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Daughter forced to believe in God

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    #332
    Red Nissan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭Red Nissan


    vibe666 wrote: »
    regardless of what type or denomination of school it is or whether she has a baptismal cert or not, or for any other reasoning that is her constitutional right as an Irish citizen, full stop, end of discussion.

    What is her constitutional right?


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    #333
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    StopYa wrote: »
    and the guy saying u cant get into school if your not a catholic where do u get this rubbish i went to school wit prodestants and muslims and they just read their own book, or did wat ever but didnt upset the whole class, while we did re

    Yeah I mean its not like catholic ethos schools rejecting non-catholics has ever made the news http://www.cinews.ie/article.php?artid=9089

    Or this http://www.magicmum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=568741 (includes texts from Irish Times)

    Its not like the Ombudsman for Children thinks that such policy's should be removed either, or that the Ombudsman has slammed a catholic ethos school for using its "ethos" to reject a pregnant teenager either http://www.thejournal.ie/wholly-unacceptable-ombudsman-slams-school-that-refused-pregnant-teen-434462-Apr2012/

    Yeah your right, i guess its not a problem at all
    :rolleyes:

    Anymore uneducated stuff you want to post?


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    #334
    IITYWYBMAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭IITYWYBMAD


    Red Nissan wrote: »
    What is her constitutional right?

    She has a constitutional right to an Education.


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    #335
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    Red Nissan wrote: »
    What is her constitutional right?

    Article 44.2.4 of the Irish constitution, where the State’s duty to provide for free primary education is being discharged through financial support for a denominationally controlled school, that school must respect the right of individual pupils not to receive religious instruction.


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    #336
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    StopYa wrote: »
    vibe666 , I couldnt care less at this stage , as this thread will go on forever and not go anywhere, why dont ye just round up all the people who have a problem, with cathloic funded schools and lobby in the dail for more educate together instead of spouting ****e here and upsetting the poor teacher and principal on the ground, as it is a small minority at the end of the day who have a problem with re, and the guy saying u cant get into school if your not a catholic where do u get this rubbish i went to school wit prodestants and muslims and they just read their own book, or did wat ever but didnt upset the whole class, while we did re

    You seem like a really nice person, but your views are quite "moronic"
    (see I'm not attacking the poster :))
    Getting the thread back on track, it all started with a 7yr old having a bad experience in school, one where the teacher and principal could have handled much better, like your own admission "i went to school wit prodestants and muslims and they just read their own book", I couldnt ave sad it batter meself.
    The core of the issue is Catholic schools have an underlying ethos of "play by our rules". Which seems to be demonstrated by the OP's daughters experience. All people here are adding is that day is coming to a close and it will, in time, change.


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    #337
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    StopYa wrote: »
    vibe666 , I couldnt care less at this stage , as this thread will go on forever and not go anywhere, why dont ye just round up all the people who have a problem, with cathloic funded schools and lobby in the dail for more educate together instead of spouting ****e here and upsetting the poor teacher and principal on the ground, as it is a small minority at the end of the day who have a problem with re, and the guy saying u cant get into school if your not a catholic where do u get this rubbish i went to school wit prodestants and muslims and they just read their own book, or did wat ever but didnt upset the whole class, while we did re

    would you like to have a little break, you seem quite stressed out and you aren't being very christian at all about any of this.


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    #338
    StopYa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭StopYa


    Ill say a few prays for ye God bless ye


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    #339
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    I think the O.P gave the school the benefit of the doubt and more credit than they deserved when he enrolled his daughter. O.P, you probably hadn't exerienced the kind of carry-on that goes on in some provincial catholic national schools.
    Frankly, the behaviour of some teachers and studentss in religious schools is nauseating-on the one hand, the teacher might lead the students in happy-clappy religious sing-songs, or prayer rituals that look to an atheist onlooker like a cult ritual, but the teachers mask seems to slip when a student doesn't appear to be in tune with that heavily orchestrated daily religious routine, or when a student dares to ask a question.


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    #340
    Gumbi
    Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    StopYa wrote: »
    Ill say a few prays for ye God bless ye

    Say hi to Krishna for me.


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    #341
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Gerry T wrote: »
    You will first have to be offered a place in the school, that could be your problem, depending on the demand in your area.
    If they have only say 60 places and there are 80 children, then 20 will not be going. If you don't have a baptismal cert will put you down that list I'm afraid.

    Thanks - Not a problem in our area.
    More places than kids at the moment and births are down countrywide the past few years so I don't imagine an unusual peak in 2017 and 2019.


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    #342
    ?Cee?view
    Registered Users Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭?Cee?view


    First off; I've read the whole thread so don't either "side" accuse me of not having read it if you happen to disagree with me.

    I think the OP's daughter is a very lucky girl to have a father who clearly cares so much for her and approaches matters in a considered manner. Kudos to you OP for bringing up your daughter on your own in what must be challenging circumstances.

    This thread demonstrates something though. This religion issue is so vexatious that sides are taken, principles adopted and sometimes the needs of the children become secondary. People here on both sides are proposing "solutions" which are quite drastic and which would have an unsettling influence on any child. Moving the child again or tackling the school head on are not going to do the child any good.

    OP, I think you're dead right to have emailed the Principal so that the matter is on record. However, I do think you have made a mistake by not following that up with by calling into the school in person; and I accept that that's been difficult for you, but get down now to them maybe explaining that you had wanted to "chat it through" in person but couldn't get down. For the sake of your daughter, you need to take the heat (if any) out of this situation. Try to have a calm discussion with the school. Let them know that while you accept that they may have their beliefs, you have confidence in them as professionals to be able to treat your daughter appropriately. Yes, they acted badly, but you need that to have been an isolated incident and building a relationship with the school will go to ensure that.


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    #343
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    ?Cee?view wrote: »
    First off; I've read the whole thread so don't either "side" accuse me of not having read it if you happen to disagree with me.

    I think the OP's daughter is a very lucky girl to have a father who clearly cares so much for her and approaches matters in a considered manner. Kudos to you OP for bringing up your daughter on your own in what must be challenging circumstances.

    This thread demonstrates something though. This religion issue is so vexatious that sides are taken, principles adopted and sometimes the needs of the children become secondary. People here on both sides are proposing "solutions" which are quite drastic and which would have an unsettling influence on any child. Moving the child again or tackling the school head on are not going to do the child any good.

    OP, I think you're dead right to have emailed the Principal so that the matter is on record. However, I do think you have made a mistake by not following that up with by calling into the school in person; and I accept that that's been difficult for you, but get down now to them maybe explaining that you had wanted to "chat it through" in person but couldn't get down. For the sake of your daughter, you need to take the heat (if any) out of this situation. Try to have a calm discussion with the school. Let them know that while you accept that they may have their beliefs, you have confidence in them as professionals to be able to treat your daughter appropriately. Yes, they acted badly, but you need that to have been an isolated incident and building a relationship with the school will go to ensure that.

    I have since spoken to the Principal. I went into quite some detail in my email explaining the situation and how it has taken a bit of time to resolve. I did mention before that when I previously met with the Principal that she seemed like a very nice person and that I was sure a resonable solution could be found. Having spoken to her briefly this afternoon, I am going to pop in for a few minutes in the morning on my way to work, and I am sure we can sort it out.


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    #344
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    bajer101 wrote: »
    I have since spoken to the Principal. I went into quite some detail in my email explaining the situation and how it has taken a bit of time to resolve. I did mention before that when I previously met with the Principal that she seemed like a very nice person and that I was sure a resonable solution could be found. Having spoken to her briefly this afternoon, I am going to pop in for a few minutes in the morning on my way to work, and I am sure we can sort it out.

    Great. I don't see why you didn't raise this issue with her when you met her originally. I would have thought that would be the perfect time to clarify any particular wishes you had regarding your daughter's education. As someone said earlier on this thread, they're not mind readers.

    Best of luck with it.


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    #345
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Great. I don't see why you didn't raise this issue with her when you met her originally. I would have thought that would be the perfect time to clarify any particular wishes you had regarding your daughter's education. As someone said earlier on this thread, they're not mind readers.

    Best of luck with it.

    It wasn't an issue when I first met with the Principal I wasn't originally objecting to my daughter being taught religion and making her Communion. It only became an issue when she took it upon herself to say that she didn't believe in God. Things escalated a bit from there and that is why I started this thread asking for advice.


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    #346
    Red Nissan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭Red Nissan


    My view is that all children should be reared without any religion untill they are 12 years of age.

    Belief, and Religion are not necessarily compatible, I know some fervent god believing people who don't follow any religion at all.

    What I believe in does not matter, but what a religion believes in can be the law of the land. Crazy.

    Thanks for the post OP.


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    #347
    Harry Angstrom
    Registered Users Posts: 19,351 ✭✭✭✭Harry Angstrom


    Option 5: Send her back to the Educate Together school.

    I mean, you send her to a Catholic school and then you're offended that she is taught the Catholic religion? Who would've thunk it??


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    #348
    ?Cee?view
    Registered Users Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭?Cee?view


    Harry Angstrom wrote: »
    Option 5: Send her back to the Educate Together school.

    I mean, you send her to a Catholic school and then you're offended that she is taught the Catholic religion. Who would've thunk it??

    Option 6: Read where the OP explained that's not an option


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    #349
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Harry Angstrom wrote: »
    Option 5: Send her back to the Educate Together school.

    I mean, you send her to a Catholic school and then you're offended that she is taught the Catholic religion? Who would've thunk it??

    option 6: READTHETHREAD


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    #350
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds. That is if you insist on keeping her there. Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from ;)


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    #351
    EunanMac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭EunanMac


    Gerry T wrote: »
    In fairness to the school they gave the parents of catholic kids the option to keep their kids back on a week day for an extra Hr to do catholic religion class, this was organised by the parents association but supported by the school (gave free classrooms, heating, opening longer each day, accommodating communion and confirmation etc...etc...)

    Presumably to avail of this in a Protestant school, Catholic parents, who want their Children taught Catholicism should inform the school of their beliefs and desire, rather than leave it up to the school to guess and then complain afterwards they were taught Protestant beliefs.
    Gerry T wrote: »
    The School also accommodated the kids to leave the class during the proddy RE class. Why can't catholic schools do likewise ?

    Catholic schools do.


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    #352
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    lukesmom wrote: »
    It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds. That is if you insist on keeping her there. Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from ;)

    Do you think the default position of children is that there is a god? Which god/s would that be?


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    #353
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    lukesmom wrote: »
    It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds. That is if you insist on keeping her there. Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from ;)

    The only reason seven years old believe in God, Santa or the tooth fairy is because someone has told them they exist not because they've come to that conclusion themselves.


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    #354
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    lukesmom wrote: »
    It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear.

    It's not a pity at all - I am delighted she said it. Not just because it demonstrated critical thinking, but also because it showed she was capable of voicing a dissenting opinion.
    Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds.

    Are you familiar with the concept of irony?
    That is if you insist on keeping her there. Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from ;)

    I wonder where Luke got the idea of God from? Tell me, is he a Muslim, Hindu, Jew, Protestant....? I can assure you my daughter has much more freedom in choosing what she wants to believe than Luke.


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    #355
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    lukesmom wrote: »
    It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds. That is if you insist on keeping her there. Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from ;)

    I think your right, OP you should get your 7yr old and tell her that if she has an opinion on anything, that doesn't conform to the majority she should just keep it to herself and not ask any questions. It's not about learning or questioning or anything like. Its about repeating what the teacher says....got it ?
    The OP did say he was happy to let his daughter do her communion, it seems he's not forcing his belief system on her. Why do you find it hard to believe a 7yr old would stop believing in santa, angels, pixies, god, the easter bunny. They all have magical powers and no one has ever seen one.


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    #356
    ?Cee?view
    Registered Users Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭?Cee?view


    lukesmom wrote: »
    It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds. That is if you insist on keeping her there. Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from ;)

    You do realise that this isn't just some sort of hypothetical internet argument? This is a real father, a real child, getting on with life. Why are such loaded comments ("blurt", "impressionable") necessary? How do they help the father or child in this case?

    I've a good friend who's a Monsignor. One of his favourite phrases is "God protect us from religious fanatics". There seem to be quite a few here who sacrifice Christian ideals in their zealotry.


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    #357
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    lukesmom wrote: »
    It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds.

    Yeah silly child saying things that don't go in-line with the catholic ethos....I mean how dare they!.
    :rolleyes:

    I suppose next you'll be suggesting that a child with divorced parents shouldn't say it in class or a child with gay parents shouldn't ever mention it in school.

    After all, it might give impressionable young 7 year olds the wrong idea and we don't want that.
    Amazed she said she doesn't believe in God at. 7 years of age, I wonder wnere she got that idea from ;)

    Even more amazing that children at the age of 5 say they believe in a god and Jesus, wouldn't be anything to do with their parents blindingly telling them they exist?
    :rolleyes:


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    #358
    aaakev
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭aaakev


    Fair play to your daughter op!


    I feel sorry for Luke......


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    #359
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    lukesmom wrote: »
    It's a pity your daughter had to blurt that out for all in the class to hear. Perhaps she might agree to not talk about her 'non beliefs' in front of a classroom of impressionable 7 year olds.

    Indeed it might cause other curious kids to start asking awkward questions,is there really a god, why should I believe in her etc,start an intelligent discussion even.

    Much better just tell them what they have to believe in and that there will be negative consequences if they dont, its the christian way.


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    #360
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Indeed it might cause other curious kids to start asking awkward questions,is there really a god, why should I believe in her etc,start an intelligent discussion even.

    Much better just tell them what they have to believe in and that there will be negative consequences if they dont, its the christian way.

    Children need to see the teacher resonding calmly and reasonably to a differing opinion. I pity all of the Lukes.


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    #361
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    Children need to see the teacher resonding calmly and reasonably to a differing opinion. I pity all of the Lukes.

    Suffer little children i think is the christian phrase that seems to fit.


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