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Is rape always about power?

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    #92
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    Originally Posted by Dave! viewpost.gif
    So could it be, say, 60% about sex, 40% about power in some situations? Or even 80/20?

    Tbh, I don't think you can separate it. In a rapist's mindset sex and power are fused, so that sexual satisfaction is gained from power, and, mentally, vice versa. In my opinion, it isn't like a normal person's attitude towards sex at all.


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    #93
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Pug160 wrote: »
    I think (and this is just my opinion) that in some cases a man who has an obsession with pretty girls might commit rape because his frustration at not being able to attract this type of woman boils over into rage and he takes back a perceived lack of power by gaining it by force. I don't know if this constitutes a small percentage of rapists but it does seem plausible to me.

    Yeah, you're spot on. Feelings of inadequacy with women and insecurity contribute in a lot of cases. Of course, lots of people are insecure and feel inadequate, but the majority don't cope with it by raping.


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    #94
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,603 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    A decent chunk of rape in Ireland is ignorance. Before I go any further, ignorance should not be a legal or morale defense for rape. In this country it is often incorrectly treated as either or sometimes both. But some lads take girls home who are too drunk to consent they get themselves worked up, they convince themselves the girl wants to carry through with it and they rape. I dunno if it's about power in all cases of date rape, I'd say sometimes it's just about Sex.

    Again, that is not a defence, and it's the kind of thing that should be preventable. Us males need more respect.

    It's what the don't be that guy / person campaigns in all the unis are trying to target.


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    #95
    Pug160
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Pug160


    Faith wrote: »
    Yeah, you're spot on. Feelings of inadequacy with women and insecurity contribute in a lot of cases. Of course, lots of people are insecure and feel inadequate, but the majority don't cope with it by raping.

    Absolutely. That goes without saying. You might be surprised by how many 'male loser' sympathisers there are though. About 3 years ago, a man in America, George Sodini I think his name was, went into a gym and shot up a group of women. He may or may not have had a mental illness, and there was probably other factors which contributed to his actions, but the main one seemed to be his frustration at not being validated by a good looking woman. A large number of people felt for this guy, going by the replies on forums and news outlets.


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    #96
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Faith wrote: »
    Like I said, nobody has a specific formula.

    That's fine then. But if you hear commentary about rape in the media and the like, I promise that you'll find the unchallenged premise of the discussion is that rape is about power/control, and nothing to do with sex. You appear to have insinuated the same thing earlier.

    If nobody has a specific formula, then maybe we can stop trying to stifle discussion around the balance the different factors and motivations might play in the crime.
    Faith wrote: »
    I find it odd that you're so attached to the idea that rape is about sex.

    I'm not attached to any idea, and am open to persuasion on any topic. My motivation here is to challenge a received wisdom which is repeated without challenge, possibly for politically correct or sensitivity reasons.
    Faith wrote: »
    Do you prefer to believe that men are so desperate for sex that they'll forcibly rape women just to get a ride? That they're so weak and lacking in self-control that rape is a viable option?

    Pretty petty comment really. It doesn't matter what I "prefer" to believe; I'm trying to establish what is or isn't a fact, not to support my ideology or preconceptions. If it turns out that rape is primarily driven by men's desperation and over-active sex drive, then that's how it goes - we should deal with that fact as a society. We shouldn't let politically correct notions drive us. Similarly if rape is primarily about power, then that's the way it is. Facts are facts, "belief" doesn't come into it.

    Given your own comment above, maybe I should turn the question on you? Are you driven by some sort of feminist ideology that prevents you from accepting the notion that men might simply rape women for purely carnal reasons, because the opportunity presents itself and because they can, so you have to brush that aside and seek a deeper reason?

    This reminds me of what Michael Shermer suggests about conspiracy theories; people perceive certain people/places as larger-than-life, too big to be brought down by something small. So when JFK was assassinated, or the US was attacked on 9/11, people frantically scramble to find a more sinister and vast plot than the mundane and disappointing truth - that it was just a lunatic with a rifle, or it was a bunch of nuts who hate America.

    Maybe there's something similar at play here.
    Faith wrote: »
    If you read the link I posted, you'll see that rapists often have regular, consensual sexual partners. So, in those cases, it's unlikely to be about an unstoppable desire for sex.

    People who cheat on their spouses may have regular, consensual sex too. Doesn't stop them seeking affection elsewhere (younger, more attractive?)


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    #97
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,603 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Should also probably point out that most things most people (men are particularly guilty) do are about power.

    I don't do things that make me feel less powerful.


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    #98
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Dave! wrote: »

    Given your own comment above, maybe I should turn the question on you? Are you driven by some sort of feminist ideology that prevents you from accepting the notion that men might simply rape women for purely carnal reasons, because the opportunity presents itself and because they can, so you have to brush that aside and seek a deeper reason?

    No, I'm driven by the fact that I'm a psychologist who has studied the topic in some depth, and plan to make a career out of working in the area. I'm driven by research. If you're really interested in studying the topic in greater detail, I can point you towards some useful references?

    It's not going to turn out that rape is primarily driven by men's desperation and over-active sex drive. You write as if this is a new topic that's never been looked at before. There is mountains of research into the topic, and the vast majority points towards power underpinning rape. As always, there are dissenting opinions, and again, I can point you towards theorists who believe that sex has more to do with it than is generally accepted. I stress though, they're currently in the minority.

    You might have a point about conspiracy theories if it wasn't for me only saying what the research has determined. I'm quite comfortable trusting in science for this one. I'm not on my own here.

    As for your last point, are you comparing cheaters with rapists? :confused: I'm not sure I get your point.


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    #99
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Depends.

    Guy comes home with a drunk girl, she passes out, he has sex with her. It's rape but probably driven by horniness.

    Then you have premeditated rapists, who get off on the planning and then execution,There is certainly a degree of powerat play and a sexual desire.

    To say it is all about power and never about sex is absurd in my opinion.


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    #100
    BlimpGaz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 86 ✭✭BlimpGaz


    If you examine the sexual behaviour of chimpanzees, you'll see that the males are divided into "alphas" and "betas". Alphas are the minority who get their way sexually with the female chips whenever they want, and the females will automatically always comply. However the same females will mostly resist the betas' sexual advances, and the alphas will have to step in to intervene. When the alphas aren't around though, the betas freely have their way sexually with the female chimps, you might say via rape. Of course chimpanzees don't have the potential to experience irrational emotional problems, or have qualms about sex, so the only result of the rapes are females getting briefly pissed off.

    The said situation with chips is obviously about sexual gratification, as chimps don't have any deeper motives like humans do. It seems fairly obvious that rape in modern human civilization is simply an extension of the above, with added lack of morality from the perpetrators as humans understand the venerable nature of other humans as they too are so.

    Rape is by and large not so different than any other form of theft. When people say this "it's about power" stuff, it reminds me of when people say that robbers steal for the thrill of it, rather than to acquire that which they desire. Sexual gratification plays out as a form of mental acquisition, no different than the acquisition of material possessions.


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    #101
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Ladies, please. Can't it be about power AND sex?


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    #102
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Faith wrote: »
    No, I'm driven by the fact that I'm a psychologist who has studied the topic in some depth, and plan to make a career out of working in the area. I'm driven by research. If you're really interested in studying the topic in greater detail, I can point you towards some useful references?

    By all means, some online resources would be good, particularly ones that critically analyse the studies that have been done.
    Faith wrote: »
    It's not going to turn out that rape is primarily driven by men's desperation and over-active sex drive. You write as if this is a new topic that's never been looked at before. There is mountains of research into the topic, and the vast majority points towards power underpinning rape. As always, there are dissenting opinions, and again, I can point you towards theorists who believe that sex has more to do with it than is generally accepted. I stress though, they're currently in the minority.

    No, I know it won't point to that, I'm being slightly facetious and simplifying, as you did in your previous post.

    Everyone has acknowledged that power is a factor. However you've said yourself that there is no formula. I wouldn't suggest there's a simple equation, but the fact that you didn't feel comfortable ruling out a couple of rough suggestions of the ratios might suggest it's not as straight-forward, nor the science as rigorous, as you're trying to present it.
    Faith wrote: »
    You might have a point about conspiracy theories if it wasn't for me only saying what the research has determined. I'm quite comfortable trusting in science for this one. I'm not on my own here.

    I'm aware that it's a popular conclusion. Admittedly I haven't engaged with the literature on it, and am giving my thoughts off the top of my head, but it's a rather sensitive and loaded issue, so my feeling is that this may influence the research. I'm open to persuasion.
    Faith wrote: »
    As for your last point, are you comparing cheaters with rapists? :confused: I'm not sure I get your point.

    I'm saying that having regular consensual sexual contact doesn't preclude one from sexual misconduct or deviancy.


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    #103
    BlimpGaz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 86 ✭✭BlimpGaz


    Certain individuals seem to be desperate to believe that rape is solely about power. I think they want to pin as much blame as is possible on the rapist. The idea of it being about sexual gratification - and sexual gratification being a biological drive and psychological need - deflects the blame somewhat away from the rapist, and onto more complex and perhaps societal issues. Whereas a rapist being driven by power can easily be equated completely with the individual and their total greed and disregard.


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    #104
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Dave! wrote: »
    By all means, some online resources would be good, particularly ones that critically analyse the studies that have been done.

    Ah. You see, that's a bit mutually exclusive. I can point you towards textbooks and peer-reviewed journal articles, but online resources are very murky. I only felt comfortable linking to the previous page because I can confirm the information via textbook. I wouldn't link to any online resources that I can't confirm have been peer-reviewed. Do you have access to an institutional login for electronic scientific databases? At least, you could try scholar.google.com and enter terms like "motivations for rape". Some PDFs might be available, with a variety of opinions.
    Everyone has acknowledged that power is a factor. However you've said yourself that there is no formula. I wouldn't suggest there's a simple equation, but the fact that you didn't feel comfortable ruling out a couple of rough suggestions of the ratios might suggest it's not as straight-forward, nor the science as rigorous, as you're trying to present it.

    I didn't rule it out because I'm not in a position to. Someone with a lot of research experience in the field might be happy to, but I can't claim that yet. In any case, motivations are never going to be straight-forward or rigourously defined. But we can understand the general underpinnings, which is what I outlined. Of course there's a variety of factors at play, but we can say with reasonable certainty that the most influential of them is power.


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    #105
    General General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭General General


    I find it hard to think of any human action that isn't in some way to do with power.


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    #106
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    General General wrote: »
    I find it hard to think of any human action that isn't in some way to do with power.

    Guys who spend alot of time in the pub, for instance? More to do with Powers, I should think!


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    #107
    General General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭General General


    feargale wrote: »
    Guys who spend alot of time in the pub, for instance? More to do with Powers, I should think!

    Well, in that situation, there is the exertion of power to do as one pleases, then there are the people who are 'in' & the people who are 'out' of a given circle in that pub from any drinker's point of view... within & without that circle, there are various examples of 'power play' that go on.

    Think of the guy who has 'his' bar stool as an extreme case.


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    #108
    BlimpGaz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 86 ✭✭BlimpGaz


    Faith wrote: »
    I'm quite comfortable trusting in science for this one. I'm not on my own here.

    Since when is Psychology equivalent with empirical science?

    If you do the research without bias, you'll see there are a very broad range of opinions on this subject from equally qualified individuals.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence#Sexual_gratification
    Though anger and power are believed, by some academics, to be the primary motivation for most rapes,[9] in 1994, Richard Felson coauthored the controversial book "Aggression and Coercive Actions: A Social-Interactionist Perspective" with James Tedeschi, a book which argues that sexual fulfillment is the motive of rapists, rather than the aggressive desire to dominate the victim.[10] Felson believes that rape is an aggressive form of sexual coercion and the goal of rape is sexual satisfaction rather than power. Most rapists do not have a preference for rape over consensual sex.[11][12][13][14][15][16] In one study, male rapists evaluated with penile plethysmography demonstrated more arousal to forced sex and less discrimination between forced and consensual sex than non-rapist control subjects, though both groups responded more strongly to consensual sex scenarios.[17]


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    #109
    BlimpGaz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 86 ✭✭BlimpGaz


    General General wrote: »
    Well, in that situation, there is the exertion of power to do as one pleases, then there are the people who are 'in' & the people who are 'out' of a given circle in that pub from any drinker's point of view... within & without that circle, there are various examples of 'power play' that go on.

    Think of the guy who has 'his' bar stool as an extreme case.

    If that's what power means, then you'd have to equate all desire that's not for sex, food, drugs (etc.) as desire for power. This kind of desire may well be the main motive for rapists (rather than the actual physical sensation of sex), but you cannot say a rapist desires the kind of power a dictator does (which the notion "sex is about power" seems to imply), any more than he desires the kind of power as a guy who wants his very own bar stool.

    I think this is mostly a linguistics problem. Power is a far too ambiguous term.


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    #110
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    General General wrote: »
    Well, in that situation, there is the exertion of power to do as one pleases, then there are the people who are 'in' & the people who are 'out' of a given circle in that pub from any drinker's point of view... within & without that circle, there are various examples of 'power play' that go on.
    Think of the guy who has 'his' bar stool as an extreme case.
    You mean the 2 guys discussing Sunday's match, the guy singing the boozy song, the two half pissed honeymooners, the troubled guy drowning his sorrows? They're all playing a power game? Ah come on!


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    #111
    General General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭General General


    feargale wrote: »
    You mean the 2 guys discussing Sunday's match, the guy singing the boozy song, the two half pissed honeymooners, the troubled guy drowning his sorrows? They're all playing a power game? Ah come on!

    My point is that there are aspects of power play going on in many if not all those situations mentioned, yes.

    I think that saying that any action (or most actions anyway) are about power is essentially saying nothing (or stating the bleeding obvious).

    However, as I don't want to derail the thread, we should likely stop here - stating which is, I must add, partially a power play.


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    #112
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    Males seem to argue mainly sexual gratification and females seem to argue power. And this issue seems to generate alot of heat. I wonder if there is an agenda at play. And I wonder how much it matters. People, for whatever motive, take what they are not entitled to, and it's illegal and immoral. Has any of the research included interviews with rapists?


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    #113
    BlimpGaz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 86 ✭✭BlimpGaz


    feargale wrote: »
    Males seem to argue mainly sexual gratification and females seem to argue power.

    Wouldn't males be in a better position to estimate rapists' motives? as let's face it, we're talking about male on female rape here. I'm not saying "all men are potential rapists" by the way, but just stating that males have a slight edge because they possess and therefore have more understanding of the male sexual drive.


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    #114
    Pug160
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Pug160


    I do agree with what some of the other posters are trying to say as well. I don't think some women fully understand how primal some men can be. And I'm certainly not saying that to try to belittle my own sex. Sexual gratification for sexual gratification's sake is at play as well as the power of committing the rape itself I think. I think most of us are agreeing with each other to some extent here.

    One thing I'd be interested in finding out is how physically attractive a lot of victims are. I think that would give a lot of answers. How the attackers look would also be of significance.

    If Brad Pitt were to go out and rape a woman, I think it would be safe to say that it wasn't done to satisfy a sexual urge alone, as he'd have plenty of opportunities to fulfill that urge with a willing partner. If it's a very average and or below average man, then there's a possibility that it could be done to fulfill a primal urge. It sounds terribly simple, but it's just one scenario out of many. There are very selfish men out there who are opportunists and who will take what they want, just like a thief would. Power, frustration, mental illness/delusion, sexual gratification, women hatred, selfishness. It could be any of those things and more.


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    #115
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    BlimpGaz wrote: »
    Wouldn't males be in a better position to estimate rapists' motives?

    Not necessarily. I'd wager there are even rapists who aren't consciously aware of why the rape.


    I'm am however sceptical of the claim that it's always about power. I'd say serial rapists do it predominantly because of power but for one-off/opportunistic rapists there could be a wide array of reasons from simple lust to various disorders.


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    #116
    Ruudi_Mentari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭Ruudi_Mentari


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiUaXPQDqg


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    #117
    BlimpGaz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 86 ✭✭BlimpGaz


    Pug160 wrote: »
    I do agree with what some of the other posters are trying to say as well. I don't think some women fully understand how primal some men can be. And I'm certainly not saying that to try to belittle my own sex. Sexual gratification for sexual gratification's sake is at play as well as the power of committing the rape itself I think. I think most of us are agreeing with each other to some extent here.

    One thing I'd be interested in finding out is how physically attractive a lot of victims are. I think that would give a lot of answers. How the attackers look would also be of significance.

    If Brad Pitt were to go out and rape a woman, I think it would be safe to say that it wasn't done to satisfy a sexual urge alone, as he'd have plenty of opportunities to fulfill that urge with a willing partner. If it's a very average and or below average man, then there's a possibility that it could be done to fulfill a primal urge. It sounds terribly simple, but it's just one scenario out of many. There are very selfish men out there who are opportunists and who will take what they want, just like a thief would. Power, frustration, mental illness/delusion, sexual gratification, women hatred, selfishness. It could be any of those things and more.

    I've heard the 'power argument' being justified before by the fact that often times a rapist will have a wife/girlfriend and therefore access to sex at the time of committing a rape, but this doesn't factor into the equation that men often desire casual sex with multiple partners. The real tell-tale sign would be if a man had access to multiple women for casual sex and didn't feel like a sexual conquest was a big deal, yet STILL raped.

    I think women and men relate to sex very differently, which causes a lot of confusion, and assumptions on women's part about the motivation of men's sexual desires.


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    #118
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    Faith wrote: »
    Like I said, nobody has a specific formula.

    I find it odd that you're so attached to the idea that rape is about sex. Do you prefer to believe that men are so desperate for sex that they'll forcibly rape women just to get a ride? That they're so weak and lacking in self-control that rape is a viable option?

    If you read the link I posted, you'll see that rapists often have regular, consensual sexual partners. So, in those cases, it's unlikely to be about an unstoppable desire for sex.

    I prefer to know the truth and not make bizarre assumptions.

    If rapes were taking place due to sexual desperation, which I don't assume, that means those particular rapists were so desperate for sex that they used force.

    It doesn't mean men in general are "desperate for sex".

    And your problem here could be precisely that you are believing what you want to believe. I prefer to look at the evidence and make a conclusion based on reality, not how I want the world to work.


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    #119
    tigger123
    Registered Users Posts: 4,456 ✭✭✭tigger123


    Three Seasons wrote: »
    ...

    And your problem here could be precisely that you are believing what you want to believe. I prefer to look at the evidence and make a conclusion based on reality, not how I want the world to work.

    Not so sure After Hours is the most appropriate place for "evidence" or "reality".


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    #120
    Noodleworm
    Registered Users Posts: 717 ✭✭✭Noodleworm


    I think a lot of people here are discounting the fact that most rape cases are not a stranger jumping out in a dark alley.
    They are done by people the victim know, so could be an acquaintance, friends, someone there on a date with. and a lot of the time substances play a role, mostly alcohol. Many cases are where some guy took advantage of the fact some girl was passed out.


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    #121
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    Rape by definition has to have some power by the perpetrator over the victim which I would imagine also plays some (if not all ) part in the act .


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