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Average Welfare Payments for Religious Ceremonies Halved 2012

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245

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    #32
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,703 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Poll is sexist.

    Boys get new clothes too.


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    #33
    Rented Mule
    Registered Users Posts: 5,153 ✭✭✭Rented Mule


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Also, €1.5million, I know the country is not in great shape, but I doubt that €1.5 is what will make or break us. We waste larger sums of money on far more ridiculous things that that.


    A million here, and a million there and pretty soon you're talking real money.

    I'd say that $1.5 million could be put to far better use than communion gowns.


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    #34
    DesperateDan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭DesperateDan


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    But he is not saying it as a tax payer, he says it as an atheist. Why else would he start he post with the statement of his religious beliefs or lack there of?

    You're right I should have said both, post corrected :D


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    #35
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    I'm sure you'll straighten them out when they get older.

    Why wait? When my little relatives talk to me about this and God, I say sure, I believe in him, I just don't think he is that important.


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    #36
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    My Rc school isnt forcing my child or the three others in his class who are not catholic to do anything and i doubt many schools do. Its down to the parents I would say.

    In rural Ireland it is damn well expected, if you do not have a baptism, communion and confirmation, you are pretty much the talk of the area. No joke. I remember saying I wasn't too bothered if my son was baptised or not, the looks you get are scandalous.


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    #37
    DesperateDan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭DesperateDan


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    This pops up far too often, seriously overdone!

    Closest thread in after hours about this topic is 4 years old I think, checked because I figured someone would've posted about it recently


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    #38
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    These payments are at the CWO's discretion. If the CWO thinks the family need the the cash I can't see how it is anybody elses business. We may pay taxes, that does not allow us to dictate what payments will or will not be allowed.


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    #39
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Rented Mule wrote: »
    A million here, and a million there and pretty soon you're talking real money.

    I'd say that $1.5 million could be put to far better use than communion gowns.

    I agree, and yes, it does add up and there are other areas I would love to see it go, I just find it fascinating that this particular thing causes such outrage in some people, but other area's where far greater sums of money are wasted seem to not even get a boards thread, when this gets about 5-10 a year. Be it on it's own, or an obligatory mention in another welfare thread.


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    #40
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Dammit - I was hoping for a few hundred euro for my brit malah.


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    #41
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,383 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    Odysseus wrote: »
    These payments are at the CWO's discretion. If the CWO thinks the family need the the cash I can't see how it is anybody elses business. We may pay taxes, that does not allow us to dictate what payments will or will not be allowed.

    You answered yourself there.


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    #42
    Rented Mule
    Registered Users Posts: 5,153 ✭✭✭Rented Mule


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    I agree, and yes, it does add up and there are other areas I would love to see it go, I just find it fascinating that this particular thing causes such outrage in some people, but other area's where far greater sums of money are wasted seem to not even get a boards thread, when this gets about 5-10 a year.

    We're actually on the same page here. When you're dealing with austerity, these should be some of the first things that are scrapped (as well as any other time/money wasting ventures).


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    #43
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    AdamD wrote: »
    You answered yourself there.

    But this is a society, there is money going to things we all agree with and don't agree with with the tax collected.

    An example being Healthcare, though within both there are things we do not agree with, overpaid consultants, etc. But basic maternity care, cervical and prostate checks, etc. we do.


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    #44
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    In rural Ireland it is damn well expected, if you do not have a baptism, communion and confirmation, you are pretty much the talk of the area. No joke. I remember saying I wasn't too bothered if my son was baptised or not, the looks you get are scandalous.
    Im 42. Where I grew up in rural Ireland this was the case. I now live in another part of rural Ireland and my kid goes to a moderate/large rural school and we have had absolutey zero reaction to our non catholic unbaptised child.
    Where do you live can i ask. It sounds like 1970's Ireland!


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    #45
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Rented Mule wrote: »
    We're actually on the same page here. When you're dealing with austerity, these should be some of the first things that are scrapped (as well as any other time/money wasting ventures).

    Completely agree, Carers getting cuts though they save the HSE a fortune - wrong. Yet other things exist like getting a subsidy for more than one buggy for ONE child exists. I don't begrudge people some help, but some grants/assistance funds are just mind boggling!


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    #46
    Truncheon Rouge
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 388 ✭✭Truncheon Rouge


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Is there not something very weird about a ceremony in which we dress up little girls as little brides?

    I remember learning about transubstantiation and the body of Christ. I though it was complete rubbish and more evidence of adults being pretty damned stupid.

    Of course at the time I didnt know about cannibalism so I couldn't really provide a decent argument on the matter.

    Weird or not, right or wrong is mostly irrelevant unless debating Christianity, its faults and its place in society, for which we have ample threads.

    Facts are you isolate kids from their peers, give them low self esteem and we all likely pay later on up the road. If the ceremony wasn't so intrinsic in Irish society that would be a different issue, but its not likely to go away any time soon, they will experience it as will 90% of their peers.

    If they want to standardize it with some kind of school robe or whatever or have some kind of rent a dress scheme then thats great, sounds good. Bring in ways of reducing the cost by all means, asap.

    But from a financial and social well being point of view if you want to save money and have a happier society you have to make sure kids dont get a bad self concept of who they are. It'll cost more in the long term.


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    #47
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    AdamD wrote: »
    You answered yourself there.

    I don't think the fact that I pay taxes gives me any special position in saying how they are spent.

    We employ people to do that, and I have no special say in how those people do their jobs.

    We allow for "emergency" or "payments at the CWOs discretion" , how that money is spent is down to the CWO not me. The discretion here belongs to the CWO not me as a tax payer.


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    #48
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Don't want to freak anyone out but on the radio yesterday they said the CWO handed out over 35 million last year so slightly more than 1.5 million ...
    I reckon the CWO should loan the money to people,(either themselves or through credit union) paying back a 5 or 10 a week out of their dole ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #49
    admiralofthefleet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,515 ✭✭✭✭admiralofthefleet


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    In rural Ireland it is damn well expected, if you do not have a baptism, communion and confirmation, you are pretty much the talk of the area. No joke. I remember saying I wasn't too bothered if my son was baptised or not, the looks you get are scandalous.

    me and my wife get the same in arklow when we mention our son isnt christened because he isnt a catholic. parts of rural ireland are still living in the 1950's


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    #50
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Im 42. Where I grew up in rural Ireland this was the case. I now live in another part of rural Ireland and my kid goes to a moderate/large rural school and we have had absolute;y zero reaction to our no catholic unbaptised child.
    Where do you live can i ask. It sounds like 1970's Ireland!

    I now live in "suburban" Dublin so I don't see it here, also, my son does not start primary until September so it makes no difference regardless, but I doubt it matters too much. But originally I was in a small town in the West coast of Clare so it was very older population which strong religious beliefs.


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    #51
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Im 42. Where I grew up in rural Ireland this was the case. I now live in another part of rural Ireland and my kid goes to a moderate/large rural school and we have had absolute;y zero reaction to our no catholic unbaptised child.
    Where do you live can i ask. It sounds like 1970's Ireland!

    I agree with wolfpawnat. Even in the smaller rural schools there isn't a space for children who do not follow the Catholic ethos to be exempt from the lessons of the doctrine. There is no where for them to go and do something else, not to mention the funny looks and bits of teasing they get from other kids for being different.

    It is not just a question of them learning hippy dippy versions of Catholicism with the flowers and the trees and the baby Jesus, but of teachers imo crossing a line and telling kids what they can and can't eat for lent. Seriously, who the hell do they think they are telling kids what they can and can't eat?


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    #52
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Truncheon Rouge wrote: »
    Weird or not, right or wrong is mostly irrelevant unless debating Christianity, its faults and its place in society, for which we have ample threads.

    Facts are you isolate kids from their peers, give them low self esteem and we all likely pay later on up the road. If the ceremony wasn't so intrinsic in Irish society that would be a different issue, but its not likely to go away any time soon, they will experience it as will 90% of their peers.

    If they want to standardize it with some kind of school robe or whatever or have some kind of rent a dress scheme then thats great, sounds good. Bring in ways of reducing the cost by all means, asap.

    But from a financial and social well being point of view if you want to save money and have a happier society you have to make sure kids dont get a bad self concept of who they are. It'll cost more in the long term.

    I agree, which is why it should be taken out of schools or they should have to do it in their uniforms.


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    #53
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,709 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    They shouldnt be making them in those stupid dresses anyway. For a lot of the confirmations now kids either wear their uniform or a robe over their clothes. I don't see why they can't do that for the communion and not have them in those disgusting mini wedding dresses anyway. I would lay the blame more at the schools then the parents to be honest.


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    #54
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    I agree with wolfpawnat. Even in the smaller rural schools there isn't a space for children who do not follow the Catholic ethos to be exempt from the lessons of the doctrine. There is no where for them to go and do something else, not to mention the funny looks and bits of teasing they get from other kids for being different.

    It is not just a question of them learning hippy dippy versions of Catholicism with the flowers and the trees and the baby Jesus, but of teachers imo crossing a line and telling kids what they can and can't eat for lent. Seriously, who the hell do they think they are telling kids what they can and can't eat?
    All I can say is I live in a very traditional part of the country, rural and have had zero negative comments. Infact quite a few non catholics have come out of the woodwork since mine started. Three in my kids class and Im quietly confident they will not be turning into shuffling mumbling social outcasts in the future.


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    #55
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Don't want to freak anyone out but on the radio yesterday they said the CWO handed out over 35 million last year so slightly more than 1.5 million ...
    I reckon the CWO should loan the money to people,(either themselves or through credit union) paying back a 5 or 10 a week out of their dole ,

    That is extenuating circumstances overall, not just religious ceremonies. That is everything from emergency medical treatment, because here's a shocker, not everyone on JSA actually has a medical card, so that is 100e A&E charge, to ridiculous things as I stated, like 3 buggies for one child (I have seen it with my own eyes, it is an disgrace)


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    #56
    Truncheon Rouge
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 388 ✭✭Truncheon Rouge


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    I agree, which is why it should be taken out of schools or they should have to do it in their uniforms.

    Good luck with that.

    Uniforms would be pretty pointless, just another day in school.
    Some cheap white standardized ceremonial robes rented from a local shop on a school contract each year would be an idea. Parents fork out 20 for the days rental.
    Parents can buy them after if they want to keep them for memory.


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    #57
    admiralofthefleet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,515 ✭✭✭✭admiralofthefleet


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    All I can say is I live in a very traditional part of the country, rural and have had zero negative comments. Infact quite a few non catholics have come out of the woodwork since mine started. Three in my kids class and Im quietly confident they will not be turning into shuffling mumbling social outcasts in the future.

    is there an educate together where you are?


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    #58
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    admiralofthefleet wrote: »
    is there an educate together where you are?
    No. And to be honest unless it was really good I wouldnt use it. As this is my local school my kid went there with the same kids he went to creche with. He goes on the bus with the neighbours kids. He plays football with the local parish team, he does speech and drama with his neighbours and class mates etc etc etc. i really dont think taht he and a few friends not making their holy communion etc on one day along with two others in his class has scarred him for life. The day in the zoo seemed to be much preferable:P


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    #59
    admiralofthefleet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,515 ✭✭✭✭admiralofthefleet


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    No. And to be honest unless it was really good I wouldnt use it. As this is my local school my kid went there with the same kids he went to creche with. He goes on the bus with the neighbours kids. He plays football with the local parish team, he does speech and drama with his neighbours and class mates etc etc etc. i really dont think taht he and a few friends not making their holy communion etc on one day along with two others in his class has scarred him for life. The day in the zoo seemed to be much preferable:P

    yeah i have the same plan for my son, if (in the highly unlikely event) he ends up going to a catholic school, the teachers will be strictly instructed not to include him in any of the catholic teaching/activities. on the days when the other children do catholic stuff he will have a day at the zoo or something to that effect


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    #60
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    admiralofthefleet wrote: »
    yeah i have the same plan for my son, if (in the highly unlikely event) he ends up going to a catholic school, the teachers will be strictly instructed not to include him in any of the catholic teaching/activities. on the days when the other children do catholic stuff he will have a day at the zoo or something to that effect
    To be honest the 'religion' they are taught up to second class is utterly harmless and aged 8 he had enough cop on for us to explain that we dont believe in what is being taught to him and that he does not have to go along with it but to jts be quiet and respectful. We explained it pretty well i think about religions and how 'some ' people feel about them. It really isnt an issue.
    Infact its quite rewarding to ask a kid what they learned in religion today and to get a wry smile and a shrug and 'ah you know..god stuff!!!! But not Thor. Hes my favourite dad'


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    #61
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    To be honest the 'religion' they are taught up to second class is utterly harmless

    Personally I think "religion" in school should teach exactly that. Each of the world religions, their beliefs and their customs, not Catholicism only and the tiniest skim over the others. I remember we had a girl in our class for a year that was Jewish. All we knew was that her religion was different, that was it. She was not allowed educate us, nor were we allowed to ask. Religion, if it was taught as a well rounded subject would be an interesting class.


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