A thread I've wanted to make for a very long time....Medugorje

Adamantium

This going to come off as a disjointed ramble, but its perhaps the only thing that makes me doubt well.... everything.


Our family went to Medugorje twice, once when I was 12, begrudgingly went when I was 18. Had I not gone the 2nd time I would have became a godless heathen far earlier, but the parents were adamant I be topped up again Beautiful 40 degree weather and equal beautiful women and hillwalking looking back on it and the serenity of the place were what worked the job on my mind. God?? I don't know......

The visionaries have been tested time and time again by medical researchers scientists and they seem to be seem in state of ecstasy, (ZERO facial twitching, or stimuli during these apparations, occuring daily, to this day since 1981 ), unless they're doing the greatest Oscar performance since this side of the Big Bang, they're not delusional. Yet they have to be...

I've seen ****e in that place that would cause anybody to believe in God, and why he'd be trying to conceal himself in solid bronze weeping statues (the tears taste salty and warm) but looking back as a 23 year old, why the magic tricks, why not something anything useful?

Writing, medicine? Why wait all of human history to bring (through the love of God, working through doctors and the like) and prolong suffering with a drip drip?


To this day, I'm still utterly baffled by what occured and what I saw, being as objective as I can. A truly bizarre place that will shake you.


I'm interested in peoples opinions of the place and what of anybody has has to say on the Atheism/Agnosticism side. Don't move to Christianity, I want strong objective views on this one, "Not you've finally let the love of Jesus into your heart, isn't it wonderful??"



There seems to be little remarkably discourse on the supposed events, to point where I think, it seems non-believers are as baffled to a response as I am. There is hardly any discourse on either side. Almost as if it's being willingly ignored.

Some quotes:

There have been two major scientific studies done on the visionaries since the apparitions began in Medjugorje on June 25, 1981 by the best scientists in the world. The most recent of which was in 1998. Both drew the same conclusions, which are that the visionaries are healthy mentally and physically, they are not hallucinating, are not lying, and are definitely experiencing something that is beyond our scientific understanding that is unexplainable.

It is also interesting to note that during the experiments, one of the things being monitored was brain activity. Most of us are able to use around 15% of our brain during normal activities. It is fascinating to note that at the moment when Our Lady appears, the visionaries brain activity jumps to 100% and stays at this level until Our Lady leaves.

http://www.medjugorje.org/science.htm

http://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/scientific-studies/627-specific-tests-administered-to-the-medjugorje-visionaries-and-their-results.html

magicbastarder

Adamantium wrote: »

There have been two major scientific studies done on the visionaries since the apparitions began in Medjugorje on June 25, 1981 by the best scientists in the world.

it's language like this which will immediately remove credibility with your claims. good science is not achieved by hiring the A-Team of scientists (which does not exist), so the above claim is meaningless and undermines your argument.

plus, the '15% of your brain' line is due for its million mile service by now, and it's nonsense.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Adamantium wrote: »

<...> There seems to be little remarkably discourse on the supposed events, to point where I think, it seems non-believers are as baffled to a response as I am.<...>

In fairness, I'd say the absence of discourse is simply that there's not much to talk about. I know next to damn all about Medugorje. It's just another report of (as I think you acknowledge) fairly pointless paranormal happenings, like Knock or lots of other places.

I just Googled quickly. There's plenty of sceptical stuff out there about weeping statues, that's not hard to find, if you want to find it. Would I be right that, like all this kind of stuff, the Vatican position never makes it a requirement of the faith that people give credence to it. I think that might be a fairly clear indication that they think it's hogwash too, but they don't want to turn away the business.

I don't typically feel that an atheist stance is in any way better or worse than a theist stance. Except when folk produce alleged miracles of this kind. These miracles aren't even entertaining, like Yeti sightings and accounts of alien abduction. So, as is normally the case when I post here, I'm left wondering why I'm bothering to post at all.

robindch

Adamantium wrote: »

[...] the best scientists in the world [...]

A magician would have been better - it takes a showman to catch a showman.

Gordon

Adamantium wrote: »

I've seen ****e in that place that would cause anybody to believe in God

For example?

Kiwi in IE

If God/Mary/Jesus choose to use their supernatural powers only to make 'tears' come out of statues creating a tourist hotspot, while millions of children suffer from disease, war and starvation, why do Christains bother to worship them?

Turtwig

Even the RCC doesn't acknowledge medjagorie. Yet, Irish people still flock there in their droves.
.

recedite

I have been there. Walked up a hill, where there was an appointment with the virgin Mary apparition for a certain time. It was a no-show.
People gradually wandered back down the hill. Some poor fools said afterwards that they had felt a presence up there.
I agree its a nice area, especially if you go a few Km away from the actual shrine with all it's tacky souvenirs.

Adamantium

Gordon wrote: »

For example?

When I visited both in 2002 and 2008, There was a solid bronze statue of Jesus Christ on the cross (about 30ft high) that has been weeping warm salty water continously from the leg since the 20th anniversary of the appraitions on June 23, 1981. The statue has been examined, lifted and there, but no piping was found. It was built in 1998.



It appears at the corner of his bent knee and the coating on that part of the statue has been worn away by tourists like myself pawing away at it. I tried blocking it, but it wouldn't stop.

Its incredible, the dripping water does appear from 2 visible hairline crevices, yet it seems to simply arise from the smooth surface, almost oozing from nothing.



Think the T1000 in Terminator 2 for a visual reference LOL


Tourists were just sitting there at it for a.... long long time.

Me and my dad were sitting looking with each on the steps saying "I have sat here trying to work out just how they did it.......... but its not possible is it?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVaPNzk9EfY

My first thought was bronze sweating in the heat, that seems very unlikely though.

Adamantium

recedite wrote: »

I have been there. Walked up a hill, where there was an appointment with the virgin Mary apparition for a certain time. It was a no-show.
People gradually wandered back down the hill. Some poor fools said afterwards that they had felt a presence up there.
I agree its a nice area, especially if you go a few Km away from the actual shrine with all it's tacky souvenirs.

I was at one of those night apparitions as well at 10pm. Literally hundreds of people on the mountain , and it was a sea of flashing cameras and journalists. She did show for us (if you take their word for it)

_Whimsical_

I think if you're going to have a faith it has to be built on something more personally held than having seen statues trail water or photographs of cloud formations in the shape of crosses in the sky etc. They're all easily bebunked as hoaxes and natural phenomena. I don't think one statue or some sight seen once will sustain you for your life through all that might come either. If you're looking for a sign or a completely logical,irrefutable reason for a belief in God I don't think you'll ever find one.

As for searching for unbiased opinions I think you're probably in the wrong place too. A lot of atheists hold their beliefs as staunchly as religious people hold theirs. At the end of the day both are just that,beliefs incapable of absolute logical proof and both colour ones opinions of these things.

It's really something you need to figure out for yourself at the end of the day. If you google weeping statues you'll find loads of explanations for a statue leaking/weeping. If you google unexplained remissions from illness in religious sites you'll find those too and the occasional one when read along with medical reports will convince you something extraordinary happened.
I think you have to go with what sits easiest in your own heart. Be true to yourself. Don't be someone who looks to people on an internet forum to answer a question quintessential to your identity.

recedite

Adamantium wrote: »

She did show for us (if you take their word for it)

Eh... whose word? The "visionaries"? You saw nothing, but you say "She did show for us". Seems like you have bought into the mass delusion. The same thing happened when I was there, but I interpreted it as a no-show.

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

A lot of atheists hold their beliefs as staunchly as religious people hold theirs. At the end of the day both are just that,beliefs incapable of absolute logical proof and both colour ones opinions of these things.

Nonsense. Atheists suffer from a lack of beliefs if anything. I only went because some friends were going and it was a reasonably priced holiday, nevertheless I looked around with an open mind. I saw nothing in any way convincing. It is fascinating to see the effect of so many believers on each other though; the general sense of spirituality is heightened. But this is only the same effect as you would get if you spent the night in a supposedly haunted house with the lights turned off. The power of suggestion starts to take over from rational thought. It was years ago when I was there, before the salty statue. I'd like to see someone lift it off the ground with a JCB, and then see if it still pumps out the Jesus tears.

Adamantium

recedite wrote: »

Eh... whose word? The "visionaries"? You saw nothing, but you say "She did show for us". Seems like you have bought into the mass delusion.

No I said "She did show if you take their word for it", did the bolded part not hint at skepticism enough for you, it different from saying I saw, which I didn't.

Woah I have never not "bought" not into any mass delusion, I'm fascinated by it that's all. Could you be any more presumptious?

Adamantium

Adamantium wrote: »

When I visited both in 2002 and 2008, There was a solid bronze statue of Jesus Christ on the cross (about 30ft high) that has been weeping warm salty water continously from the leg since the 20th anniversary of the appraitions on June 23, 1981. The statue has been examined, lifted and there, but no piping was found. It was built in 1998.

It appears at the corner of his bent knee and the coating on that part of the statue has been worn away by tourists like myself pawing away at it. I tried blocking it, but it wouldn't stop.

Its incredible, the dripping water does appear from 2 visible hairline crevices, yet it seems to simply arise from the smooth surface, almost oozing from nothing.


Think the T1000 in Terminator 2 for a visual reference LOL


Tourists were just sitting there at it for a.... long long time.

Me and my dad were sitting looking with each on the steps saying "I have sat here trying to work out just how they did it.......... but its not possible is it?"



My first thought was bronze sweating in the heat, that seems very unlikely though.

From your photos there seems to be a water feature just next to the statue and the area around it appears to be very wet. You also mention that it's quite hot.

So barring it being a deliberate hoax or trick (which it very well could still be. after all, magicians show people the inside of their hats before pulling a rabbit out of it.) The most likely explanations are either condensation from the warm wet surroundings helped along by the shapes and features of the statue (the bend in the knee and/or the cracks making it easier for water to condensate.) Or possibly condensation on the inside of the statue that is leaking out of the cracks.
Or it could be some from of capillary action.

So leaving aside that there is no reason to leap to such an extraordinary explanation, why exactly would an all-powerful being who could create a universe make a statue weep from it's knee?
Why weeping from a knee? Knees don't weep.
Why not from the symbolic wounds of Jesus, surely that's much more of a sign, no?
And why water? Why not blood, which surely would be much harder to explain? If he's doing this, it must be because he wants it as a sign, so it doesn't make any sense for him to use magic, but only in a way that looks like it's not magic.

But why make a statue do anything? It would be far more helpful, convincing and kind for him to actually just cure people around the world without making them come see a mildly interesting statue.

If this "miracle" has convinced you of a god, it isn't a very kind, good or particularly clever God.

Gordon

Hopefully there's more than just water dripping from the foot of a statue that would make 'anyone' turn to god? If not, it's not saying much for people!

My first thoughts about the water coming from the knees are:
1) If it was at the eyes, nobody would see the water, or be able to touch it, as it's so high up.
2) With a water source contained within the hollow statue, the best place to put the leak would be at the bottom, to ensure that it could keep dripping for a long time without needing filled up.
3) Water coming from cracks, did Jesus have cracks in his knees that oozed water? He had pores probably, but you can't see them as cracks, if it's a miracle - why would there happen to be cracks and not invisible miraculous pores?

You believe what people told you about scientific testing but I presume there are no facts to back this up? They tested the water? Salty? Any DNA in it? Tears have DNA, if it didn't have DNA then it's just salty tasting water.

Cabaal

Medugorje....of feck,

I know several very holy joe's who even think that people that go to Medugorje are nuts, thats saying something as these holy joe's observe all the holy days and go to mass several times a week!

Outside of the water on jesus, lets look at the dancing sun shall we

Pilgrims have reported being able to look at the sun without hurting their eyes and seeing many different things: the Host spinning in the center of the sun, the sun spinning and dancing all around, it moving closer and farther away from them, different figures around the sun, such as hearts, crosses, etc.

If the sun moved closer or further in reality then we'd be screwed, all life on this planet would be screwed.
What is far more likely is people's eye's are playing tricks on them due to extended periods of looking at the sun....looking at the sun for extended periods without protection is a very very stupid thing to do.

endacl

I'm convinced OP. What time is mass?

Cabaal

Adamantium wrote: »

I've seen ****e in that place that would cause anybody to believe in God,

Thats a pretty bold and ill informed statement to make, case to back it up?

Gordon

Cabaal wrote: »

Thats a pretty bold and ill informed statement to make, case to back it up?

He saw water coming from a statue and other people saw an apparition:

Adamantium wrote: »

I was at one of those night apparitions as well at 10pm. Literally hundreds of people on the mountain , and it was a sea of flashing cameras and journalists. She did show for us (if you take their word for it)

Cabaal

Gordon wrote: »

He saw water coming from a statue and other people saw an apparition:

Not really something that would make me or really anyone I know believe in a god,

So hundreds of people with camera's and journalists, I suppose photographic evidence should be easy to find for the OP then? Google isn't throwing up anything except poor Photoshop jobs so far for me

robindch

Adamantium wrote: »

It appears at the corner of his bent knee [...]

These days, the best that god can do is to show up on toast and to dribble warm, salty water from the knee of a small brass statue.

Omnipotence ain't what it used to be.

Cabaal

robindch wrote: »

These days, the best that god can do is to show up on toast and to dribble warm, salty water from the knee of a small brass statue.

Omnipotence ain't what it used to be.

Yeah gods power really isn't

http://www.christianpost.com/news/modern-miracles-5-stories-for-bible-skeptics-from-its-a-god-thing-104832/

Modern Miracles: 5 Stories For Bible Skeptics From 'It's a God Thing'

4. Does God Watch Baseball?

Donald L. Jacobson, Sr. took his son out for a baseball game, and prayed on a whim, "Lord, it would sure be nice if I could get a baseball for my boy."

After this prayer, Ray Fosse, a famous catcher for the Portland Beavers, hit a home run, and the ball whizzed straight to the senior Jacobson's feet.

"Miracles are not always big," the father wrote. "Sometimes it is the small ones that shout the loudest of God's love and care for each of us."

"I've still got the ball," Jacobson Jr., the project's creator, told CP.

First off, this is counted as a Miracle? thats kind of scary...

Also didn't he just pray for personal gain?
Can I pray and ask that my wife wins the lotto? :pac:

Brian Shanahan

Adamantium wrote: »

<snip>

Re the dripping water the first thing is to look up capillary action. That satisfactiorily explains how the water can get up so far to drip down the knees. And you can even see a crack in the copper where your finger is.

Regarding the warmth, its water climbing up a copper statue in warm weather, of course it's going to be warm.

Salty is probably either due to the presence of copper sulphate as a reaction between the copper of the statue and climbing water, or maybe due to the acidity of the water either due to pollution or the water picking up acidic compounds in the ground.

endacl

Cabaal wrote: »

Can I pray and ask that my wife wins the lotto? :pac:

Don't forget to add the proviso that you would remain attractive to a millionaire wife! Miracles may come back to bite you in the bum...

Brian Shanahan

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

As for searching for unbiased opinions I think you're probably in the wrong place too. A lot of atheists hold their beliefs as staunchly as religious people hold theirs.

Seriously you're trotting out this lie?

Atheists don't have a belief, atheism is simply the non-belief in any god. Therefore they cant hold their beliefs re god staunchly because they have none.

The fact of the matter is, given current understanding of the universe, the most logical position is to for the moment assume that there are no gods, because a) there is no evidence for the existence of any god, and b) what evidence we have says there is no necessity for god for reality to exist.

_Whimsical_

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Seriously you're trotting out this lie?

Atheists don't have a belief, atheism is simply the non-belief in any god. Therefore they cant hold their beliefs re god staunchly because they have none.

The fact of the matter is, given current understanding of the universe, the most logical position is to for the moment assume that there are no gods, because a) there is no evidence for the existence of any god, and b) what evidence we have says there is no necessity for god for reality to exist.

Believing god does not exist is actually,a belief,though perhaps you're more comfortable calling it an opinion. Ultimately,from a place of sheer logic, it is not capable of ABSOLUTE proof.

Atheism has its own dogma,of course there are degrees of involvement so I won't claim every atheist is unable to be objective but I think you're fooling yourself if you believe that some,perhaps many who identify so strongly with the label that they frequent an online forum on the subject are completely objective.Modern atheism is becoming similar to religion.It has it's own revered personalities,it conveys a sense of intelligence/worthiness to the "non believer" that they have chosen the superior position and that those who believe otherwise are less capable of logical intelligent thought. In that respect it is divisive. It has come to spawn communities, from anti religion lobby groups to it's own "masses". It has it's own communities online that allow for reinforement of that lack of belief through constant discussion of the folly/stupidity of belief, rarely managing a balanced response or acknowledgement of any positives of religion, it even has some of it's own extremist paranoid crackpots.
That this forum is so busy and can get in a lather over such things as a man shaking some water on a road in Mayo is testament to there being some passionate,perhaps irrationally strongly held, feelings here.

Personally I don't think that it's a place to come to for a completely unbiased opinion anymore than I think any of the other of the religion boards might be.

endacl

Incorrect. But an understandable and common misconception. From a theistic point of view.

Cabaal

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Atheism has its own dogma,

Really, and what would they be exactly?

Say I don't believe in the existence of a supreme all powerful being..thats it, outside of that what principles laid down by an authority do I have to agree with?

For that matter what authority do I have to follow exactly?

The problem here is you are trying to apply how a religion is structured to a non-belief, that doesn't work. An atheist doesn't follow a "leader" or authority, an atheist simply doesn't believe in a god. They don't have any additional rules or beliefs to follow such as you do with a religion (sins, saints, holy men, popes etc etc etc etc)

Unlike a "faith" if you provide evidence to prove something else this view might potentially change, of course you'd have to provide factual evidence for this to happen and rightly so.

With a religion a leader has only to say something is true and the many will follow it and believe it,

gaynorvader

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Believing god does not exist is actually,a belief,though perhaps you're more comfortable calling it an opinion. Ultimately,from a place of sheer logic, it is not capable of ABSOLUTE proof.

Atheism has its own dogma,of course there are degrees of involvement so I won't claim every atheist is unable to be objective but I think you're fooling yourself if you believe that some,perhaps many who identify so strongly with the label that they frequent an online forum on the subject are completely objective.Modern atheism is becoming similar to religion.It has it's own revered personalities,it conveys a sense of intelligence/worthiness to the "non believer" that they have chosen the superior position and that those who believe otherwise are less capable of logical intelligent thought. In that respect it is divisive. It has come to spawn communities, from anti religion lobby groups to it's own "masses". It has it's own communities online that allow for reinforement of that lack of belief through constant discussion of the folly/stupidity of belief, rarely managing a balanced response or acknowledgement of any positives of religion, it even has some of it's own extremist paranoid crackpots.
That this forum is so busy and can get in a lather over such things as a man shaking some water on a road in Mayo is testament to there being some passionate,perhaps irrationally strongly held, feelings here.

Personally I don't think that it's a place to come to for a completely unbiased opinion anymore than I think any of the other of the religion boards might be.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief, there are some gnostic atheists that do actively believe that there is no god, but those are firmly in the minority in my experience.
The reason such stories are up on these boards is that it's the common theme that the board is based on. If you've read the thread on the Mayo road blessing, you'd have noticed that the main bone of contention is that the county council should be spending its resources on something practical rather than wasting them on prayer, which has no proven track record to speak of.

Dades

I've been to Medjegorie - before I was such a sceptic - and it was a factor in forming my current lack of belief. It was so clear to me there that there was a desperation to believe on the part of visitors in what looked like an obvious sham. It completely surprised me tbh.

The only thing I can think of to explain the crying Jesus, is that it really is Jesus crying at the contradictory, hypocritical asshatterly so many people have carried out in his name.

goose2005

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Re the dripping water the first thing is to look up capillary action. That satisfactiorily explains how the water can get up so far to drip down the knees. And you can even see a crack in the copper where your finger is.

Regarding the warmth, its water climbing up a copper statue in warm weather, of course it's going to be warm.

Salty is probably either due to the presence of copper sulphate as a reaction between the copper of the statue and climbing water, or maybe due to the acidity of the water either due to pollution or the water picking up acidic compounds in the ground.

Don't forget all the residues from people kissing/touching the statue with sweaty hands

Kivaro

Adamantium wrote: »

...............
My first thought was bronze sweating in the heat, that seems very unlikely though.

Miracle, Miracle, Miracle, but millions of little babies die of hunger in excruciating pain each year .....

Jesus wept.

Brian Shanahan

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Believing god does not exist is actually,a belief,though perhaps you're more comfortable calling it an opinion. Ultimately,from a place of sheer logic, it is not capable of ABSOLUTE proof.

And again you are wrong. Just because we don't have proof either way (and in fact we'll never have full proof of non-existence of any god {we have proof that YHWH doesn't exist, the fact that he is both logically and physically impossible is proof enough, but there may be some other being to which god is applicable that can exists}, as we can never prove a universal negative), but the fact that we cannot prove this does not matter.

And here's why, "there is no god" is the null hypothesis, it does not change any condition or any characteristic of the universe, that we know and understand, therefore it is not necessary to test it to be accepted. On the other hand the existence of any god would be a significant change to our current understanding of reality It is simply necessary that no other competing hypothesis can stand up to proper scientific scrutiny. And there has not been one single god hypothesis that has been able to stand up to even the most cursory examination, never mind the kind of scientific tests that, for example, the theory of evolution or general relativity have faced and so far passed.

It is not up to me to disprove god, but for you to prove it. And there has not been one single shred of evidence presented in the history of, well, history to even indicate that any god is possible, never mind necessary.

Brian Shanahan

goose2005 wrote: »

Don't forget all the residues from people kissing/touching the statue with sweaty hands

Ooh, I like that. Another explanation infinitely more plausible than goddidit.

Zubeneschamali

Adamantium wrote: »

I've seen ****e in that place that would cause anybody to believe in God

Oddly, folks who already believe in God, like Bishop Zanic of Mostar and his successor, Bishop Peric, fully investigated the phenomena and decided that nothing supernatural was taking place.

_Whimsical_

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

And again you are wrong. Just because we don't have proof either way (and in fact we'll never have full proof of non-existence of any god {we have proof that YHWH doesn't exist, the fact that he is both logically and physically impossible is proof enough, but there may be some other being to which god is applicable that can exists}, as we can never prove a universal negative), but the fact that we cannot prove this does not matter.

And here's why, "there is no god" is the null hypothesis, it does not change any condition or any characteristic of the universe, that we know and understand, therefore it is not necessary to test it to be accepted. On the other hand the existence of any god would be a significant change to our current understanding of reality It is simply necessary that no other competing hypothesis can stand up to proper scientific scrutiny. And there has not been one single god hypothesis that has been able to stand up to even the most cursory examination, never mind the kind of scientific tests that, for example, the theory of evolution or general relativity have faced and so far passed.

It is not up to me to disprove god, but for you to prove it. And there has not been one single shred of evidence presented in the history of, well, history to even indicate that any god is possible, never mind necessary.

I don't agree with your points completely. Whether God exists or not is something you've trashed out a million times and we might arrive at the same conclusion anyway for different reasons,so let's not bother.
I haven't said that there is a God anywhere here or argued with the fundamental premise of atheism. I have said that some atheists, particularly those on message boards are just as likely to be unobjective as religious people. I think reading the threads on this forum are proof of that.

gaynorvader wrote: »

Atheism is simply a lack of belief, there are some gnostic atheists that do actively believe that there is no god, but those are firmly in the minority in my experience.
The reason such stories are up on these boards is that it's the common theme that the board is based on. If you've read the thread on the Mayo road blessing, you'd have noticed that the main bone of contention is that the county council should be spending its resources on something practical rather than wasting them on prayer, which has no proven track record to speak of.

I realise this doesn't apply to ALL atheists before I start but it does apply to some.

There would be no need for a message board if atheism was simply a lack of belief,if it were not a passionately,even zealously held world view, if it didn't engender a one sided community,much like religious beliefs tend to.
The posts on the subject of the blessing of the road and also the one on placing of a crucifix in the Kerry council chamber are not mainly comprised of logical arguments or people ringing their hands about CoCo time being poorly spent(We don't know that money changed hands for the service after all). Most of the two threads are the same old ding dong of "oh sweet baby jebus those crazy religious people who don't know science and think blessings are magic" stuff. Equally we have "the hazards of belief thread", "the funny side of religion thread" the "ongoing religious scandals" thread all stickied. They aren't about lack of belief, they're about deriding and examining the faults of others and ultimately asserting and reinforcing a superiority for the choice of an alternative view.
There's a whole lot more than the nonchalance that comes with regular disbelief going on here. It's not an objective, unprejudiced environment.

endacl

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Ooh, I like that. Another explanation infinitely more plausible than goddidit.

Dribble? From the dribblin' idiots?

Dribbledidit!

Nodin

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

There would be no need for a message board if atheism was simply a lack of belief,if it were not a passionately,even zealously held world view, if it didn't engender a one sided community,much like religious beliefs tend to.
The posts on the subject of the blessing of the road and also the one on placing of a crucifix in the Kerry council chamber are not mainly comprised of logical arguments or people ringing their hands about CoCo time being poorly spent(We don't know that money changed hands for the service after all). Most of the two threads are the same old ding dong of "oh sweet baby jebus those crazy religious people who don't know science and think blessings are magic" stuff. .............

So we should entertain the idea that somebody who undergoes a certain initiation ceremony can supernaturally channel supernatural power into water and use it to prevent road accidents. Just to avoid being one-sided like.

Or maybe we shouldn't pass comment at all, close the forum and be cunas.

recedite

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Re the dripping water the first thing is to look up capillary action. That satisfactiorily explains how the water can get up so far to drip down the knees. And you can even see a crack in the copper where your finger is.

Regarding the warmth, its water climbing up a copper statue in warm weather, of course it's going to be warm.

Salty is probably either due to the presence of copper sulphate as a reaction between the copper of the statue and climbing water, or maybe due to the acidity of the water either due to pollution or the water picking up acidic compounds in the ground.

Capillary action seems likely, it may even have been designed into the statue.
Copper sulphate may be "a salt" but AFAIK it has a bitter or metallic taste. If there was chlorine in the water, and sodium in the alloy of the statue, it may be that actual sodium chloride is being formed at the crack, especially as chlorination is helped by UV light.

Or it could just be Jesus sweating, I mean who hasn't felt a bit of salty water oozing around their crack on a hot day?

Dades

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

There's a whole lot more than the nonchalance that comes with regular disbelief going on here. It's not an objective, unprejudiced environment.

And if religion affected none of us, this would be a quiet place. Unfortunately the place of power still afforded the church in this country means that people of no faith have a valid reason to speak out. It's not just an intellectual exercise, you see, there are real world concerns.

In Ireland, a lack of belief is ignored in favour of a majority belief in the education system in a way that cannot be ignored.

Ken bryan

Dades wrote: »

And if religion affected none of us, this would be a quiet place. Unfortunately the place of power still afforded the church in this country means that people of no faith have a valid reason to speak out. It's not just an intellectual exercise, you see, there are real world concerns.

In Ireland, a lack of belief is ignored in favour of a majority belief in the education system in a way that cannot be ignored.

Utter nonsense . As It,s the atheists who run this country now .
The Labour Party is constantly attacking the Catholic Church . So to is Kenny .
Yet both have their church gate collections once a year

The following are about two women who received a complete and instantaneous healing from multiple sclerosis. Their diseases had advanced far enough that they were paralyzed and in wheelchairs, with severe muscle deterioration. These two cases have been medically well-documented and submitted to the church.

“Rita Klaus, American, married with three daughters: she had multiple sclerosis for twenty-five years, getting about in a wheelchair. In February 1986 she read about Medjugorje and on the evening of 18 June after prayer she knew she must ask for healing: the next day she could move her feet and legs and by the same evening she ran upstairs, quite recovered.” 5

“Dr. L. Frigerio and his colleagues at the Specialist Clinical Institute of Milan had complied a dossier of 143 items on the cure of a forty-three-year-old Italian secretary and mother of three sons. Diana Basile. Multiple sclerosis had been diagnosed in 1972. Signora Basile suffered from perineal dermatitis; was blind in one eye, and could walk only with difficulty. In January 1984, all this was compounded by a severe clinical depression, as her physical condition continued to deteriorate. In May, a colleague in the office where Signora Basile had worked suggested that she should join a group going from Milan to Medjugorje.

“On the evening of 23rd May, she was in the church and a friend, Signora Novella, helped her to climb the steps up to the apparition room:

‘At that point I no longer wanted to enter the room…but the door was opened and I went in. I knelt just behind the door. When the children came in and knelt down…I heard a loud noise. After that I remember nothing, except an indescribable joy and certain forgotten episodes of my life passing before my eyes as though on film. When it was all over, I followed the children, who went straight to the main altar in the church. I was walking just like everybody else, and I knelt down just as they did. It didn’t actually occur to me that anything extraordinary had happened, until Signora Novella came up to me in tears.’

“The cure had been instantaneous. On the pilgrimage bus returning her to the hotel in Ljubuski, the other pilgrims embraced her and wept with amazement. That evening, Signora Basile found that the dermatitis had completely disappeared. Her right eye, useless for twelve years, had regained perfect vision – even better than that of the left eye which was only ninety percent good. Next day she walked the six miles from the hotel to the church at Medjugorje – barefoot. As if that were not enough, in the afternoon, she climbed the rocky path up the hill of apparitions.” 6
Mod EDIT:
Source

Mirko Brkic (of Banja Luka)

“Mirko broke his leg and a pin was placed in it. He was treated first in a hospital in Banja Luka and then in Belgrade. An open sore, under the knee of the broken leg, was treated many times, but the sore became deeper until the bone was visible. Doctors decided to amputate. Meanwhile Mirko’s family had made a vow to Our Lady, and prayed and fasted. The day before the scheduled amputation, the wound suddenly closed. The astonished doctors cancelled the operation. After several days the wound was completely healed over. The healing was made public on March 26, 1982.”

Turtwig used Edit:
Source.
...
It's super effective!

recedite wrote: »

Eh... whose word? The "visionaries"? You saw nothing, but you say "She did show for us". Seems like you have bought into the mass delusion. The same thing happened when I was there, but I interpreted it as a no-show.


Nonsense. Atheists suffer from a lack of beliefs if anything. I only went because some friends were going and it was a reasonably priced holiday, nevertheless I looked around with an open mind. I saw nothing in any way convincing. It is fascinating to see the effect of so many believers on each other though; the general sense of spirituality is heightened. But this is only the same effect as you would get if you spent the night in a supposedly haunted house with the lights turned off. The power of suggestion starts to take over from rational thought. It was years ago when I was there, before the salty statue. I'd like to see someone lift it off the ground with a JCB, and then see if it still pumps out the Jesus tears.

The power of Suggestion was not there at the beginning was it . Nor was it at Lourdes or Fatima . The latter 2 had to proven to Sceptics before they became known as spiritual places of worship

Turtwig

Dude, if you start using multi quote, that + button to the right a post, people may be more open to believing in the miracles!

Also if you wish to copy and paste material from another source you MUST cite that source!

Nodin

Ken bryan wrote: »

Utter nonsense . As It,s the atheists who run this country now .
The Labour Party is constantly attacking the Catholic Church . So to is Kenny .
Yet both have their church gate collections once a year

The following are about two women who received a complete and instantaneous healing from multiple sclerosis. Their diseases had advanced far enough that they were paralyzed and in wheelchairs, with severe muscle deterioration. These two cases have been medically well-documented and submitted to the church.

...........

There's nearly always a 1% chance of recovery, which is what occurs at these place.

Nodin

Adamantium wrote: »

When I visited both in 2002 and 2008, There was a solid bronze statue of Jesus Christ on the cross (about 30ft high) that has been weeping warm salty water continously from the leg since the 20th anniversary of the appraitions on June 23, 1981. The statue has been examined, lifted and there, but no piping was found. It was built in 1998.

................

The world today - a small selection - The war in Syria. The war in Congo. The colonisation of West Papua, the conflicts in Sudan, Ukraine, tensions in Azerbaijan, Northern China, maoist Rebels in India, caste violence, sectarian pogroms in Burma. Rape in post civil war Latin American states, Africa. Child abuse, wherever it occurs.

Cancer, AID's, outbreak of Ebola, hundreds of diseases unknown in the west, which take a vast toll in tropical and equatorial climes, children who are born with certain conditions, live a short pain filled existence and die.

To which the lord has answered = "solid bronze statue of Jesus Christ on the cross (about 30ft high) that has been weeping warm salty water continously from the leg since the 20th anniversary of the appraitions on June 23, 1981".

Seriously man, have a think.

Maphisto

Nodin wrote: »

The world today - a small selection - The war in Syria. The war in Congo. The colonisation of West Papua, the conflicts in Sudan, Ukraine, tensions in Azerbaijan, Northern China, maoist Rebels in India, caste violence, sectarian pogroms in Burma. Rape in post civil war Latin American states, Africa. Child abuse, wherever it occurs.

Cancer, AID's, outbreak of Ebola, hundreds of diseases unknown in the west, which take a vast toll in tropical and equatorial climes, children who are born with certain conditions, live a short pain filled existence and die.

To which the lord has answered = "solid bronze statue of Jesus Christ on the cross (about 30ft high) that has been weeping warm salty water continously from the leg since the 20th anniversary of the appraitions on June 23, 1981".

Seriously man, have a think.

Nicely put. Like you I don't care about these tricks. There might be an explanation, there might not.

I would be more impressed if an amputee was given a new limb. Like you say of all the things that could be fixed in the world showing us a card trick doesn't really cut it.

Canis Lupus

Ken bryan wrote: »

Utter nonsense . As It,s the atheists who run this country now .
The Labour Party is constantly attacking the Catholic Church . So to is Kenny .
Yet both have their church gate collections once a year

The following are about two women who received a complete and instantaneous healing from multiple sclerosis. Their diseases had advanced far enough that they were paralyzed and in wheelchairs, with severe muscle deterioration. These two cases have been medically well-documented and submitted to the church.



Mirko Brkic (of Banja Luka)







The power of Suggestion was not there at the beginning was it . Nor was it at Lourdes or Fatima . The latter 2 had to proven to Sceptics before they became known as spiritual places of worship

Who are all these medical miracles? A quick google seems to suggest the only place they're mentioned is on that website which is basically a sales pitch for the location. Are you able to provide any more information on them? I find it strange that there isn't an abundance of data on them despite being instantly cured of debilitating diseases even though your website states the cases are 'medically well-documented and submitted to the church'.

Have you any explanation as to why countless other sick people who go to that place don't get cured and that their number surely outweighs the handful you presented? Why is this? Are they not worthy enough? Pious enough? Didn't buy enough souvenirs?

Why does an all powerful god choose to heal people that go there? What about all the people too sick to go, too poor to go, geographically/politically unable to go?

Is the healing of god effectively a lottery, one slanted heavily in the favour of people basically rich enough to travel to a town in Bosnia?

jimd2

Is Medugorje still supposed to be happening? I had cousins travel there many years ago. It always seemed to be a strange phenomenon.

In reality it is bullsh!t. If the church hierarchy believed it was true and significant then they would be broadcasting it from the rooftops. I can't explain what is happening out there but don't really care.

Dades

Ken bryan wrote: »

Utter nonsense . As It,s the atheists who run this country now .

Damn atheists shutting our laundries and making our clergy accountable. Whatever next? Meat on a Friday? o_O

robindch

Dades wrote: »

accountable. Whatever next? Meat on a Friday? o_O

So long as it's not booze on Good Friday of course.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Believing god does not exist is actually,a belief,though perhaps you're more comfortable calling it an opinion. Ultimately,from a place of sheer logic, it is not capable of ABSOLUTE proof.

I think you should persist with this point. Many folk here think they can hide an ontological position in a discussion about grammar. As you hint at, there might be nuances involved in using terms like believe, assert or contend. But that's essentially irrelevant, as the point is that pretty much any statement that anyone makes about the nature of reality is uncertain.

Atheists can contend that our position is less extravagant than (for the sake of argument) Roman Catholicism. But even that doesn't quite work. Occam's Razor was originally an argument for the existence of God. And, indeed, a very simple explanation for everything is that somebody made it so.

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Atheism has its own dogma,of course there are degrees of involvement <...>

I know you qualify it yourself, but I do feel a need to add my comment that atheism has no dogma. But, much as you say, some atheists do want to bond an create an orthodoxy, ironically following a pattern they've learnt from religions. So there's an attempt to phrase a dogma around ideas like secular rules must be better than religious rules.

jimd2 wrote: »

If the church hierarchy believed it was true and significant then they would be broadcasting it from the rooftops. I can't explain what is happening out there but don't really care.

I think that says all that needs to be said on the topic.

Nodin

Maphisto wrote: »

Nicely put. Like you I don't care about these tricks. There might be an explanation, there might not.

I would be more impressed if an amputee was given a new limb. Like you say of all the things that could be fixed in the world showing us a card trick doesn't really cut it.

Funny enough, that's never happened. Ever. Anywhere. Yet the 1% remission happens regardless of location or religion.