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Politics Café.

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  • 20-09-2014 8:25pm
    #1
    0byme75341jo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭


    I'm sorry but in it's current form the forum is nothing but a place where AH threads are sent to die.

    I think it would work much better as a sub-forum of AH, just somewhere to separate the "normal" AH threads from the political ones. It would also make it far more accessible to casual users.

    Anyone agree? I imagine this has been discussed by admins in the past though.
    Post edited by Shield on


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    #2
    TheBeardedLady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭TheBeardedLady


    Sounds like a good idea. Haven't gone in there since it was moved. I'd be more inclined to if I could move between the two forums more easily (THAT'S how lazy I am!).


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    #3
    0byme75341jo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭0byme75341jo28


    TheBeardedLady wrote: »
    Sounds like a good idea. Haven't gone in there since it was moved. I'd be more inclined to if I could move between the two forums easier (THAT'S how lazy I am!).

    Exactly how I feel.


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    #4
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Brenda Handsome Pink wrote: »
    I imagine this has been discussed by admins in the past though.
    Over the years this topic has been discussed by many boards members, AH mods, Politics mods, Rec and Soc Cmods, and Admins. If you are serious about this topic, it was recently and extensively discussed in an AH posted thread called "Change to Charter-Please Read" that was announced and open to all boards members 5 June 2014. Please consider reading it.
    TheBeardedLady wrote: »
    Haven't gone in there since it was moved.
    "Since it was moved...?" Interesting comment from a new member. Politics Café has never been moved from another set of forums. It was founded by the Politics mods and Admins 13 June 2011 as an experiment to see if there was an interest by boards members in a politics subforum with very relaxed standards (perhaps more relaxed than AH). As with all boards forums, new and old, the members make the forum.

    Please know that all boards members, including both new September 2014 members Brenda Handsome Pink and TheBeardedLady, are very welcome to become more directly involved in the Politics Café improvement process by commenting and discussing how such improvements can be made in the existing 7 June 2014 opened thread: "FEEDBACK: Help Improve Politics Café."


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    #5
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    While it may have seemed to be a good idea to move the political style AH threads to the Politics Cafe to introduce some more population than the previous set of tumbleweed I don't think it is working. It really is looking like the place where AH threads are sent to die at this stage.

    Why that's the case, I do not know. Maybe it strikes folk as being too formal a forum?


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    #6
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    TheBeardedLady wrote: »
    I'd be more inclined to if I could move between the two forums more easily (THAT'S how lazy I am!).
    Brenda Handsome Pink wrote: »
    Exactly how I feel.

    Brilliant! Thank you both for suggesting this possible solution. As a result of your Feedback thread, the politics mods are chatting about this now. As a quick and wonderfully "lazy" solution to increasing member awareness and participation, could Politics Café have an obvious link in AH? We have other forums with links between categories like this. Then it would not make any difference if the Politics Café first appeared under AH or Politics, because it would appear simultaneously under both.

    What do the AH mods/Cmods think? Good idea or not? It might reduce the number of threads transferred in the future?


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    #7
    0byme75341jo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭0byme75341jo28


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Brilliant! Thank you both for suggesting this possible solution. As a result of your Feedback thread, the politics mods are chatting about this now. As a quick and wonderfully "lazy" solution to increasing member awareness and participation, could Politics Café have an obvious link in AH? We have other forums with links between categories like this. Then it would not make any difference if the Politics Café first appeared under AH or Politics, because it would appear simultaneously under both.

    What do the AH mods/Cmods think? Good idea or not? It might reduce the number of threads transferred in the future?

    Sorry but I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic :pac:

    I do think it would help though :P


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    #8
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Brenda Handsome Pink wrote: »
    Sorry but I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic :pac:

    I do think it would help though :P

    Not intended to be sarcastic in the slightest about this proposed AH and Politics simultaneous link for Politics Café. I think it would be very practical and useful too. Thanks again for suggesting it. We need more suggestions like this on behalf of our members.


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    #9
    0byme75341jo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭0byme75341jo28


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Not intended to be sarcastic in the slightest about this proposed AH and Politics simultaneous link for Politics Café. I think it would be very practical and useful too. Thanks again for suggesting it. We need more suggestions like this on behalf of our members.

    :D:D:D

    I feel useful :pac:


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    #10
    Vexorg
    Registered Users Posts: 4,897 ✭✭✭Vexorg


    Down with this sort of useful feedback....

    And down with mods trying to find a useful compromise..

    :)


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    #11
    Ruu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,622 ✭✭✭Ruu


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Brilliant! Thank you both for suggesting this possible solution. As a result of your Feedback thread, the politics mods are chatting about this now. As a quick and wonderfully "lazy" solution to increasing member awareness and participation, could Politics Café have an obvious link in AH? We have other forums with links between categories like this. Then it would not make any difference if the Politics Café first appeared under AH or Politics, because it would appear simultaneously under both.

    What do the AH mods/Cmods think? Good idea or not? It might reduce the number of threads transferred in the future?

    Nein to a subforum, Politics is where political threads should go. Can bring a horse to water and all that.

    That said, something like below, except After Hours underneath and Politics Cafe in the Links section above? While Politics Cafe isn't a subforum of After Hours, the linking might help the lazy. That might work.

    bi54b9.png


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    #12
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Ruu wrote: »
    That said, something like below, except After Hours underneath and Politics Cafe in the Links section above? While Politics Cafe isn't a subforum of After Hours, the linking might help the lazy. That might work.
    That would be grand Ruu!


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    #13
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,703 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    P_1 wrote: »
    While it may have seemed to be a good idea to move the political style AH threads to the Politics Cafe to introduce some more population than the previous set of tumbleweed I don't think it is working. It really is looking like the place where AH threads are sent to die at this stage.

    Why that's the case, I do not know. Maybe it strikes folk as being too formal a forum?

    The problem is most posters think the whole site revolves around AH.

    We are nearly all guilty of this.

    I would love to see a % of where each poster posts most, there really would be only one winner.


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    #14
    0byme75341jo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭0byme75341jo28


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    The problem is most posters think the whole site revolves around AH.

    We are nearly all guilty of this.

    I would love to see a % of where each poster posts most, there really would be only one winner.

    Currently only about 10% of active users and guests are viewing AH, I imagine the soccer forum is a more active forum.


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    #15
    TheBeardedLady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭TheBeardedLady


    Black Swan wrote: »
    "Since it was moved...?" Interesting comment from a new member. Politics Café has never been moved from another set of forums. It was founded by the Politics mods and Admins 13 June 2011 as an experiment to see if there was an interest by boards members in a politics subforum with very relaxed standards (perhaps more relaxed than AH). As with all boards forums, new and old, the members make the forum.

    Please know that all boards members, including both new September 2014 members The Prince of Cumberland and TheBeardedLady, are very welcome to become more directly involved in the Politics Café improvement process by commenting and discussing how such improvements can be made in the existing 7 June 2014 opened thread: "FEEDBACK: Help Improve Politics Café."


    I'm a rereg (but I come in peace!). Posting on here since November 2007. I meant since the political posts from AH have moved.


    Your idea sounds alright to me!


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    #16
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,703 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Brenda Handsome Pink wrote: »
    Currently only about 10% of active users and guests are viewing AH, I imagine the soccer forum is a more active forum.
    Oh yeah, you could be right on that actually,.:o


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    #17
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    TheBeardedLady wrote: »
    I'm a rereg (but I come in peace!). Posting on here since November 2007. I meant since the political posts from AH have moved.

    Your idea sounds alright to me!
    Fair play. You too helped us start rethinking and improving the Politics Café here in Feedback. Both AH and Politics mods are now chatting about it, and a Politics Café link in AH may result as one solution. It may not be a silver bullet, but many little improvements overtime can make for a big change later. Thanks.


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    #18
    Dav
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,840 ✭✭✭Dav


    Brenda Handsome Pink wrote: »
    Currently only about 10% of active users and guests are viewing AH, I imagine the soccer forum is a more active forum.

    Not even close.

    AH is 14-15% of the site and is actively hurting the rest of Boards. I'm not being dramatic or over exaggerating, the more posts AH draws into it's black hole, the more the rest of the site suffers. If topics that we have dedicated forums for were simply moved to those forums, this wouldn't be an issue, but when you move topics, the people don't move with them, so we're in a real catch22 here with AH.

    The decision to take all political content out of AH and move it to where it belongs is just a start. Boards is bigger than AH, the problem is, AH has absolutely no idea that the rest of the site exists.

    This isn't criticism or negativity by the way, it's the way the thing has grown over the last 10 years from when AH was initially the place to "keep all the loons together" to now being where all discussion happens.

    But our entire format is and has always been that each topic of discussion has a forum and people who frequent AH don't seem to know or realise that for whatever reasons. It's not like we can force you to change your minds and suddenly start using the site as it was intended overnight (nor would we try) :D However, I would urge you to give some thought to finding the right place to post your discussions rather than just posting in AH because that's where you always post. I'd wager that 90% of the posts currently active on the forum have a "proper" home elsewhere on Boards.

    Again, I'm not criticising or complaining - but the trend worries me (cause it's my job to be worried about these sorts of things). Post count numbers across the site are down yet on the increase in AH.

    I'd dearly love to know why people don't think "I want to talk about the Economy, I'll go to the Irish Economy forum" etc, but I come from a time when this was how the tubes worked. Forums are an extension of Usenet. It's time has passed, but the rising popularity of Reddit and our increasing traffic (post count numbers may have dropped across the rest of the site, but overall are more or less level month to month and our visitor numbers are always rising) tells us that forums are still very relevant, but that there's scope to improve the way the content is organised.

    I'd love to hear what people think of this subject.


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    #19
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,552 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Dav wrote: »

    I'd dearly love to know why people don't think "I want to talk about the Economy, I'll go to the Irish Economy forum" etc, but I come from a time when this was how the tubes worked. Forums are an extension of Usenet. It's time has passed, but the rising popularity of Reddit and our increasing traffic (post count numbers may have dropped across the rest of the site, but overall are more or less level month to month and our visitor numbers are always rising) tells us that forums are still very relevant, but that there's scope to improve the way the content is organised.

    I'd love to hear what people think of this subject.

    For me, it's just a case of enjoying the range of topics that After Hours offers. You can find some very interesting and thought-provoking threads on topics like euthanasia (for example) beside a lighthearted (for the most part) thread on, say, what people you'd like to punch in the face.

    That's a variety that I would guess other forums can't offer (I'm imagining because I haven't really been to them). If posters have a deep and abiding interest in politics or business or history or whatever, and aren't looking for that kind of variety, they'll probably end up in the appropriate forum.

    In my case, I don't really have these deep interests in a specific topic. I might find a thread on the economy interesting, but I'm not sure I want to go to a place where the economy is all that's talked about. The things that I have an interest in pop up regularly enough in AH to satisfy me, and I'm not missing any discussion on other topics either.

    Again, I'm imagining here, but I would guess that for posters who don't have these specific and abiding interests, but prefer to pick an mix, dipping a toe into some serious threads while still joking about in others, AH is an appropriate place to be.


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    #20
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    You get a very different style of debate in AH to any other part of the forum, and a greater variety of views due to the number of people (and due to light-touch-moderation).

    For political/economic topics, the 'light-touch' (or 'no-touch') moderation, also allows arguments to win/lose on their own merits, better than any other forum - but with the cost of really easy trolling, which effectively ends useful debate a lot of the time.

    Viewing multiple different forums takes time, and posters will not (no matter how much they are prodded to) view the less popular forums in large numbers, unless they do begin to become popular.
    So, the more you move everything off into a less popular forum, and fail to increase the numbers posting there, the more it really does become a 'place for topics to die'.

    For instance, 99% of economic discussion never happens on the Economics forum, and anything relegated to that forum, does go there to die - nobody visits it.


    The only thing I can think of, that 'might' even begin to make a dent in this problem, is giving users a way of creating 'custom' forum views, which include posts from multiple forums:
    It would look exactly like a typical forum (such as After Hours), but users could customize it to seamlessly contain the posts of several different forums at once, so they would not have to visit a ton of small forums, to see all of the topics they are interested in.

    There are probably lots of technical problems with getting something like this working though - but it would be an effective way of getting people posting in lots of different smaller/topical forums, without them having to ever click through them individually (which it's doubtful any significant percentage of people will do).


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    #21
    Dav
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,840 ✭✭✭Dav


    What you're suggesting is kinda what I've been trying to think about too and I agree that bringing all discussions on a topic under a more visible list rather than having to visit multiple forums to see it all is a better user experience and I think addresses the "where does content go" issue quite nicely.

    Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking it :D


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    #22
    TheBeardedLady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭TheBeardedLady


    I only post in three forums max. I post in AH the most because I don't have to commit myself to one thread and I use Boards for relaxation, not to engage in intellectual debate on on subject. If I don't like something someone said, or if I don't like the way the argument is going or fed up making the same point repeatedly or whatever, I can easily leave that one and log into another and perhaps log in again when the topic interests me more and in the meantime, I'm only a click away discussing something totally unrelated making it easier to pop back in again.
    I'd dearly love to know why people don't think "I want to talk about the Economy, I'll go to the Irish Economy forum" etc, but I come from a time when this was how the tubes worked.

    I simply don't come on to Boards with the intention of talking about anything specifically. I use Boards like I would any website. I flick through the threads on AH 'till something grabs me and I think that's how most AH regulars are. I rarely spend long posting in one thread unless it's something I feel particularly annoyed/passionate about. Even when there were political threads, I might only make one comment max on it and I liked the fact that it could go off on a tangent about something not related to the subject whereas I assume more specialised forums would be more strict about that.

    I don't have an interest in lengthy posts and multi-quoting and backing up my point of view with references etc. and even if Politics Cafe is more relaxed, again I never log on here with the intention of sticking to one subject, so won't make a beeline in that direction.

    That's how I use it anyway even if it's not what you want to hear, maybe. Hope that's helpful.


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    #23
    Dav
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,840 ✭✭✭Dav


    Very helpful, thank you.

    Building a more accurate profile and pattern of behaviour of how people want to use the site means that whenever we make changes, it's in the direction people want, so thanks for taking some time to help.


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    #24
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,131 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    AH's massive userbase; its quick moving nature; its diversity; and its informal nature make it great imo. What you can do about this I have no idea, but moving a topic to a dedicated forum doesn't interest me. It isn't the topic that attracts me to AH, it's the unique nature of discussion on the topic once it is within AH that I like.


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    #25
    TheBeardedLady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭TheBeardedLady


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    AH's massive userbase; its quick moving nature; its diversity; and its informal nature make it great imo. What you can do about this I have no idea, but moving a topic to a dedicated forum doesn't interest me. It isn't the topic that attracts me to AH, it's the unique nature of discussion on the topic once it is within AH that I like.

    That's it. It's more HOW it's discussed in AH that appeals (and drives me potty in equal measures - I'm a masochist I guess).


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    #26
    0byme75341jo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭0byme75341jo28


    There's hundreds of forums where I could discuss politics/games/books/football, but AH is unique, I don't think there's any other place on the internet that's quite like it, no Irish based one anyway. It's like a little community of interesting Irish men and women :D That's the main reason I like it.


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    #27
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,470 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Dav wrote: »
    I'd dearly love to know why people don't think "I want to talk about the Economy, I'll go to the Irish Economy forum" etc, but I come from a time when this was how the tubes worked.

    That's actually a good forum to use as an example because Politics and it's sub forums are very strictly moderated in comparison to AH (and rightly so in general). But it just means that you can't have a 'casual' conversation about the topic, like you would down in the pub or in AH. There too much of a call to be an expert of the subject with infinite backed up sources. Same thing when it comes to humorous or throw away comments, many forums will simply card you for them, AH doesn't (just like down in the pub) and people can have a laugh and keep going with the conversation.


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    #28
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    TheBeardedLady wrote: »
    I don't have an interest in lengthy posts and multi-quoting and backing up my point of view with references etc. and even if Politics Cafe is more relaxed, again I never log on here with the intention of sticking to one subject, so won't make a beeline in that direction.
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    ...Politics and it's sub forums are very strictly moderated in comparison to AH (and rightly so in general). But it just means that you can't have a 'casual' conversation about the topic, like you would down in the pub or in AH. There too much of a call to be an expert of the subject with infinite backed up sources. Same thing when it comes to humorous or throw away comments, many forums will simply card you for them, AH doesn't (just like down in the pub) and people can have a laugh and keep going with the conversation.

    Below quoted from the Politics Café charter. Suggested improvements that may attract more members would be appreciated:
    Black Swan wrote: »
    Purpose:
    This forum allows for the casual and relaxed discussion of politics, as if meeting virtually in a Café atmosphere over tea or coffee with friends. Political humour, friendly banter, cartoons, pictures, videos, smiley faces, and other forms of free expression are encouraged, provided that they do not violate the below Terms of Use and guidelines. Posters may wander off-topic just like they might do with friends while chatting in a Café.

    Politics-lite + (more) free expression + humour = Politics Café

    Discussions that emphasize serious and rigourous content, sometimes with citations and links for support, should be conducted in one of the other 7 Politics forums.

    If the Politics Café appeared as a link in the AH forum where all the threads appear, would more members click on it and post?


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    #29
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,131 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Black Swan wrote: »
    If the Politics Café appeared as a link in the AH forum where all the threads appear, would more members click on it and post?

    I wouldn't personally. That's not a slight on the effort you're putting in here (par for the course for yourself!) to take on board feedback and tailor it to a 'politics light' audience. It's just that I know the random AH horde won't follow the link.

    This really is a case of appreciating the nature of an AH conversation. If I want to discuss a subject seriously and engage in a rigorous debate it isn't where I'd go. But it's always fascinating to compare and contrast that serious conversation with a few pages of AH on the same subject.

    I used to dislike AH for all the reasons I appreciate it now. It's a one of a kind resource that provides a window into various throwaway and half baked Irish perceptions on the happenings of the day. You are doing a great job attempting to take feedback on board here, genuinely, but you can't offset the reality that once an AH thread is redirected elsewhere it becomes a very different animal.

    If it was technically possible to categorise AH threads so that they appear in two places at once - i.e. in AH and economics for example - with no overt warnings or change in the appearance of the thread you might be onto something. Mix the AH horde with the topic specialists. There would be governance issues there and an abrupt clash of perspectives, but the specialists would know that they can click out from the large strange thread to discuss the topic more stringently in their 'home' thread. This would have the dual affect of keeping AH what it is while redistributing that footfall across the site.


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    #30
    Lovely Bloke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,748 ✭✭✭✭Lovely Bloke


    it's simple, AH is a shoot the shít kind of place, you can pop into and out of conversations, talk shíte for a while then head away on to the next thread about a topic unrelated. Nobody really cares if your opinion is based on a solid working knowledge of the topic, or something you half remember reading in a two sentence "what a wacky world" vox-pop in the Metro three weeks ago.

    I'm picking a forum at random here, but lets say there was an AH thread about the recent discovery of a huge Brontosaurus skeleton down in Argentina, wow how amazing, it was huge! Check it for DNA, let's build Bronto-Park and all go for a jaunt.

    Move that to Paleontology, and you'll more than likely get some university professor type post some peer-reviewed article saying why there'd unlikely be DNA in the thing anyway, and it's not a skeleton you know, it's a fossil. It's not even a Brontosaurus you know, that term is obsolete.

    Bang, all the "fun" is gone from the thread. Nobody cares about the real details, the scholarly implications or the name of the damn thing, it's a feckin great big dinosaur for gods sake, let's build a park and have an old beardy tour guide, and kids using Linux!

    Move that thread to Paleontology, and you run the risk of losing the actual scholarly debate as the tone and general theme of the forum is diluted to lowest common denominator discussion.

    It's NOT the fault of AH that posts are down in other parts of Boards, that's the wrong place to look. Not everyone wants to have in-depth discussions about everything, not everyone can either.


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    #31
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Below quoted from the Politics Café charter. Suggested improvements that may attract more members would be appreciated:


    If the Politics Café appeared as a link in the AH forum where all the threads appear, would more members click on it and post?

    Yes, I would.

    Honestly, I'm lazy. Bar the handful of forums I subscribe to, i don't go looking. I click on AH because there's always something worth posting on in there. If there was a link to politics cafe, I'd be more inclined to go into it.


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