A thread I've wanted to make for a very long time....Medugorje

Kivaro · 18-04-2014 4:36pm

Adamantium wrote: »

...............
My first thought was bronze sweating in the heat, that seems very unlikely though.

Miracle, Miracle, Miracle, but millions of little babies die of hunger in excruciating pain each year .....

Jesus wept.

Brian Shanahan · 18-04-2014 8:18pm

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Believing god does not exist is actually,a belief,though perhaps you're more comfortable calling it an opinion. Ultimately,from a place of sheer logic, it is not capable of ABSOLUTE proof.

And again you are wrong. Just because we don't have proof either way (and in fact we'll never have full proof of non-existence of any god {we have proof that YHWH doesn't exist, the fact that he is both logically and physically impossible is proof enough, but there may be some other being to which god is applicable that can exists}, as we can never prove a universal negative), but the fact that we cannot prove this does not matter.

And here's why, "there is no god" is the null hypothesis, it does not change any condition or any characteristic of the universe, that we know and understand, therefore it is not necessary to test it to be accepted. On the other hand the existence of any god would be a significant change to our current understanding of reality It is simply necessary that no other competing hypothesis can stand up to proper scientific scrutiny. And there has not been one single god hypothesis that has been able to stand up to even the most cursory examination, never mind the kind of scientific tests that, for example, the theory of evolution or general relativity have faced and so far passed.

It is not up to me to disprove god, but for you to prove it. And there has not been one single shred of evidence presented in the history of, well, history to even indicate that any god is possible, never mind necessary.

Brian Shanahan · 18-04-2014 8:38pm

goose2005 wrote: »

Don't forget all the residues from people kissing/touching the statue with sweaty hands

Ooh, I like that. Another explanation infinitely more plausible than goddidit.

Zubeneschamali · 18-04-2014 9:07pm

Adamantium wrote: »

I've seen ****e in that place that would cause anybody to believe in God

Oddly, folks who already believe in God, like Bishop Zanic of Mostar and his successor, Bishop Peric, fully investigated the phenomena and decided that nothing supernatural was taking place.

_Whimsical_ · 18-04-2014 11:03pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

And again you are wrong. Just because we don't have proof either way (and in fact we'll never have full proof of non-existence of any god {we have proof that YHWH doesn't exist, the fact that he is both logically and physically impossible is proof enough, but there may be some other being to which god is applicable that can exists}, as we can never prove a universal negative), but the fact that we cannot prove this does not matter.

And here's why, "there is no god" is the null hypothesis, it does not change any condition or any characteristic of the universe, that we know and understand, therefore it is not necessary to test it to be accepted. On the other hand the existence of any god would be a significant change to our current understanding of reality It is simply necessary that no other competing hypothesis can stand up to proper scientific scrutiny. And there has not been one single god hypothesis that has been able to stand up to even the most cursory examination, never mind the kind of scientific tests that, for example, the theory of evolution or general relativity have faced and so far passed.

It is not up to me to disprove god, but for you to prove it. And there has not been one single shred of evidence presented in the history of, well, history to even indicate that any god is possible, never mind necessary.

I don't agree with your points completely. Whether God exists or not is something you've trashed out a million times and we might arrive at the same conclusion anyway for different reasons,so let's not bother.
I haven't said that there is a God anywhere here or argued with the fundamental premise of atheism. I have said that some atheists, particularly those on message boards are just as likely to be unobjective as religious people. I think reading the threads on this forum are proof of that.

gaynorvader wrote: »

Atheism is simply a lack of belief, there are some gnostic atheists that do actively believe that there is no god, but those are firmly in the minority in my experience.
The reason such stories are up on these boards is that it's the common theme that the board is based on. If you've read the thread on the Mayo road blessing, you'd have noticed that the main bone of contention is that the county council should be spending its resources on something practical rather than wasting them on prayer, which has no proven track record to speak of.

I realise this doesn't apply to ALL atheists before I start but it does apply to some.

There would be no need for a message board if atheism was simply a lack of belief,if it were not a passionately,even zealously held world view, if it didn't engender a one sided community,much like religious beliefs tend to.
The posts on the subject of the blessing of the road and also the one on placing of a crucifix in the Kerry council chamber are not mainly comprised of logical arguments or people ringing their hands about CoCo time being poorly spent(We don't know that money changed hands for the service after all). Most of the two threads are the same old ding dong of "oh sweet baby jebus those crazy religious people who don't know science and think blessings are magic" stuff. Equally we have "the hazards of belief thread", "the funny side of religion thread" the "ongoing religious scandals" thread all stickied. They aren't about lack of belief, they're about deriding and examining the faults of others and ultimately asserting and reinforcing a superiority for the choice of an alternative view.
There's a whole lot more than the nonchalance that comes with regular disbelief going on here. It's not an objective, unprejudiced environment.

endacl · 18-04-2014 11:09pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Ooh, I like that. Another explanation infinitely more plausible than goddidit.

Dribble? From the dribblin' idiots?

Dribbledidit!

Nodin · 18-04-2014 11:41pm

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

There would be no need for a message board if atheism was simply a lack of belief,if it were not a passionately,even zealously held world view, if it didn't engender a one sided community,much like religious beliefs tend to.
The posts on the subject of the blessing of the road and also the one on placing of a crucifix in the Kerry council chamber are not mainly comprised of logical arguments or people ringing their hands about CoCo time being poorly spent(We don't know that money changed hands for the service after all). Most of the two threads are the same old ding dong of "oh sweet baby jebus those crazy religious people who don't know science and think blessings are magic" stuff. .............

So we should entertain the idea that somebody who undergoes a certain initiation ceremony can supernaturally channel supernatural power into water and use it to prevent road accidents. Just to avoid being one-sided like.

Or maybe we shouldn't pass comment at all, close the forum and be cunas.

recedite · 18-04-2014 11:46pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Re the dripping water the first thing is to look up capillary action. That satisfactiorily explains how the water can get up so far to drip down the knees. And you can even see a crack in the copper where your finger is.

Regarding the warmth, its water climbing up a copper statue in warm weather, of course it's going to be warm.

Salty is probably either due to the presence of copper sulphate as a reaction between the copper of the statue and climbing water, or maybe due to the acidity of the water either due to pollution or the water picking up acidic compounds in the ground.

Capillary action seems likely, it may even have been designed into the statue.
Copper sulphate may be "a salt" but AFAIK it has a bitter or metallic taste. If there was chlorine in the water, and sodium in the alloy of the statue, it may be that actual sodium chloride is being formed at the crack, especially as chlorination is helped by UV light.

Or it could just be Jesus sweating, I mean who hasn't felt a bit of salty water oozing around their crack on a hot day?

Dades · 19-04-2014 1:51am

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

There's a whole lot more than the nonchalance that comes with regular disbelief going on here. It's not an objective, unprejudiced environment.

And if religion affected none of us, this would be a quiet place. Unfortunately the place of power still afforded the church in this country means that people of no faith have a valid reason to speak out. It's not just an intellectual exercise, you see, there are real world concerns.

In Ireland, a lack of belief is ignored in favour of a majority belief in the education system in a way that cannot be ignored.

Ken bryan · 19-04-2014 3:01am

Dades wrote: »

And if religion affected none of us, this would be a quiet place. Unfortunately the place of power still afforded the church in this country means that people of no faith have a valid reason to speak out. It's not just an intellectual exercise, you see, there are real world concerns.

In Ireland, a lack of belief is ignored in favour of a majority belief in the education system in a way that cannot be ignored.

Utter nonsense . As It,s the atheists who run this country now .
The Labour Party is constantly attacking the Catholic Church . So to is Kenny .
Yet both have their church gate collections once a year

The following are about two women who received a complete and instantaneous healing from multiple sclerosis. Their diseases had advanced far enough that they were paralyzed and in wheelchairs, with severe muscle deterioration. These two cases have been medically well-documented and submitted to the church.

“Rita Klaus, American, married with three daughters: she had multiple sclerosis for twenty-five years, getting about in a wheelchair. In February 1986 she read about Medjugorje and on the evening of 18 June after prayer she knew she must ask for healing: the next day she could move her feet and legs and by the same evening she ran upstairs, quite recovered.” 5

“Dr. L. Frigerio and his colleagues at the Specialist Clinical Institute of Milan had complied a dossier of 143 items on the cure of a forty-three-year-old Italian secretary and mother of three sons. Diana Basile. Multiple sclerosis had been diagnosed in 1972. Signora Basile suffered from perineal dermatitis; was blind in one eye, and could walk only with difficulty. In January 1984, all this was compounded by a severe clinical depression, as her physical condition continued to deteriorate. In May, a colleague in the office where Signora Basile had worked suggested that she should join a group going from Milan to Medjugorje.

“On the evening of 23rd May, she was in the church and a friend, Signora Novella, helped her to climb the steps up to the apparition room:

‘At that point I no longer wanted to enter the room…but the door was opened and I went in. I knelt just behind the door. When the children came in and knelt down…I heard a loud noise. After that I remember nothing, except an indescribable joy and certain forgotten episodes of my life passing before my eyes as though on film. When it was all over, I followed the children, who went straight to the main altar in the church. I was walking just like everybody else, and I knelt down just as they did. It didn’t actually occur to me that anything extraordinary had happened, until Signora Novella came up to me in tears.’

“The cure had been instantaneous. On the pilgrimage bus returning her to the hotel in Ljubuski, the other pilgrims embraced her and wept with amazement. That evening, Signora Basile found that the dermatitis had completely disappeared. Her right eye, useless for twelve years, had regained perfect vision – even better than that of the left eye which was only ninety percent good. Next day she walked the six miles from the hotel to the church at Medjugorje – barefoot. As if that were not enough, in the afternoon, she climbed the rocky path up the hill of apparitions.” 6
Mod EDIT:
Source

Mirko Brkic (of Banja Luka)

“Mirko broke his leg and a pin was placed in it. He was treated first in a hospital in Banja Luka and then in Belgrade. An open sore, under the knee of the broken leg, was treated many times, but the sore became deeper until the bone was visible. Doctors decided to amputate. Meanwhile Mirko’s family had made a vow to Our Lady, and prayed and fasted. The day before the scheduled amputation, the wound suddenly closed. The astonished doctors cancelled the operation. After several days the wound was completely healed over. The healing was made public on March 26, 1982.”

Turtwig used Edit:
Source.
...
It's super effective!

recedite wrote: »

Eh... whose word? The "visionaries"? You saw nothing, but you say "She did show for us". Seems like you have bought into the mass delusion. The same thing happened when I was there, but I interpreted it as a no-show.

Nonsense. Atheists suffer from a lack of beliefs if anything. I only went because some friends were going and it was a reasonably priced holiday, nevertheless I looked around with an open mind. I saw nothing in any way convincing. It is fascinating to see the effect of so many believers on each other though; the general sense of spirituality is heightened. But this is only the same effect as you would get if you spent the night in a supposedly haunted house with the lights turned off. The power of suggestion starts to take over from rational thought. It was years ago when I was there, before the salty statue. I'd like to see someone lift it off the ground with a JCB, and then see if it still pumps out the Jesus tears.

The power of Suggestion was not there at the beginning was it . Nor was it at Lourdes or Fatima . The latter 2 had to proven to Sceptics before they became known as spiritual places of worship

Turtwig · 19-04-2014 3:24am

Dude, if you start using multi quote, that + button to the right a post, people may be more open to believing in the miracles!

Also if you wish to copy and paste material from another source you MUST cite that source!

Nodin · 19-04-2014 4:32am

Ken bryan wrote: »

Utter nonsense . As It,s the atheists who run this country now .
The Labour Party is constantly attacking the Catholic Church . So to is Kenny .
Yet both have their church gate collections once a year

The following are about two women who received a complete and instantaneous healing from multiple sclerosis. Their diseases had advanced far enough that they were paralyzed and in wheelchairs, with severe muscle deterioration. These two cases have been medically well-documented and submitted to the church.

...........

There's nearly always a 1% chance of recovery, which is what occurs at these place.

Nodin · 19-04-2014 4:39am

Adamantium wrote: »

When I visited both in 2002 and 2008, There was a solid bronze statue of Jesus Christ on the cross (about 30ft high) that has been weeping warm salty water continously from the leg since the 20th anniversary of the appraitions on June 23, 1981. The statue has been examined, lifted and there, but no piping was found. It was built in 1998.

................

The world today - a small selection - The war in Syria. The war in Congo. The colonisation of West Papua, the conflicts in Sudan, Ukraine, tensions in Azerbaijan, Northern China, maoist Rebels in India, caste violence, sectarian pogroms in Burma. Rape in post civil war Latin American states, Africa. Child abuse, wherever it occurs.

Cancer, AID's, outbreak of Ebola, hundreds of diseases unknown in the west, which take a vast toll in tropical and equatorial climes, children who are born with certain conditions, live a short pain filled existence and die.

To which the lord has answered = "solid bronze statue of Jesus Christ on the cross (about 30ft high) that has been weeping warm salty water continously from the leg since the 20th anniversary of the appraitions on June 23, 1981".

Seriously man, have a think.

Maphisto · 19-04-2014 6:32am

Nodin wrote: »

The world today - a small selection - The war in Syria. The war in Congo. The colonisation of West Papua, the conflicts in Sudan, Ukraine, tensions in Azerbaijan, Northern China, maoist Rebels in India, caste violence, sectarian pogroms in Burma. Rape in post civil war Latin American states, Africa. Child abuse, wherever it occurs.

Cancer, AID's, outbreak of Ebola, hundreds of diseases unknown in the west, which take a vast toll in tropical and equatorial climes, children who are born with certain conditions, live a short pain filled existence and die.

To which the lord has answered = "solid bronze statue of Jesus Christ on the cross (about 30ft high) that has been weeping warm salty water continously from the leg since the 20th anniversary of the appraitions on June 23, 1981".

Seriously man, have a think.

Nicely put. Like you I don't care about these tricks. There might be an explanation, there might not.

I would be more impressed if an amputee was given a new limb. Like you say of all the things that could be fixed in the world showing us a card trick doesn't really cut it.

Canis Lupus · 19-04-2014 8:01am

Ken bryan wrote: »

Utter nonsense . As It,s the atheists who run this country now .
The Labour Party is constantly attacking the Catholic Church . So to is Kenny .
Yet both have their church gate collections once a year

The following are about two women who received a complete and instantaneous healing from multiple sclerosis. Their diseases had advanced far enough that they were paralyzed and in wheelchairs, with severe muscle deterioration. These two cases have been medically well-documented and submitted to the church.

Mirko Brkic (of Banja Luka)

The power of Suggestion was not there at the beginning was it . Nor was it at Lourdes or Fatima . The latter 2 had to proven to Sceptics before they became known as spiritual places of worship

Who are all these medical miracles? A quick google seems to suggest the only place they're mentioned is on that website which is basically a sales pitch for the location. Are you able to provide any more information on them? I find it strange that there isn't an abundance of data on them despite being instantly cured of debilitating diseases even though your website states the cases are 'medically well-documented and submitted to the church'.

Have you any explanation as to why countless other sick people who go to that place don't get cured and that their number surely outweighs the handful you presented? Why is this? Are they not worthy enough? Pious enough? Didn't buy enough souvenirs?

Why does an all powerful god choose to heal people that go there? What about all the people too sick to go, too poor to go, geographically/politically unable to go?

Is the healing of god effectively a lottery, one slanted heavily in the favour of people basically rich enough to travel to a town in Bosnia?

jimd2 · 19-04-2014 8:11am

Is Medugorje still supposed to be happening? I had cousins travel there many years ago. It always seemed to be a strange phenomenon.

In reality it is bullsh!t. If the church hierarchy believed it was true and significant then they would be broadcasting it from the rooftops. I can't explain what is happening out there but don't really care.

Dades · 19-04-2014 10:16am

Ken bryan wrote: »

Utter nonsense . As It,s the atheists who run this country now .

Damn atheists shutting our laundries and making our clergy accountable. Whatever next? Meat on a Friday? o_O

robindch · 19-04-2014 10:25am

Dades wrote: »

accountable. Whatever next? Meat on a Friday? o_O

So long as it's not booze on Good Friday of course.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 19-04-2014 11:20am

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Believing god does not exist is actually,a belief,though perhaps you're more comfortable calling it an opinion. Ultimately,from a place of sheer logic, it is not capable of ABSOLUTE proof.

I think you should persist with this point. Many folk here think they can hide an ontological position in a discussion about grammar. As you hint at, there might be nuances involved in using terms like believe, assert or contend. But that's essentially irrelevant, as the point is that pretty much any statement that anyone makes about the nature of reality is uncertain.

Atheists can contend that our position is less extravagant than (for the sake of argument) Roman Catholicism. But even that doesn't quite work. Occam's Razor was originally an argument for the existence of God. And, indeed, a very simple explanation for everything is that somebody made it so.

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Atheism has its own dogma,of course there are degrees of involvement <...>

I know you qualify it yourself, but I do feel a need to add my comment that atheism has no dogma. But, much as you say, some atheists do want to bond an create an orthodoxy, ironically following a pattern they've learnt from religions. So there's an attempt to phrase a dogma around ideas like secular rules must be better than religious rules.

jimd2 wrote: »

If the church hierarchy believed it was true and significant then they would be broadcasting it from the rooftops. I can't explain what is happening out there but don't really care.

I think that says all that needs to be said on the topic.

Nodin · 19-04-2014 5:23pm

Maphisto wrote: »

Nicely put. Like you I don't care about these tricks. There might be an explanation, there might not.

I would be more impressed if an amputee was given a new limb. Like you say of all the things that could be fixed in the world showing us a card trick doesn't really cut it.

Funny enough, that's never happened. Ever. Anywhere. Yet the 1% remission happens regardless of location or religion.

Ken bryan · 19-04-2014 5:39pm

Dades wrote: »

Damn atheists shutting our laundries and making our clergy accountable. Whatever next? Meat on a Friday? o_O

It was not atheists who shut them down or made clergy responsible .
got your facts wrong bud.

Ken bryan · 19-04-2014 5:43pm

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Who are all these medical miracles? A quick google seems to suggest the only place they're mentioned is on that website which is basically a sales pitch for the location. Are you able to provide any more information on them? I find it strange that there isn't an abundance of data on them despite being instantly cured of debilitating diseases even though your website states the cases are 'medically well-documented and submitted to the church'.

The data is held by the church .
It does not publish the data . But it allow some to see them like Jacalyn Duffin, physician and historian, holds the Hannah Chair for the History of Medicine, Queen's University, Ontario.
She wrote a book . Its on amazon . Its called Medical Miracles: Doctors, Saints, and Healing in the Modern World .
It,s totally un biased .

Pherekydes · 19-04-2014 5:51pm

Ken bryan wrote: »

It was not atheists who shut them down or made clergy responsible .
got your facts wrong bud.

You're confusing us. Are the atheists running the country or not?

Tim Robbins · 19-04-2014 5:58pm

Adamantium wrote: »

This going to come off as a disjointed ramble, but its perhaps the only thing that makes me doubt well...

I would be more interested to know what Jesus / God / Holy Spirit think it is ok for kids to get Cancer then some alleged visionary miracle.

shruikan2553 · 19-04-2014 6:03pm

Jesus has gotten lazy. Back in the bible he would come to you but now you must go to a large idol and have a chance of being cured already. At least a God who follows laws of physics is slightly more believable.

Ken bryan · 19-04-2014 6:05pm

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Who are all these medical miracles? A quick google seems to suggest the only place they're mentioned is on that website which is basically a sales p

Have you any explanation as to why countless other sick people who go to that place don't get cured and that their number surely outweighs the handful you presented? Why is this? Are they not worthy enough? Pious enough? Didn't buy enough souvenirs?

Why does an all powerful god choose to heal people that go there? What about all the people too sick to go, too poor to go, geographically/politically unable to go?

Is the healing of god effectively a lottery, one slanted heavily in the favour of people basically rich enough to travel to a town in Bosnia?

Those are merely a sample . But yes there are those who are not healed .
But surely is better so seek ,rather ,than not to seek . .
For those who are not healed . It can be very hard to deal with the denial of being healed . I know lots who have not . But they still hope and believe .

Ken bryan · 19-04-2014 6:14pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

You're confusing us. Are the atheists running the country or not?

No absolute answer can be given to that . But the Catholic church is not .
That is for sure . I don't profess to know the beliefs of everyone in Government , But I know Labour Politicians say they are Atheist's . Thus are influenced by beliefs .

Maphisto · 19-04-2014 8:28pm

Ken bryan wrote: »

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Who are all these medical miracles? A quick google seems to suggest the only place they're mentioned is on that website which is basically a sales pitch for the location. Are you able to provide any more information on them? I find it strange that there isn't an abundance of data on them despite being instantly cured of debilitating diseases even though your website states the cases are 'medically well-documented and submitted to the church'.

The data is held by the church .
It does not publish the data . But it allow some to see them like Jacalyn Duffin, physician and historian, holds the Hannah Chair for the History of Medicine, Queen's University, Ontario.
She wrote a book . Its on amazon . Its called Medical Miracles: Doctors, Saints, and Healing in the Modern World .
It,s totally un biased .

Is that just a simple assertion, hyperbole, opinion or is the claim supported in some way?

I know its a hobby-horse of mine but are any amputees included in the "Medical Miracles"?

Maphisto · 19-04-2014 8:29pm

Ken bryan wrote: »

Those are merely a sample . But yes there are those who are not healed .
But surely is better so seek ,rather ,than not to seek . .
For those who are not healed . It can be very hard to deal with the denial of being healed . I know lots who have not . But they still hope and believe .

Unless one is an amputee?

Pherekydes · 19-04-2014 8:30pm

Ken bryan wrote: »

No absolute answer can be given to that . But the Catholic church is not.

And why would they? Have they been elected? Is everyone a catholic?

But I know Labour Politicians say they are Atheist's . Thus are influenced by beliefs .

What, are all of them atheist? And I think you'll find that atheists are not influenced by beliefs. If you bother asking any.

A thread I've wanted to make for a very long time....Medugorje

Comments