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A thread I've wanted to make for a very long time....Medugorje

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  • 17-04-2014 10:20pm
    #1
    Adamantium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭


    This going to come off as a disjointed ramble, but its perhaps the only thing that makes me doubt well.... everything.


    Our family went to Medugorje twice, once when I was 12, begrudgingly went when I was 18. Had I not gone the 2nd time I would have became a godless heathen far earlier, but the parents were adamant I be topped up again Beautiful 40 degree weather and equal beautiful women and hillwalking looking back on it and the serenity of the place were what worked the job on my mind. God?? I don't know......

    The visionaries have been tested time and time again by medical researchers scientists and they seem to be seem in state of ecstasy, (ZERO facial twitching, or stimuli during these apparations, occuring daily, to this day since 1981 ), unless they're doing the greatest Oscar performance since this side of the Big Bang, they're not delusional. Yet they have to be...

    I've seen ****e in that place that would cause anybody to believe in God, and why he'd be trying to conceal himself in solid bronze weeping statues (the tears taste salty and warm) but looking back as a 23 year old, why the magic tricks, why not something anything useful?

    Writing, medicine? Why wait all of human history to bring (through the love of God, working through doctors and the like) and prolong suffering with a drip drip?


    To this day, I'm still utterly baffled by what occured and what I saw, being as objective as I can. A truly bizarre place that will shake you.


    I'm interested in peoples opinions of the place and what of anybody has has to say on the Atheism/Agnosticism side. Don't move to Christianity, I want strong objective views on this one, "Not you've finally let the love of Jesus into your heart, isn't it wonderful??"



    There seems to be little remarkably discourse on the supposed events, to point where I think, it seems non-believers are as baffled to a response as I am. There is hardly any discourse on either side. Almost as if it's being willingly ignored.

    Some quotes:

    There have been two major scientific studies done on the visionaries since the apparitions began in Medjugorje on June 25, 1981 by the best scientists in the world. The most recent of which was in 1998. Both drew the same conclusions, which are that the visionaries are healthy mentally and physically, they are not hallucinating, are not lying, and are definitely experiencing something that is beyond our scientific understanding that is unexplainable.

    It is also interesting to note that during the experiments, one of the things being monitored was brain activity. Most of us are able to use around 15% of our brain during normal activities. It is fascinating to note that at the moment when Our Lady appears, the visionaries brain activity jumps to 100% and stays at this level until Our Lady leaves.

    http://www.medjugorje.org/science.htm

    http://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/scientific-studies/627-specific-tests-administered-to-the-medjugorje-visionaries-and-their-results.html


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    #2
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,710 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Adamantium wrote: »
    There have been two major scientific studies done on the visionaries since the apparitions began in Medjugorje on June 25, 1981 by the best scientists in the world.
    it's language like this which will immediately remove credibility with your claims. good science is not achieved by hiring the A-Team of scientists (which does not exist), so the above claim is meaningless and undermines your argument.

    plus, the '15% of your brain' line is due for its million mile service by now, and it's nonsense.


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    #3
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Adamantium wrote: »
    <...> There seems to be little remarkably discourse on the supposed events, to point where I think, it seems non-believers are as baffled to a response as I am.<...>
    In fairness, I'd say the absence of discourse is simply that there's not much to talk about. I know next to damn all about Medugorje. It's just another report of (as I think you acknowledge) fairly pointless paranormal happenings, like Knock or lots of other places.

    I just Googled quickly. There's plenty of sceptical stuff out there about weeping statues, that's not hard to find, if you want to find it. Would I be right that, like all this kind of stuff, the Vatican position never makes it a requirement of the faith that people give credence to it. I think that might be a fairly clear indication that they think it's hogwash too, but they don't want to turn away the business.

    I don't typically feel that an atheist stance is in any way better or worse than a theist stance. Except when folk produce alleged miracles of this kind. These miracles aren't even entertaining, like Yeti sightings and accounts of alien abduction. So, as is normally the case when I post here, I'm left wondering why I'm bothering to post at all.


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    #4
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Adamantium wrote: »
    [...] the best scientists in the world [...]
    A magician would have been better - it takes a showman to catch a showman.


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    #5
    Gordon
    Registered Users Posts: 35,524 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    Adamantium wrote: »
    I've seen ****e in that place that would cause anybody to believe in God
    For example?


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    #6
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    If God/Mary/Jesus choose to use their supernatural powers only to make 'tears' come out of statues creating a tourist hotspot, while millions of children suffer from disease, war and starvation, why do Christains bother to worship them?


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    #7
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Even the RCC doesn't acknowledge medjagorie. Yet, Irish people still flock there in their droves.
    .


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    #8
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I have been there. Walked up a hill, where there was an appointment with the virgin Mary apparition for a certain time. It was a no-show.
    People gradually wandered back down the hill. Some poor fools said afterwards that they had felt a presence up there.
    I agree its a nice area, especially if you go a few Km away from the actual shrine with all it's tacky souvenirs.


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    #9
    Adamantium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭Adamantium


    Gordon wrote: »
    For example?

    When I visited both in 2002 and 2008, There was a solid bronze statue of Jesus Christ on the cross (about 30ft high) that has been weeping warm salty water continously from the leg since the 20th anniversary of the appraitions on June 23, 1981. The statue has been examined, lifted and there, but no piping was found. It was built in 1998.

    medjugoria096.jpg

    It appears at the corner of his bent knee and the coating on that part of the statue has been worn away by tourists like myself pawing away at it. I tried blocking it, but it wouldn't stop.

    Its incredible, the dripping water does appear from 2 visible hairline crevices, yet it seems to simply arise from the smooth surface, almost oozing from nothing.

    DropletSingle_1696.0.jpg

    Think the T1000 in Terminator 2 for a visual reference LOL


    Tourists were just sitting there at it for a.... long long time.

    Me and my dad were sitting looking with each on the steps saying "I have sat here trying to work out just how they did it.......... but its not possible is it?"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVaPNzk9EfY


    My first thought was bronze sweating in the heat, that seems very unlikely though.


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    #10
    Adamantium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭Adamantium


    recedite wrote: »
    I have been there. Walked up a hill, where there was an appointment with the virgin Mary apparition for a certain time. It was a no-show.
    People gradually wandered back down the hill. Some poor fools said afterwards that they had felt a presence up there.
    I agree its a nice area, especially if you go a few Km away from the actual shrine with all it's tacky souvenirs.

    I was at one of those night apparitions as well at 10pm. Literally hundreds of people on the mountain , and it was a sea of flashing cameras and journalists. She did show for us (if you take their word for it)


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    #11
    _Whimsical_
    Registered Users Posts: 7,955 ✭✭✭_Whimsical_


    I think if you're going to have a faith it has to be built on something more personally held than having seen statues trail water or photographs of cloud formations in the shape of crosses in the sky etc. They're all easily bebunked as hoaxes and natural phenomena. I don't think one statue or some sight seen once will sustain you for your life through all that might come either. If you're looking for a sign or a completely logical,irrefutable reason for a belief in God I don't think you'll ever find one.

    As for searching for unbiased opinions I think you're probably in the wrong place too. A lot of atheists hold their beliefs as staunchly as religious people hold theirs. At the end of the day both are just that,beliefs incapable of absolute logical proof and both colour ones opinions of these things.

    It's really something you need to figure out for yourself at the end of the day. If you google weeping statues you'll find loads of explanations for a statue leaking/weeping. If you google unexplained remissions from illness in religious sites you'll find those too and the occasional one when read along with medical reports will convince you something extraordinary happened.
    I think you have to go with what sits easiest in your own heart. Be true to yourself. Don't be someone who looks to people on an internet forum to answer a question quintessential to your identity.


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    #12
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Adamantium wrote: »
    She did show for us (if you take their word for it)
    Eh... whose word? The "visionaries"? You saw nothing, but you say "She did show for us". Seems like you have bought into the mass delusion. The same thing happened when I was there, but I interpreted it as a no-show.
    _Whimsical_ wrote: »
    A lot of atheists hold their beliefs as staunchly as religious people hold theirs. At the end of the day both are just that,beliefs incapable of absolute logical proof and both colour ones opinions of these things.
    Nonsense. Atheists suffer from a lack of beliefs if anything. I only went because some friends were going and it was a reasonably priced holiday, nevertheless I looked around with an open mind. I saw nothing in any way convincing. It is fascinating to see the effect of so many believers on each other though; the general sense of spirituality is heightened. But this is only the same effect as you would get if you spent the night in a supposedly haunted house with the lights turned off. The power of suggestion starts to take over from rational thought. It was years ago when I was there, before the salty statue. I'd like to see someone lift it off the ground with a JCB, and then see if it still pumps out the Jesus tears.


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    #13
    Adamantium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭Adamantium


    recedite wrote: »
    Eh... whose word? The "visionaries"? You saw nothing, but you say "She did show for us". Seems like you have bought into the mass delusion.

    No I said "She did show if you take their word for it", did the bolded part not hint at skepticism enough for you, it different from saying I saw, which I didn't.

    Woah I have never not "bought" not into any mass delusion, I'm fascinated by it that's all. Could you be any more presumptious?


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    #14
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Adamantium wrote: »
    When I visited both in 2002 and 2008, There was a solid bronze statue of Jesus Christ on the cross (about 30ft high) that has been weeping warm salty water continously from the leg since the 20th anniversary of the appraitions on June 23, 1981. The statue has been examined, lifted and there, but no piping was found. It was built in 1998.

    It appears at the corner of his bent knee and the coating on that part of the statue has been worn away by tourists like myself pawing away at it. I tried blocking it, but it wouldn't stop.

    Its incredible, the dripping water does appear from 2 visible hairline crevices, yet it seems to simply arise from the smooth surface, almost oozing from nothing.


    Think the T1000 in Terminator 2 for a visual reference LOL


    Tourists were just sitting there at it for a.... long long time.

    Me and my dad were sitting looking with each on the steps saying "I have sat here trying to work out just how they did it.......... but its not possible is it?"



    My first thought was bronze sweating in the heat, that seems very unlikely though.

    From your photos there seems to be a water feature just next to the statue and the area around it appears to be very wet. You also mention that it's quite hot.

    So barring it being a deliberate hoax or trick (which it very well could still be. after all, magicians show people the inside of their hats before pulling a rabbit out of it.) The most likely explanations are either condensation from the warm wet surroundings helped along by the shapes and features of the statue (the bend in the knee and/or the cracks making it easier for water to condensate.) Or possibly condensation on the inside of the statue that is leaking out of the cracks.
    Or it could be some from of capillary action.

    So leaving aside that there is no reason to leap to such an extraordinary explanation, why exactly would an all-powerful being who could create a universe make a statue weep from it's knee?
    Why weeping from a knee? Knees don't weep.
    Why not from the symbolic wounds of Jesus, surely that's much more of a sign, no?
    And why water? Why not blood, which surely would be much harder to explain? If he's doing this, it must be because he wants it as a sign, so it doesn't make any sense for him to use magic, but only in a way that looks like it's not magic.

    But why make a statue do anything? It would be far more helpful, convincing and kind for him to actually just cure people around the world without making them come see a mildly interesting statue.

    If this "miracle" has convinced you of a god, it isn't a very kind, good or particularly clever God.


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    #15
    Gordon
    Registered Users Posts: 35,524 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    Hopefully there's more than just water dripping from the foot of a statue that would make 'anyone' turn to god? If not, it's not saying much for people!

    My first thoughts about the water coming from the knees are:
    1) If it was at the eyes, nobody would see the water, or be able to touch it, as it's so high up.
    2) With a water source contained within the hollow statue, the best place to put the leak would be at the bottom, to ensure that it could keep dripping for a long time without needing filled up.
    3) Water coming from cracks, did Jesus have cracks in his knees that oozed water? He had pores probably, but you can't see them as cracks, if it's a miracle - why would there happen to be cracks and not invisible miraculous pores?

    You believe what people told you about scientific testing but I presume there are no facts to back this up? They tested the water? Salty? Any DNA in it? Tears have DNA, if it didn't have DNA then it's just salty tasting water.


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    #16
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Medugorje....of feck,

    I know several very holy joe's who even think that people that go to Medugorje are nuts, thats saying something as these holy joe's observe all the holy days and go to mass several times a week!

    Outside of the water on jesus, lets look at the dancing sun shall we
    Pilgrims have reported being able to look at the sun without hurting their eyes and seeing many different things: the Host spinning in the center of the sun, the sun spinning and dancing all around, it moving closer and farther away from them, different figures around the sun, such as hearts, crosses, etc.

    If the sun moved closer or further in reality then we'd be screwed, all life on this planet would be screwed.
    What is far more likely is people's eye's are playing tricks on them due to extended periods of looking at the sun....looking at the sun for extended periods without protection is a very very stupid thing to do.


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    #17
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,252 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I'm convinced OP. What time is mass?


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    #18
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Adamantium wrote: »
    I've seen ****e in that place that would cause anybody to believe in God,

    Thats a pretty bold and ill informed statement to make, case to back it up?


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    #19
    Gordon
    Registered Users Posts: 35,524 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Thats a pretty bold and ill informed statement to make, case to back it up?
    He saw water coming from a statue and other people saw an apparition:
    Adamantium wrote: »
    I was at one of those night apparitions as well at 10pm. Literally hundreds of people on the mountain , and it was a sea of flashing cameras and journalists. She did show for us (if you take their word for it)


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    #20
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Gordon wrote: »
    He saw water coming from a statue and other people saw an apparition:

    Not really something that would make me or really anyone I know believe in a god,

    So hundreds of people with camera's and journalists, I suppose photographic evidence should be easy to find for the OP then? Google isn't throwing up anything except poor Photoshop jobs so far for me :(


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    #21
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Adamantium wrote: »
    It appears at the corner of his bent knee [...]
    These days, the best that god can do is to show up on toast and to dribble warm, salty water from the knee of a small brass statue.

    Omnipotence ain't what it used to be.


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    #22
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    robindch wrote: »
    These days, the best that god can do is to show up on toast and to dribble warm, salty water from the knee of a small brass statue.

    Omnipotence ain't what it used to be.

    Yeah gods power really isn't

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/modern-miracles-5-stories-for-bible-skeptics-from-its-a-god-thing-104832/

    Modern Miracles: 5 Stories For Bible Skeptics From 'It's a God Thing'
    4. Does God Watch Baseball?

    Donald L. Jacobson, Sr. took his son out for a baseball game, and prayed on a whim, "Lord, it would sure be nice if I could get a baseball for my boy."

    After this prayer, Ray Fosse, a famous catcher for the Portland Beavers, hit a home run, and the ball whizzed straight to the senior Jacobson's feet.

    "Miracles are not always big," the father wrote. "Sometimes it is the small ones that shout the loudest of God's love and care for each of us."

    "I've still got the ball," Jacobson Jr., the project's creator, told CP.

    First off, this is counted as a Miracle? thats kind of scary...

    Also didn't he just pray for personal gain?
    Can I pray and ask that my wife wins the lotto? :pac:


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    #23
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Adamantium wrote: »
    <snip>

    Re the dripping water the first thing is to look up capillary action. That satisfactiorily explains how the water can get up so far to drip down the knees. And you can even see a crack in the copper where your finger is.

    Regarding the warmth, its water climbing up a copper statue in warm weather, of course it's going to be warm.

    Salty is probably either due to the presence of copper sulphate as a reaction between the copper of the statue and climbing water, or maybe due to the acidity of the water either due to pollution or the water picking up acidic compounds in the ground.


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    #24
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,252 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Can I pray and ask that my wife wins the lotto? :pac:

    Don't forget to add the proviso that you would remain attractive to a millionaire wife! Miracles may come back to bite you in the bum...


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    #25
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    _Whimsical_ wrote: »
    As for searching for unbiased opinions I think you're probably in the wrong place too. A lot of atheists hold their beliefs as staunchly as religious people hold theirs.

    Seriously you're trotting out this lie?

    Atheists don't have a belief, atheism is simply the non-belief in any god. Therefore they cant hold their beliefs re god staunchly because they have none.

    The fact of the matter is, given current understanding of the universe, the most logical position is to for the moment assume that there are no gods, because a) there is no evidence for the existence of any god, and b) what evidence we have says there is no necessity for god for reality to exist.


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    #26
    _Whimsical_
    Registered Users Posts: 7,955 ✭✭✭_Whimsical_


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    Seriously you're trotting out this lie?

    Atheists don't have a belief, atheism is simply the non-belief in any god. Therefore they cant hold their beliefs re god staunchly because they have none.

    The fact of the matter is, given current understanding of the universe, the most logical position is to for the moment assume that there are no gods, because a) there is no evidence for the existence of any god, and b) what evidence we have says there is no necessity for god for reality to exist.

    Believing god does not exist is actually,a belief,though perhaps you're more comfortable calling it an opinion. Ultimately,from a place of sheer logic, it is not capable of ABSOLUTE proof.

    Atheism has its own dogma,of course there are degrees of involvement so I won't claim every atheist is unable to be objective but I think you're fooling yourself if you believe that some,perhaps many who identify so strongly with the label that they frequent an online forum on the subject are completely objective.Modern atheism is becoming similar to religion.It has it's own revered personalities,it conveys a sense of intelligence/worthiness to the "non believer" that they have chosen the superior position and that those who believe otherwise are less capable of logical intelligent thought. In that respect it is divisive. It has come to spawn communities, from anti religion lobby groups to it's own "masses". It has it's own communities online that allow for reinforement of that lack of belief through constant discussion of the folly/stupidity of belief, rarely managing a balanced response or acknowledgement of any positives of religion, it even has some of it's own extremist paranoid crackpots.
    That this forum is so busy and can get in a lather over such things as a man shaking some water on a road in Mayo is testament to there being some passionate,perhaps irrationally strongly held, feelings here.

    Personally I don't think that it's a place to come to for a completely unbiased opinion anymore than I think any of the other of the religion boards might be.


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    #27
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,252 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Incorrect. But an understandable and common misconception. From a theistic point of view.


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    #28
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    _Whimsical_ wrote: »
    Atheism has its own dogma,

    Really, and what would they be exactly?

    Say I don't believe in the existence of a supreme all powerful being..thats it, outside of that what principles laid down by an authority do I have to agree with?

    For that matter what authority do I have to follow exactly?

    The problem here is you are trying to apply how a religion is structured to a non-belief, that doesn't work. An atheist doesn't follow a "leader" or authority, an atheist simply doesn't believe in a god. They don't have any additional rules or beliefs to follow such as you do with a religion (sins, saints, holy men, popes etc etc etc etc)

    Unlike a "faith" if you provide evidence to prove something else this view might potentially change, of course you'd have to provide factual evidence for this to happen and rightly so.

    With a religion a leader has only to say something is true and the many will follow it and believe it,


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    #29
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    _Whimsical_ wrote: »
    Believing god does not exist is actually,a belief,though perhaps you're more comfortable calling it an opinion. Ultimately,from a place of sheer logic, it is not capable of ABSOLUTE proof.

    Atheism has its own dogma,of course there are degrees of involvement so I won't claim every atheist is unable to be objective but I think you're fooling yourself if you believe that some,perhaps many who identify so strongly with the label that they frequent an online forum on the subject are completely objective.Modern atheism is becoming similar to religion.It has it's own revered personalities,it conveys a sense of intelligence/worthiness to the "non believer" that they have chosen the superior position and that those who believe otherwise are less capable of logical intelligent thought. In that respect it is divisive. It has come to spawn communities, from anti religion lobby groups to it's own "masses". It has it's own communities online that allow for reinforement of that lack of belief through constant discussion of the folly/stupidity of belief, rarely managing a balanced response or acknowledgement of any positives of religion, it even has some of it's own extremist paranoid crackpots.
    That this forum is so busy and can get in a lather over such things as a man shaking some water on a road in Mayo is testament to there being some passionate,perhaps irrationally strongly held, feelings here.

    Personally I don't think that it's a place to come to for a completely unbiased opinion anymore than I think any of the other of the religion boards might be.

    Atheism is simply a lack of belief, there are some gnostic atheists that do actively believe that there is no god, but those are firmly in the minority in my experience.
    The reason such stories are up on these boards is that it's the common theme that the board is based on. If you've read the thread on the Mayo road blessing, you'd have noticed that the main bone of contention is that the county council should be spending its resources on something practical rather than wasting them on prayer, which has no proven track record to speak of.


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    #30
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I've been to Medjegorie - before I was such a sceptic - and it was a factor in forming my current lack of belief. It was so clear to me there that there was a desperation to believe on the part of visitors in what looked like an obvious sham. It completely surprised me tbh.

    The only thing I can think of to explain the crying Jesus, is that it really is Jesus crying at the contradictory, hypocritical asshatterly so many people have carried out in his name.


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    #31
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    Re the dripping water the first thing is to look up capillary action. That satisfactiorily explains how the water can get up so far to drip down the knees. And you can even see a crack in the copper where your finger is.

    Regarding the warmth, its water climbing up a copper statue in warm weather, of course it's going to be warm.

    Salty is probably either due to the presence of copper sulphate as a reaction between the copper of the statue and climbing water, or maybe due to the acidity of the water either due to pollution or the water picking up acidic compounds in the ground.

    Don't forget all the residues from people kissing/touching the statue with sweaty hands


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