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Cameron to curb welfare entitlements for migrants - Should Ireland follow suit?

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    #62
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    Do they not need cash for essentials like clothing, general grooming, kids accessories and what not?They also receive three meals, snacks,free medical care and education for their kids.

    A lot of Irish people would love to have 20 euro left over each week

    Would a lot of Irish families like to live in two rooms of a hostel. While waiting years for a decision. No right to work, no right to live where they want, and waiting for that letter that says your being deported.

    Asylum applications have fallen from a peak of 12,500 a year to under 1000 and still falling. While many where allowed to remain after having a Irish Citizen child, that is no longer possible unless one of the parents is legal for at least 3 years in the country.


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    #63
    mattjack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,389 ✭✭✭mattjack


    Gongoozler wrote: »
    That's what I mean by 'show your plan is to stay here and build a life here'. That's what the habitual residence test is.

    There's quite a bit more to it than that.From time to time I work with people looking to access welfare etc in Ireland and satisfying the HRC is the one element that gives huge amounts of people both Irish and from abroad trouble.

    You have to prove a link to Ireland and HRC actually has no exact definition or conditions to satisfy.

    It can be incredibly difficult to satisfy.


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    #64
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    Would a lot of Irish families like to live in two rooms of a hostel. While waiting years for a decision. No right to work, no right to live where they want, and waiting for that letter that says your being deported.

    Asylum applications have fallen from a peak of 12,500 a year to under 1000 and still falling. While many where allowed to remain after having a Irish Citizen child, that is no longer possible unless one of the parents is legal for at least 3 years in the country.

    Most get their applications refused pretty sharpish. The problem is they appeal the decision again and again in an effort to exhaust the system.

    Limit them to just the one appeal.


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    #65
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    Asylum seekers receive no unemployment. When you are a asylum seeker you get put up in a hostel and 3 meals a day plus the large amount of €19.00 a week. If you are one of the very few declared a refugee then you have the same rights as an Irish citizen, which does include the same requirement to be seeking work.
    Ok than change asylum seekers to refugee in my original post in the thread. It also seems to me that the point i was making has went miles over the heads of certain posters on here so i will explain it in more simple terms. In my view i think it is a disgrace and a sad state of affairs that an Irish man who has worked all his life and now needs a state hand out for the first time in his life has to prove he is looking for work and yet you get people from around the world come to Ireland and get money no matter how small the amount without paying tax PRSI or any of the other social and economic levies that a regular Irish citizen has to pay form the age of eighteen upwards.


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    #66
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    While waiting years for a decision

    Or dragging out the process.

    Pamela Izevbekhai kept lawyers busy for years


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    #67
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    Ok than change asylum seekers to refugee in my original post in the thread. It also seems to me that the point i was making has went miles over the heads of certain posters on here so i will explain it in more simple terms. In my view i think it is a disgrace and a sad state of affairs that an Irish man who has worked all his life and now needs a state hand out for the first time in his life has to prove he is looking for work and yet you get people from around the world come to Ireland and get money no matter how small the amount without paying tax PRSI or any of the other social and economic levies that a regular Irish citizen has to pay form the age of eighteen upwards.

    The only person entitled to such payments is a recognised refugee. We signed up to a number of international treaties and one of the rights a recognised refugee has is to be treated the same as a citizen. The total number of recognised refugees is very small and would not amount to more than a few thousand of which a number would of course be working. The refugee has no extra rights above a citizen just the same.


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    #68
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2297776/SATURDAY-ESSAY-Why-Left-epic-mistake-immigration.html


    Interesting piece on the topic.


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    #69
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    Quite a considerable amount. There are 70 different nationalities on the fingal county council housing list alone.

    We can no longer afford to be overtly generous. Once the UK clamps down on this, where do you think the welfare tourists will look to next?

    More nonsense, either give me some actual figures on how much this costs the state of stop making things up.

    If we dropped the dole by $20 would we save more then cutting off migrants?


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    #70
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Or dragging out the process.

    Pamela Izevbekhai kept lawyers busy for years

    Yes and they made no money as she lost all her cases, she had 3 different teams of lawyers, because it turned out she was a liar, and guess what she was deported.


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    #71
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    Yes and they made no money as she lost all her cases, she had 3 different teams of lawyers, because it turned out she was a liar, and guess what she was deported.
    How much did she cost the state in the end?? It is hard to look at any case now and not think are they trying to pull a Pammy.


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    #72
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    5 teams of lawyers

    And her solicitor got deported too after his pack of lies was rejected. :pac:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056338962

    Doesn't matter if her own teams never got paid, she still caused the waste of huge sums of money
    The State has been left with a legal bill of €370,000 for defending the case in the High Court, Supreme Court and the European Court of Human Rights.
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/1m-legal-bill-after-pamela-and-girls-finally-deported-26753400.html

    370,000, well you could build a few council houses for that money


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    #73
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    RasTa wrote: »
    More nonsense, either give me some actual figures on how much this costs the state of stop making things up.

    If we dropped the dole by $20 would we save more then cutting off migrants?

    What am I making up?

    Seeing as 20 percent of those on the dole are migrants and one in three of those on the housing list are migrants, I think its fair to say that cutting them off would save the state much more money than dropping the dole by 20 euro.


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    #74
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    What am I making up?

    Seeing as 20 percent of those on the dole are migrants, one in three of those on the housing list are migrants, I think its fair to say cutting them off would safe the state much more than dropping the dole by 20 euro.

    Not if u drop it by $20 for the rest of the 80% and cut it it off for everybody who is on it over 5 years.

    That's what I would do anyway. You also forgot to compare how much the difference in the dole in the UK v Ireland.

    Basically cut of the migrants wouldn't do much, it's the whole welfare system that needs to be changed


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    #75
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I know someone who was in Canada under a year on a WHV and started claiming unemployment benefits. So there's the Canada "example" out the window. :pac:


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    #76
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I know someone who was in Canada under a year on a WHV and started claiming unemployment benefits. So there's the Canada "example" out the window. :pac:

    And his chances of extending his stay gone out the window too.


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    And his chances of extending his stay gone out the window too.

    Odd, he just got residency another couple of years later. I should tell him that you said otherwise.


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    #78
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    What am I making up?

    Seeing as 20 percent of those on the dole are migrants and one in three of those on the housing list are migrants, I think its fair to say that cutting them off would save the state much more money than dropping the dole by 20 euro.

    What % of people who are working are migrants. What % of people living in this country working or claiming are migrants. A few facts from memory but look up CSO.

    Roughly 700,000 people living in Ireland are not from here. Sounds a large number but lets look closer, approx 200,000 are from the UK including NI, approx 300,000 are from the EU, so 500,000 have an automatic right to be here. Then we have the remaining 200,000 about 150,000 have some legal right to be here that is stamp 2 student visa, stamp 4 or work permit holders, or have been here long enough to become LTR or Citizens. At best guess about 50,000 are either seeking asylum or are illegal.

    For every dodgy case there are many more that are good for this country.


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    #79
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Odd, he just got residency another couple of years later. I should tell him that you said otherwise.

    To be blunt, I dont really care nor believe you.


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    #80
    mattjack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,389 ✭✭✭mattjack


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    Most get their applications refused pretty sharpish. The problem is they appeal the decision again and again in an effort to exhaust the system.

    Limit them to just the one appeal.

    How do you know ?
    I think our refugee act might have something to do with the Geneva convention , so just saying you are limited to a single appeal might be of interest to the UN maybe .


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    #81
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    yabadabado wrote: »
    incorrect

    Correct


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    #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    To be blunt, I dont really care nor believe you.

    What if you log into your old account?


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    #83
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    What % of people who are working are migrants. What % of people living in this country working or claiming are migrants. A few facts from memory but look up CSO.

    Roughly 700,000 people living in Ireland are not from here. Sounds a large number but lets look closer, approx 200,000 are from the UK including NI, approx 300,000 are from the EU, so 500,000 have an automatic right to be here. Then we have the remaining 200,000 about 150,000 have some legal right to be here that is stamp 2 student visa, stamp 4 or work permit holders, or have been here long enough to become LTR or Citizens. At best guess about 50,000 are either seeking asylum or are illegal.

    For every dodgy case there are many more that are good for this country.

    The figures are in the opening piece. This thread isnt about workers - quite the opposite. Its about those on the dole. But immigrants, as per the cso's figures, are more heavily reliant on social welfare when compared to Irish nationals. The unemployment rate for eastern europeans ranges from 20 - 25 percent. Some of our recent arrivals from african nations have a near unemployment rate of 40 percent. Only those from the nordic countries and some older EU countries, have a lower unemployment rate than Irish nationals.


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    #84
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    no we should not if anything we should scrap the direct provision system that expects asylum seekers to live on 19euro a week


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    #85
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I know someone who was in Canada under a year on a WHV and started claiming unemployment benefits. So there's the Canada "example" out the window. :pac:

    I'm in Canada atm(about to get kicked out) but that's nonsense unless he got EI?


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    Only those from the nordic countries and some older EU countries, have a lower unemployment rate than Irish nationals.

    So we should kick out the Irish and keep the French and Germans?


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    #87
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    The figures are in the opening piece. This thread isnt about workers - quite the opposite. Its about those on the dole. But immigrants, as per the cso's figures, are more heavily reliant on social welfare when compared to Irish nationals. The unemployment rate for eastern europeans ranges from 20 - 25 percent. Some of our recent arrivals from african nations have a near unemployment rate of 40 percent. Only those from the nordic countries and some older EU countries, have a lower unemployment rate than Irish nationals.

    Jesus christ whats 40% of 10k compared to 14.6% of 2m


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    #88
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    no we should not if anything we should scrap the direct provision system that expects asylum seekers to live on 19euro a week

    Will you put them up and financially support them?


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    #89
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    There is zero discussion in Ireland about this issue.
    Remember back in 2003-2004, our esteemed elected representatives told us that only a few hundred people would come to this wet rock in the Atlantic when the EU expanded to include ten new members?
    Turns out there were wrong by a few hundred thousand.


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    #90
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RasTa wrote: »
    I'm in Canada atm(about to get kicked out) but that's nonsense unless he got EI?

    He got sponsored on a job that is seasonal-ish pretty quickly and when not working got 2/3 of his pay in unemployment assistance or whatever it's called there. Now he's just waiting til residency is confirmed and he can come home for a holiday.


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    #91
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    The figures are in the opening piece. This thread isnt about workers - quite the opposite. Its about those on the dole. But immigrants, as per the cso's figures, are more heavily reliant on social welfare when compared to Irish nationals. The unemployment rate for eastern europeans ranges from 20 - 25 percent. Some of our recent arrivals from african nations have a near unemployment rate of 40 percent. Only those from the nordic countries and some older EU countries, have a lower unemployment rate than Irish nationals.

    But in looking at any cost base one must look at the income. If say a certain ethnic group has 24% unemployment, well that means there is 76% employment. Paying USC, PRSI and tax. To claim social welfare as has been pointed out the person must satisfy the HR rule. Or be a recognised refugee. Many people go on to the housing lists for varied reasons. Short term unemployment needing SWA. Many employed people Irish and non irish are on housing lists.

    If one is going to say we should not do x then at least show the costs of X, if we say the costs of providing social welfare to non irish is X we need to look at the tax take from non irish, because if we say only irish born citizens get welfare then don't be surprised if the likes of Google and Favebook PayPal etc. all head across the water because it will be near impossible for them to attract non irish workers.


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