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Location based arguments

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    #92
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    MadsL wrote: »
    ...However, the drip-drip of anti-American sentiment in AH gets quite wearisome ...
    There are many anti-something-or-other sentiments to be found in AH, and most of them are wearisome.

    I don't think it is reasonably possible to clear up all the low-quality posting. All that we can ask of the mods is to hold a line that is not drawn too clearly, and tackle the most egregious posts.


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    #93
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    MadsL wrote: »
    "It is a sad truth, but we have lost the faculty of giving lovely names to things. The man who could call a spade a spade should be compelled to use one. It is the only thing he is fit for."

    Oscar Wilde

    Employment based argument?
    Those lowly gardeners, Co. Council workers.........


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    #94
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    MugMugs wrote: »
    Sums it up nicely.

    Why isn't it? We are dangerously approaching a situation where we can't call a spade a spade here !

    The days when we all agreed what being a dick was are long gone. That's most of the issue.


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    #95
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,965 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    nesf wrote: »
    The days when we all agreed what being a dick was are long gone. That's most of the issue.

    Well the pool of people you need to reach quorum on the issue with has gone up exponentially.


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    #96
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Overheal wrote: »
    Well the pool of people you need to reach quorum on the issue with has gone up exponentially.

    It's the snag of diversity.


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    #97
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,965 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That might explain why bigots are so against diversity?


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    #98
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Overheal wrote: »
    Well the pool of people you need to reach quorum on the issue with has gone up exponentially.

    It was never really a question of quorum, more one of people having some idea of what was expected in online interactions. There were always trolls, spats between users etc but generally interaction was friendly. Boards had its "Eternal September" either sometime between '04 and '06 depending on who you talk to. Personally I think late '04, early '05 was around the time.

    It's not really a diversity thing as much as it was a changing/clashing of cultures thing.


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    #99
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The use of the word 'murica will not be banned. If the use of that word intends only to flame. It will be actioned.

    Are we not doing this now?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057143486

    Posts reported. Unactioned.


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    #100
    Get off my lawn!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Get off my lawn!


    It seems like we're talking about two different issues here.

    On the one hand are the kinds of comments, like 'Yanks are fat/Culchies are dumb/Jackeens are junkies', etc. They are annoying, but most seem to be just ignored or rationally refuted.

    However, there are some posters whose mission in life seems to be bashing the US at every opportunity possible. There are a few I can think of in the Politics forum who pretty much only start threads in order to criticize the US government. On the one hand, threads can just die a natural death. On the other hand, I can see how this can be annoying for other posters, because it is essentially soapboxing. And although soapboxing is against the charter (in Politics, anyway), it is also one of the more difficult issues for moderators to deal with.


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    #101
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    You might have a point with post #3, as it infers people are morons. The other posts I see as more a bashing of foreign policy than the population.
    MadsL wrote: »
    Posts reported. Unactioned.
    It's Friday. Relax.


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    #102
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 50,630 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MadsL wrote: »
    Are we not doing this now?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057143486

    Posts reported. Unactioned.

    It's been a very long and busy week in work and I'm out drinking some well deserved wine and eating yummy tapas, I'm not sure if the others are around but I'll have a look at it tomorrow if no one else has had the chance.


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    #103
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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    #104
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's been a very long and busy week in work and I'm out drinking some well deserved wine and eating yummy tapas, I'm not sure if the others are around but I'll have a look at it tomorrow if no one else has had the chance.

    Apologies whoops - wasn't aimed at you specifically, I was merely wondering if it was actionable now. Enjoy the wine and tapas. :D


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    #105
    Patrickheg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 225 ✭✭Patrickheg


    My opinion is that certain foreign based posters rub other posters up the wrong way.

    They give off the attitude that because they live abroad they are somehow better, more knowledgable and more cultured than those who choose to live in Ireland and they can't go 5 posts without mentioning the fact that they live abroad.


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    #106
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Patrickheg wrote: »
    My opinion is that certain foreign based posters rub other posters up the wrong way.

    They give off the attitude that because they live abroad they are somehow better, more knowledgable and more cultured than those who choose to live in Ireland and they can't go 5 posts without mentioning the fact that they live abroad.

    Perhaps you should post some examples, otherwise this comes across as a rather inflammatory anecdote.


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    #107
    Patrickheg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 225 ✭✭Patrickheg


    MadsL wrote: »
    Perhaps you should post some examples, otherwise this comes across as a rather inflammatory anecdote.

    I would but it would probably be viewed as attacking individual posters.


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    #108
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Patrickheg wrote: »
    I would but it would probably be viewed as attacking individual posters.

    You don't need to quote the poster - just the text.


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    #109
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,965 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Patrickheg wrote: »
    My opinion is that certain foreign based posters rub other posters up the wrong way.

    They give off the attitude that because they live abroad they are somehow better, more knowledgable and more cultured than those who choose to live in Ireland and they can't go 5 posts without mentioning the fact that they live abroad.

    I'd also like to see examples of this. Or can you even give an anecdotal example?


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    #110
    LoLth
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,339 Mod ✭✭✭✭LoLth


    As MadSl says, without some form of evidence to support your statement that comes across as extremely vague and not very helpful PatrickHeg.

    I could post, "I get the impression that several posters write their posts while wearing tutus" , without any evidence to support it its just an empty statement with no value nor does it add anything to the conversation other than come across as an attempt to draw in the "yeah! right! tutu-wearing should be illegal!" brigade.

    Linking to examples that explain your opinion wont be taken as an attack on an individual (and linking is better than quoting because that allows context to be seen). As long as you are open to the possibility that others might not agree with you and are prepared to accept that you may be mis-reading a poster's intentions.


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    #111
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    LoLth wrote: »
    As MadSl says, without some form of evidence to support your statement that comes across as extremely vague and not very helpful PatrickHeg.

    I could post, "I get the impression that several posters write their posts while wearing tutus" , without any evidence to support it its just an empty statement with no value nor does it add anything to the conversation other than come across as an attempt to draw in the "yeah! right! tutu-wearing should be illegal!" brigade.

    Linking to examples that explain your opinion wont be taken as an attack on an individual (and linking is better than quoting because that allows context to be seen). As long as you are open to the possibility that others might not agree with you and are prepared to accept that you may be mis-reading a poster's intentions.

    I think that posters view is based on the original reason the op started this thread. He's done a good job of finding an actual problem here but looking at the OP his reasons for coming here were that his opinions in general were being dismissed because he didnt live in Ireland. Not some sort of anti american sentiment permeating the forum despite this thread turning into that.

    I personally dont think anyone gives off the impression they are better than anyone else but from my interactions with Madsl in AH he has often refused to concede that life in America is not life in Ireland. On the topic of tipping for example he persisted with the argument that tipping was the done and expected thing and that it makes a portion of peoples wages. Because that is how it is where he lives. He blank ignored any attempt to explain Ireland is not the US and things are different. And its that refusal to concede that its a mostly Irish forum and hammer on engaging with a different societal view that creates friction. It is certainly the root of any issue I might have with him.

    Its also patently clear to regular AH users or looking at his posting history that he spends a lot of his time on this website defending anything American. Now he's perfectly entitled to do that, but its no surprise that he experiences a lot of dismissal in relation to where he lives when its clear as day that no matter the topic if it involves America he will be a prolific poster with a pre defined and well rehearsed opinion creating friction.

    So I'd have to agree with that previous poster in some respect (if I got his point right). If you go out of your way to repeatedly seek out arguments related to a certain location and create a lot of friction while doing it the dismissals (which are unavoidable in AH, its what sets AH apart from other forums, its acceptable to be a dick) will come across as "location based arguments". And although this thread has diverged from his original issue of being dismissed to discuss an actual issue of xenophobia or the use of derogatory terms in relation to American people (both of which are genuine issues but have little to do with why the OP started this thread) the original issue is imo no more valid than anyone else being upset at being dismissed in any other way.

    I hope Madsl doesnt take any offence to this post either as I dont mean to offend by posting it. I just thought it might be good to throw my two cents in on why he had the issues he had that led to him starting this thread.


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    #112
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    I think that posters view is based on the original reason the op started this thread. He's done a good job of finding an actual problem here but looking at the OP his reasons for coming here were that his opinions in general were being dismissed because he didnt live in Ireland. Not some sort of anti american sentiment permeating the forum despite this thread turning into that.

    I personally dont think anyone gives off the impression they are better than anyone else but from my interactions with Madsl in AH he has often refused to concede that life in America is not life in Ireland. On the topic of tipping for example he persisted with the argument that tipping was the done and expected thing and that it makes a portion of peoples wages. Because that is how it is where he lives. He blank ignored any attempt to explain Ireland is not the US and things are different. And its that refusal to concede that its a mostly Irish forum and hammer on engaging with a different societal view that creates friction. It is certainly the root of any issue I might have with him.

    Its also patently clear to regular AH users or looking at his posting history that he spends a lot of his time on this website defending anything American. Now he's perfectly entitled to do that, but its no surprise that he experiences a lot of dismissal in relation to where he lives when its clear as day that no matter the topic if it involves America he will be a prolific poster with a pre defined and well rehearsed opinion creating friction.

    So I'd have to agree with that previous poster in some respect (if I got his point right). If you go out of your way to repeatedly seek out arguments related to a certain location and create a lot of friction while doing it the dismissals (which are unavoidable in AH, its what sets AH apart from other forums, its acceptable to be a dick) will come across as "location based arguments". And although this thread has diverged from his original issue of being dismissed to discuss an actual issue of xenophobia or the use of derogatory terms in relation to American people (both of which are genuine issues but have little to do with why the OP started this thread) the original issue is imo no more valid than anyone else being upset at being dismissed in any other way.

    I hope Madsl doesnt take any offence to this post either as I dont mean to offend by posting it. I just thought it might be good to throw my two cents in on why he had the issues he had that led to him starting this thread.

    I don't have time for a long response at the moment but to address this briefly;

    1. I know well that "life in America is not life in Ireland" I lived in Ireland for 15 years. I tipped in Ireland :D

    2. I do not "repeatedly seek out arguments related to a certain location and create a lot of friction" I naturally have a point of view relating to where I live and as I am married to an American I find comments such as "stupid yanks" offensive. Making the opposing argument is not 'creating friction'. It is simply stating my position. This should by no means be more unusual or worthy of comment that someone responding to comments about "stupid culchies".

    Also - I really respect Artful Badger's honesty. Good post.


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    #113
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    I dont really want to go too far into the personal aspects of this. But just to address this part "This should by no means be more unusual or worthy of comment that someone responding to comments about "stupid culchies". Your original point was about people dismissing you because you lived in America.

    Its not any more unusual or worthy of comment but there is always a fair amount of dismissive people in AH. The fact you post a lot in threads about America with an America viewpoint (as do others who live in America) just means you're going to get the brunt of the dismissive stuff relating to that. So its going to seem like your targeted, when I think no matter what threads you post in if there is a pattern to the threads there's going to be a pattern to the crap you get.

    Lots of American threads = lots of crap directed at America/Americans. Lots of social welfare threads = lots of crap directed at those on social welfare.


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    #114
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    I dont really want to go too far into the personal aspects of this. But just to address this part "This should by no means be more unusual or worthy of comment that someone responding to comments about "stupid culchies".

    Its not any more unusual or worthy of comment but there is always a fair amount of dismissive people in AH. The fact you post a lot in threads about America with an America viewpoint (as do others who live in America) just means you're going to get the brunt of the dismissive stuff relating to that. So its going to seem like your targeted, when I think no matter what threads you post in if there is a pattern to the threads there's going to be a pattern to the crap you get.

    Well I guess that is why I think as the site grows geographically (already a massive overseas segment) there should be little tolerance for users taking crap based on where they live or where they are born.


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    #115
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88938800#post88938800

    I don't know why you felt the need to reply to a thread like that, twas obviously a grave dig, no big deal, but seems like somebody actively looking for offence on their pet subject, and an obsessive need to get a reply, any reply, to a thread mentioning America.

    It's an example of being like a fly to shyte on anything mentioning America, sorry to be so blunt. You are a bit obsessive about American criticism and topics, it's a bit of a hobby horse for you, and that's fair enough. I wouldn't like to see AH pander too much to it. That's my general point. I don't like West Brit comments either, but I don't see the need for banning the phrase, the comment sums up the intelligence of the poster.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #116
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    K-9 wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88938800#post88938800

    I don't know why you felt the need to reply to a thread like that, twas obviously a grave dig, no big deal, but seems like somebody actively looking for offence on their pet subject, and an obsessive need to get a reply, any reply, to a thread mentioning America.

    It's an example of being like a fly to shyte on anything mentioning America, sorry to be so blunt. You are a bit obsessive about American criticism and topics, it's a bit of a hobby horse for you, and that's fair enough. I wouldn't like to see AH pander too much to it. That's my general point. I don't like West Brit comments either, but I don't see the need for banning the phrase, the comment sums up the intelligence of the poster.

    See, these are the kind of comments that piss people off and start trouble.

    There are several ad hominems in your criticism. This is personalising the talk.


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    #117
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    See, these are the kind of comments that piss people off and start trouble.

    There are several ad hominems in your criticism. This is personalising the talk.

    It's difficult to give an on thread example without it being a bit personal, I was just giving an example as was asked, I think Madsl will take it in the spirit intended.

    I'm just giving an alternative opinion. I'd say if you went through every thread related to America in the last few years Madsl would be in it 80% of the time. That's no criticism of M, that's her interest.

    I gave my comparison, I don't like West Brit comments, it's very British xenophobic plus a bit of hating fellow Irish people, just as bad as 'Merica. When it is over used in a thread, then there's an issue. When it's a one off in a thread, not the end of the world.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #118
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    K-9 here are my three comments on that thread.
    MadsL wrote: »
    Well done at catching him.

    Took me a minute to figure out.

    Reference to the grave digging troll.
    MadsL wrote: »
    Don't start this up again ffs.

    Response to a silly comment.
    MadsL wrote: »
    I think you need to change who you drink with...

    Response to the people someone went drinking with being dry and mean.

    Anything objectionable?


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    #119
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    K-9 wrote: »
    I'm just giving an alternative opinion. I'd say if you went through every thread related to America in the last few years Madsl would be in it 80% of the time. That's no criticism of M, that's her interest.

    Just for balance, here are 136 posts in AH where you reference Donegal.
    http://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?query=Donegal&forum=7&user=96606&date_from=&date_to=
    and 138 posts in AH where I reference America.
    http://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?query=America+&forum=&user=17006&date_from=&date_to=

    :D

    So, just to say this thread is drifting to more about me (arguments ad hominem) not about the topic (arguments ad locum) - could we get back on topic?

    Oh and I'm a him just for accuracy. The straight razor in my sig is a bit of a giveaway :D


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    #120
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    MadsL wrote: »
    K-9 here are my three comments on that thread.



    Reference to the grave digging troll.



    Response to a silly comment.



    Response to the people someone went drinking with being dry and mean.

    Anything objectionable?

    Nothing, just seems you couldn't resist the urge to post because the thread was about America, fair enough.
    MadsL wrote: »
    Just for balance, here are 136 posts in AH where you reference Donegal.
    http://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?query=Donegal&forum=7&user=96606&date_from=&date_to=
    and 138 posts in AH where I reference America.
    http://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?query=America+&forum=&user=17006&date_from=&date_to=

    :D

    So, just to say this thread is drifting to more about me (arguments ad hominem) not about the topic (arguments ad locum) - could we get back on topic?

    Oh and I'm a him just for accuracy. The straight razor in my sig is a bit of a giveaway :D

    I'm not on a crusade about objectionable comments about people from Donegal though! I'd also wager threads about Donegal come up rarely on AH in comparison to American ones, which your comparison obviously ignores. American threads would encompass far more than just mentions of the country.

    The example is on topic, it's a thread about America on AH. I'm sorry if I chose one not to your liking.

    I don't have sigs turned on, I think 95% of users are the same IIRC the stat!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #121
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    K-9 wrote: »
    Nothing, just seems you couldn't resist the urge to post because the thread was about America, fair enough.

    You projected that on me. If I start a thread on Donegal, chances are you will comment - do you therefore jump on every thread about Donegal?
    I'm not on a crusade about objectionable comments about people from Donegal though!

    Crusade? Ouch.
    I'd also wager threads about Donegal come up rarely on AH in comparison to American ones, which your comparison obviously ignores. American threads would encompass far more than just mentions of the country.

    You imply I post obsessively about where I live. I merely showed you that so do you. We have remarkable similar stats.
    The example is on topic, it's a thread about America on AH. I'm sorry if I chose one not to your liking.

    But the thread is NOT about America. It is for example about me dissing your views on Dublin because you are from Donegal.
    I don't have sigs turned on, I think 95% of users are the same IIRC the stat!

    Fair enough. Why did you think I was female out of interest?


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