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Ryanair To The USA

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    #92
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,114 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Calina wrote: »


    And they weren't even trying to fly across the Atlantic.

    Exactly, inter-europe flights are tough.


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    #93
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Exactly, inter-europe flights are tough.

    And you think long haul transatlantic isn't?


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    #94
    boeingboy
    Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭boeingboy


    Calina wrote: »
    And you think long haul transatlantic isn't?

    From ireland transatlantic to East Coast ain't long haul. Medium at most.


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    #95
    relaxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭relaxed


    boeingboy wrote: »
    From ireland transatlantic to East Coast ain't long haul. Medium at most.

    6 hours is generally accepted as long haul so while I agree its at the low end if the long haul scale it still fits the definition.

    In reality once you are in the air, read the magazine, watch a movie, eat your meal, use the jacks, have a snooze and you are there!


    No real need for full length beds in business class etc.


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    #96
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Exactly, inter-europe flights are tough.

    You really don't know much about this industry, do you?


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    #97
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,114 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    MYOB wrote: »
    You really don't know much about this industry, do you?

    Did I say trans-atlantic flights were not?


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    #98
    bikeman1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    My rule of thumb for describing flights is:

    0-4 hours - Short Haul
    4-8 hours - Medium Haul
    8-12 hours - Long Haul
    12+ hours - Ultra Long Haul

    So Ireland to East Coast USA is Medium haul.


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    #99
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,114 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    bikeman1 wrote: »
    My rule of thumb for describing flights is:

    0-4 hours - Short Haul
    4-8 hours - Medium Haul
    8-12 hours - Long Haul
    12+ hours - Ultra Long Haul

    So Ireland to East Coast USA is Medium haul.

    Naa not in my book.

    0-3 Short Haul
    3-6 Medium Haul
    6-10 Long Haul
    10+ Ultra Long Haul.

    Have you even gone to the canary Islands? They are not short haul.


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    #100
    orionm_73
    Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭orionm_73


    No real need for full length beds in business class etc.

    Even when all your competitors have them or are planning on installing them soon? There may not be a 'need' for them but without them an airline may not be able to charge a premium for its business class.

    But remember you have overnight flights on the way back from the USA, so flat beds are deemed as a 'need' by the passengers who have to maximise their sleep on the even shorter return sector.


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    #101
    relaxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭relaxed


    orionm_73 wrote: »
    Even when all your competitors have them or are planning on installing them soon? There may not be a 'need' for them but without them an airline may not be able to charge a premium for its business class.

    But remember you have overnight flights on the way back from the USA, so flat beds are deemed as a 'need' by the passengers who have to maximise their sleep on the even shorter return sector.

    With flights of just over 6 hours I do 't really see the need for anything better in business than a plush seat with good recline, the first and last hour is usually given over to meal service, using toilet, seat belt on for take off and landing etc., so that only leaves around 4 hours.

    I'd say part of the reason airlines are going to flat beds is New York ireland flights are put in the same bucket as us flights to uk, France and Germany which are a stretch longer but all planes get configured the same.


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    #102
    orionm_73
    Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭orionm_73


    That's all well and good assuming you want the inflight service. But given that on night flights, those travelling on business just want to get on and sleep, then lie flat beds are necessary. It's those regular high fare, paid by a business, passengers that make a flight profitable, not the leisure, special deal in business class ones. And those regular passengers will want flat beds.

    And even if your competitors only have flat beds because they use them in different markets, they still offer them and to compete you need to match their offering, because lowering your fares will affect your yield.


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    #103
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    relaxed wrote: »
    I'd say part of the reason airlines are going to flat beds is New York ireland flights are put in the same bucket as us flights to uk, France and Germany which are a stretch longer but all planes get configured the same.

    Considering EI, who don't to the UK, France or Germany TATL, are putting flat beds in I think we can discount this.

    orion there has it spot on - the eastbounds are at night, business pax are going to demand beds and if everyone else offers them and all you're offering 1980s Business (wider seats, little bit more legroom, some booze) you're not going to get any frequent custom for it. Add that to offering it out of a secondary/tertiary airport as was being proposed...


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    #104
    relaxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭relaxed


    orionm_73 wrote: »
    That's all well and good assuming you want the inflight service. But given that on night flights, those travelling on business just want to get on and sleep, then lie flat beds are necessary. It's those regular high fare, paid by a business, passengers that make a flight profitable, not the leisure, special deal in business class ones. And those regular passengers will want flat beds.

    And even if your competitors only have flat beds because they use them in different markets, they still offer them and to compete you need to match their offering, because lowering your fares will affect your yield.


    If it was as simple as all the high fare business passengers just wanting to sleep then there would be no need for any food service.

    If it was the regular high fare passenger that makes the profit then why bother with economy class at all? Surely we would see more business only airlines?

    I don't get the night flight bit either, most flights leave around 5-7pm so it's far from a given that all the high fare paying regulars will just want to go to sleep.

    Theres a complex matrix of fares, seat classes, loyalty programs, upgrades etc. at play, nothing is the be all and end all, including the need for full flat beds.


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    #105
    Jack1985
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Jack1985


    So when's the launch. :D


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    #106
    orionm_73
    Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭orionm_73


    If it was as simple as all the high fare business passengers just wanting to sleep then there would be no need for any food service

    I never said all high fare pax would not want inflight service, what I said was those that want to maximise sleep will want flat beds. Even on 6 hr flights, they will want to spend as much time asleep as possible.
    If it was the regular high fare passenger that makes the profit then why bother with economy class at all? Surely we would see more business only airlines?
    Again I never said Economy passengers don't generate profit, but the high yielding regular business class passengers are those that generate the best yield.
    I don't get the night flight bit either, most flights leave around 5-7pm so it's far from a given that all the high fare paying regulars will just want to go to sleep.

    Given that a 5-7 pm departure is 10p-12am irish time, those passengers heading straight to work/meetings will want to just go to sleep. Otherwise they arrive in Ireland with just 1-2 hrs rest. That's what I've meant all along with passengers needing to maximise their sleep
    Theres a complex matrix of fares, seat classes, loyalty programs, upgrades etc. at play, nothing is the be all and end all, including the need for full flat beds.

    And again I have not said that a flat bed is the be all and end all, but if you are to compete you either match the product or drop your fares. Loyalty programs are of little use if people aren't willing to fly with you because a competitor has a superior product. You have to remember that this is all in response to a poster who said he could make €4m in year 1 operating SNN-EWR.


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    #107
    billie1b
    Registered Users Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭billie1b


    orionm_73 wrote: »
    I never said all high fare pax would not want inflight service, what I said was those that want to maximise sleep will want flat beds. Even on 6 hr flights, they will want to spend as much time asleep as possible.


    Again I never said Economy passengers don't generate profit, but the high yielding regular business class passengers are those that generate the best yield.



    Given that a 5-7 pm departure is 10p-12am irish time, those passengers heading straight to work/meetings will want to just go to sleep. Otherwise they arrive in Ireland with just 1-2 hrs rest. That's what I've meant all along with passengers needing to maximise their sleep



    And again I have not said that a flat bed is the be all and end all, but if you are to compete you either match the product or drop your fares. Loyalty programs are of little use if people aren't willing to fly with you because a competitor has a superior product. You have to remember that this is all in response to a poster who said he could make €4m in year 1 operating SNN-EWR.

    Aer Lingus A330, 24 business class seats at €2000 one way, €48,000. 295 economy seats at €350 one way, €103,250. I think it'd be economy producing more yield


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    #108
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,114 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    billie1b wrote: »
    Aer Lingus A330, 24 business class seats at €2000 one way, €48,000. 295 economy seats at €350 one way, €103,250. I think it'd be economy producing more yield

    €350 one way? I wont be flying with you.
    An airbus will not be full every flight.

    I was the one who got a €4 million profit, although this was horribly inactive.
    I under calculated the staff and office rent. The fuel was perfectly calculated:P
    I didn't buy a good enough plane.

    I will revise the calculations tomorrow.
    All I need is the cost of renting a 767, 777 or airbus a 330.
    Per plane I will have 6 pilots and 40 cabin crew. Fuel will cost €15 milll to 20mil depending on aircraft.
    I will have 12 business seats with the reminder being economy.
    Business will average at about €1700 return and economy €350 return.

    Food and drink will earn €1million.
    Duty free will earn €0.5mil.


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    #109
    Jack1985
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Jack1985


    €350 one way? I wont be flying with you.
    An airbus will not be full every flight.

    He's referring to Aer Lingus flights? and regards the last point there L/H flights have been operating with LF's above 90% for the last few years, more than likely you'll be on a full Aer Lingus L/H flight.


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    #110
    billie1b
    Registered Users Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭billie1b


    Jack1985 wrote: »
    He's referring to Aer Lingus flights? and regards the last point there L/H flights have been operating with LF's above 90% for the last few years, more than likely you'll be on a full Aer Lingus L/H flight.

    Thanks Jack, saved myself from typing it out


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    #111
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Per plane I will have 6 pilots and 40 cabin crew. .

    Not enough, nowhere near enough. I gave you rough figures upthread.

    6 pilots gives you 2700 flying hours a year. You need 4000 per plane at a bare minimum to cover the actual flight time and delays.

    40 cabin crew on the 200+ pax 757s you are proposing gives you 7200 hours but with a very poor level of service, albeit matching what EI (alone) are doing ex SNN.
    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Food and drink will earn €1million.

    Every cent on food and drink has to be deducted from ticket revenue - it is not a profit maker; people do not fall for nickel-and-dime fares on longhaul more than once.
    Carnacalla wrote: »
    Duty free will earn €0.5mil.

    Hugely optomistic. You are dealing with profit, not turnover here.


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    #112
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,114 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Jack1985 wrote: »
    He's referring to Aer Lingus flights? and regards the last point there L/H flights have been operating with LF's above 90% for the last few years, more than likely you'll be on a full Aer Lingus L/H flight.
    Not from shannon.
    And i got €374 return to jfk recently on aer lingus (price has since rised to €422)
    Refer to my earlier post.


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    #113
    Jack1985
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Jack1985


    Not from shannon.

    Not from Shannon what? And tbh I'm not interested in your price comparisons because people are flocking in there hundreds to buy those seats and EI are reeling in the rewards of that, so you're points re: price are irrelevant.


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    #114
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,114 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Jack1985 wrote: »
    Not from Shannon what? And tbh I'm not interested in your price comparisons because people are flocking in there hundreds to buy those seats and EI are reeling in the rewards of that, so you're points re: price are irrelevant.

    Tbh i have no idea what point your trying to make.
    Idk why you started talking about lhr.
    What are they flocking in for?


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    #115
    Jack1985
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Jack1985


    Tbh i have no idea what point your trying to make.

    We share an opposite view on that one.
    Idk why you started talking about lhr.
    What are they flocking in for?

    The seats on Aer Lingus' Long/Haul flights (abbreviated L/H), which you say Aer Lingus are selling too high.


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    #116
    relaxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭relaxed


    orionm_73 wrote: »
    I never said all high fare pax would not want inflight service, what I said was those that want to maximise sleep will want flat beds. Even on 6 hr flights, they will want to spend as much time asleep as possible.


    Again I never said Economy passengers don't generate profit, but the high yielding regular business class passengers are those that generate the best yield.



    Given that a 5-7 pm departure is 10p-12am irish time, those passengers heading straight to work/meetings will want to just go to sleep. Otherwise they arrive in Ireland with just 1-2 hrs rest. That's what I've meant all along with passengers needing to maximise their sleep



    And again I have not said that a flat bed is the be all and end all, but if you are to compete you either match the product or drop your fares. Loyalty programs are of little use if people aren't willing to fly with you because a competitor has a superior product. You have to remember that this is all in response to a poster who said he could make €4m in year 1 operating SNN-EWR.

    Suggest you read your post #102 where you said the high fare passengers just want to get on and get to sleep. It's where you also said the high fare regular passenger makes the flight profitable, not the leisure, special deal passenger.


    What makes you think every high fare passenger will want to or be able able to go to sleep at 5 pm when they board a noisy plane with a not particularily comfortable strange bed and their body clock says otherwise?


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    #117
    orionm_73
    Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭orionm_73


    I have never said that ALL high fare pax will want to just get on and sleep. I've said that those that want to will want a flat bed. As for boarding a noisy plane and sleeping against body clock.. Well that's what noise cancelling earphones, flat beds etc help with. When they land @ 5am (midnight in NYC) they need to hit the ground running, and the flight will be their only chance at sleep. People do it every night on every flight. I've seen it for the past 16 years in business class cabins.


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    #118
    billie1b
    Registered Users Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭billie1b


    orionm_73 wrote: »
    That's all well and good assuming you want the inflight service. But given that on night flights, those travelling on business just want to get on and sleep, then lie flat beds are necessary. It's those regular high fare, paid by a business, passengers that make a flight profitable, not the leisure, special deal in business class ones. And those regular passengers will want flat beds.

    And even if your competitors only have flat beds because they use them in different markets, they still offer them and to compete you need to match their offering, because lowering your fares will affect your yield.

    Here's were you said it, 4th line down. Looks pretty much like you said, all business pax wanna do is get on and sleep


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    #119
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,114 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    MYOB wrote: »
    Not enough, nowhere near enough. I gave you rough figures upthread.

    6 pilots gives you 2700 flying hours a year. You need 4000 per plane at a bare minimum to cover the actual flight time and delays.

    40 cabin crew on the 200+ pax 757s you are proposing gives you 7200 hours but with a very poor level of service, albeit matching what EI (alone) are doing ex SNN.



    Every cent on food and drink has to be deducted from ticket revenue - it is not a profit maker; people do not fall for nickel-and-dime fares on longhaul more than once.



    Hugely optomistic. You are dealing with profit, not turnover here.

    How did i miss this post?

    I will try 10 pilots and 60 cabin crew.

    I am going to try a few plans.
    Including different aircrafts, dates, prices and connections.
    Wish me well. (Isn't the vat 13.5%?)


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    #120
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Don't forget to factor in your leasing repayments, maintenance reserves, spares holding and support contract, engineering support (those guys don't come cheap) at both ends, crew accommodation, plus you need to factor in your manning levels to allow for annual leave/sickness/training, stores/office accommodation (airside real estate is also pretty expensive), ground handling support, ramp vans, marketing, advertising, web support plus a whole host of other costs you haven't considered.
    Then when you've done all that you can double it because you're going to need (at least) one other aircraft otherwise you'll lose the service if the A/C is grounded for any reason or every time your A/C is on the ground for scheduled maintenance.
    Ask yourself, can you name any airline that operates with only one A/C in it's fleet?
    If you have only one A/C and it goes AOG, you will wipe out your profits in leasing in replacement A/C, putting up stranded pax in hotels and trying to rescue your schedule, if you don't look after your pax your airline won't survive the reputational damage...


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    #121
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,838 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    How did i miss this post?

    I will try 10 pilots and 60 cabin crew.

    I am going to try a few plans.
    Including different aircrafts, dates, prices and connections.
    Wish me well. (Isn't the vat 13.5%?)


    You haven't got a bulls notion what you are talking about. Pure BS fantasy thread. You speak almost with a degree of arrogance and are completly dimissive of those here with a greater first hand knowledge notion of this business.. Total air of self importance and authority of the airline business but you are clearly ignorant of the workings and requirements of airline operations. I don't think MOL or Mueller will be beating down your door looking for your 'expert fantasy notions' anytime soon.


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