Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

PTH2009 · 30-07-2012 2:24pm

Yesterdays defeat marks the end of the glory days. The game was there to wi but

In 2013 we will be without Tony Browne, John Mullane and Possibly Seamus Prendergast and Eoin Kelly. Hopefully we dont the way of the likes of Offaly and Wexford and get knocked out in the first rounds. A run in the Quilfers could benefit Waterford in 2013.

A big thanks has too go to both Tony and John. They were two of our best players and we will all miss Johns Passion on the field and Tonys amazing skill. They are 2 players who deserved a all ireland medeal

deisedude · 30-07-2012 2:26pm

PTH2009 wrote: »

Yesterdays defeat marks the end of the glory days. The game was there to wi but

In 2013 we will be without Tony Browne, John Mullane and Possibly Seamus Prendergast and Eoin Kelly. Hopefully we dont the way of the likes of Offaly and Wexford and get knocked out in the first rounds. A run in the Quilfers could benefit Waterford in 2013.

A big thanks has too go to both Tony and John. They were two of our best players and we will all miss Johns Passion on the field and Tonys amazing skill. They are 2 players who deserved a all ireland medeal

You should wait for players to come to a decision before you retire them.

lovelypoint · 30-07-2012 2:33pm

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

I don't give a sh!t about how many individual players would make it into other teams. We have too many individuals. Great teamwork makes up for weaker players and brings them on.
Look at our play from puck outs. SOKs has great puck outs (although he sent far too many down the right in the 2nd half when we were winning none of them) and Prender is a good ball winner but what happens when he catches it? Nothing. Nobody running from midfield, nobody running from the wing for him to lay the ball off to. Molumphy is tireless at breaking ball and dropping deep but he isnt a creator so that leaves Maurice or the 2 Mahonys who should be helping out but they stand around waiting for the ball too much.
And our entire forward line is guilty of the same thing. In most occasions nobody runs off whoever has the ball. They stay stationary and our entire attack has to slow down. Of course this isnt helped by people not looking up and passing whenever someone does find space. I don't know is it because theyre not even expecting anyone to go with them or they just want the glory (probably both)

Agree with all the above, and think it all boils down to one thing, and something we would have benefitted greatly from since '08 - a dedicated fowards coach. Eamonn O'Shea worked the oracle with Tipp, and someone to work with our forwards on their decision making, movement, awareness and teamwork is likewise needed in Waterford for us to make valuable progress. I hope this is something the management look at strongly when it comes to the coming year.

DeiseX · 30-07-2012 2:50pm

alllcounty wrote: »

Waterford came up short again. Same problem arose which caused the Deise of ultimately failing again for another year and that is not having enough strength and depth in the panel, to be able to bring on subs that don’t weaken the team and can get the team over the line. We see it in other successful counties like Kilkenny and Tipperary if they are struggling with 15 minutes to go they can bring in players that are just as good as the starting 15. So why does Waterford not have that depth in the panel to win an all Ireland.
When you look at the adult club structures in Waterford and the clubs represented on the panel it is not hard to see why Waterford will never win an all Ireland. Less than 10% of the panel come from non senior clubs. From a panel of 34 players there are just 3 players namely Seamus Prendergast, Brick Walsh and Darragh Fives who play their club hurling on intermediate club teams in Waterford. That is a shocking statistic. It is the worst ratio of any top hurling county in Ireland. When you look at other successful hurling counties like Kilkenny they are able to call upon players from intermediate and junior clubs to strengthen the depth of their county team. They don’t weaken the county panel as they are playing club hurling at a high standard that involves leagues and championships involving clubs from all over the county. But in Waterford the reality is we don’t have this.
The standard of intermediate and junior club hurling in Waterford is at rock bottom and that is why there are no players coming from intermediate or junior clubs to strengthen the county panel and giving it the capability of winning an all Ireland. The west versus east divide has prevented the next 12 best clubs in Waterford from playing in a competitive structure and the same with the 3rd best 12 clubs.
Clare is one county who realised the need for change in their adult club structures a number of years ago and so they decided to bring in a senior B league and championship. The players playing for these senior B clubs are now playing at a higher standard and are supplying a far better quality of player to the county teams than Waterford is capable of doing. This has been suggested by some why the clare under 21’s continues to develop further when they leave minor as they are now playing in a competitive club structure from senior to junior.
However the change in adult club structures does not look like changing any time soon where there is so much resistance from senior clubs in Waterford to allowing intermediate and junior clubs increase the standard and quality of their club hurling by playing in all county structures. People like Pat Grant of Fourmilewater and Eddie Cunningham of Tallow are doing enormous damage to Waterford developing a senior county team with strength and depth in the panel that also includes players from non senior clubs that are playing club hurling at a high level and don’t weaken the county team if and when called upon. If senior hurling clubs in Waterford want the county to make the breakthrough then that means changing the adult structures for non senior clubs in the county so that a panel can be developed in future years that does have a depth in the panel consisting of players from senior and non senior clubs.
One chink of light to allowing this to be discussed in a reasoned manner in the county was recommendations made in the Waterford gaa strategic plan which was due to be released in early march of this year. This has now not being released due to threats from some senior club delegates. For as long as Waterford allow Pat Grant and Eddie Cunningham and other senior club delegates dictate the structure for non senior clubs then Waterford will not have a depth to its panel like kilkenny are capable of having and waterford will not be making any breakthrough.

+1000

yomtea98 · 30-07-2012 4:04pm

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Molumphy got motm - deserved, he's a fine player.

Fine player but not motm,not even Waterfords best player.

Orizio · 30-07-2012 4:42pm

yomtea98 wrote: »

Fine player but not motm,not even Waterfords best player.

He wasn't even in their top three of players yesterday.

Fireball07 · 30-07-2012 4:46pm

Molumphy was good, but Mullane and Moran were better.

deisebhoy17 · 30-07-2012 6:11pm

alllcounty wrote: »

Waterford came up short again. Same problem arose which caused the Deise of ultimately failing again for another year and that is not having enough strength and depth in the panel, to be able to bring on subs that don’t weaken the team and can get the team over the line. We see it in other successful counties like Kilkenny and Tipperary if they are struggling with 15 minutes to go they can bring in players that are just as good as the starting 15. So why does Waterford not have that depth in the panel to win an all Ireland.
When you look at the adult club structures in Waterford and the clubs represented on the panel it is not hard to see why Waterford will never win an all Ireland. Less than 10% of the panel come from non senior clubs. From a panel of 34 players there are just 3 players namely Seamus Prendergast, Brick Walsh and Darragh Fives who play their club hurling on intermediate club teams in Waterford. That is a shocking statistic. It is the worst ratio of any top hurling county in Ireland. When you look at other successful hurling counties like Kilkenny they are able to call upon players from intermediate and junior clubs to strengthen the depth of their county team. They don’t weaken the county panel as they are playing club hurling at a high standard that involves leagues and championships involving clubs from all over the county. But in Waterford the reality is we don’t have this.
The standard of intermediate and junior club hurling in Waterford is at rock bottom and that is why there are no players coming from intermediate or junior clubs to strengthen the county panel and giving it the capability of winning an all Ireland. The west versus east divide has prevented the next 12 best clubs in Waterford from playing in a competitive structure and the same with the 3rd best 12 clubs.
Clare is one county who realised the need for change in their adult club structures a number of years ago and so they decided to bring in a senior B league and championship. The players playing for these senior B clubs are now playing at a higher standard and are supplying a far better quality of player to the county teams than Waterford is capable of doing. This has been suggested by some why the clare under 21’s continues to develop further when they leave minor as they are now playing in a competitive club structure from senior to junior.
However the change in adult club structures does not look like changing any time soon where there is so much resistance from senior clubs in Waterford to allowing intermediate and junior clubs increase the standard and quality of their club hurling by playing in all county structures. People like Pat Grant of Fourmilewater and Eddie Cunningham of Tallow are doing enormous damage to Waterford developing a senior county team with strength and depth in the panel that also includes players from non senior clubs that are playing club hurling at a high level and don’t weaken the county team if and when called upon. If senior hurling clubs in Waterford want the county to make the breakthrough then that means changing the adult structures for non senior clubs in the county so that a panel can be developed in future years that does have a depth in the panel consisting of players from senior and non senior clubs.
One chink of light to allowing this to be discussed in a reasoned manner in the county was recommendations made in the Waterford gaa strategic plan which was due to be released in early march of this year. This has now not being released due to threats from some senior club delegates. For as long as Waterford allow Pat Grant and Eddie Cunningham and other senior club delegates dictate the structure for non senior clubs then Waterford will not have a depth to its panel like kilkenny are capable of having and waterford will not be making any breakthrough.

well why dont you do something about it? your obviously very passionate about this even judging by your username, and almost every message you post here relates to this topic so why not start a campaign? youve publicly named who you see are the serial perpetrators so maybe its time you went public yourself and actually took these fellahs on. I can guarantee you will solve nothing on this message board by just repeating yourself over and over again which is what youve been doing for quite some time

tonc76 · 30-07-2012 6:20pm

lovelypoint wrote: »

Agree with all the above, and think it all boils down to one thing, and something we would have benefitted greatly from since '08 - a dedicated fowards coach. Eamonn O'Shea worked the oracle with Tipp, and someone to work with our forwards on their decision making, movement, awareness and teamwork is likewise needed in Waterford for us to make valuable progress. I hope this is something the management look at strongly when it comes to the coming year.

Was Ken not brought in as a forwards coach earlier this year?

deisedub · 30-07-2012 8:11pm

Probables;
1,Laurence Power abbeyside
2,Mark Shanahan Sacred Heart
3, Eddie Hayden Ballygunner
4, David Prendergast Lismore
5,Craig Brown Sacred Heart
6, Shane Ryan De La Salle
7, Shane Murray Cappaquinn
8, Edmond O'Halloran Clashmore
9, M.J Sutton Ferrybank
10, Adam Crawford Cois Bhride
11, Conor Gleeson Four Mile Water
12, Shane Benntt Lismore
13, John Ahearn Ferrybank
14, Sean Daly Abbeyside
15, Jack Mullaney Stradbally
a good few lads missing cause of Hols, injurys etc but overall a good spread across the county

watermark · 30-07-2012 8:36pm

Fireball07 wrote: »

Molumphy was good, but Mullane and Moran were better.

dont care! i had him at 20/1 to be MOTM

h'on mulomphy!

lovelypoint · 30-07-2012 9:18pm

tonc76 wrote: »

Was Ken not brought in as a forwards coach earlier this year?

Well, Ken joined the panel as a selector, is an ex-forward and seems to have a key input into the coaching side. The exact breakdown of duties between Michael Ryan, Ken and Seán Cullinane, I would be curious about, should anywhere closer to the panel be able to shed some light on it. The point remains though that specialist focus on our forwards is badly needed, as although there has been some improvement this year, our decision making, awareness, movement and teamwork remains a target rich environment for improvement.

deisebhoy17 · 30-07-2012 9:49pm

deisedub wrote: »

Probables;
1,Laurence Power abbeyside
2,Mark Shanahan Sacred Heart
3, Eddie Hayden Ballygunner
4, David Prendergast Lismore
5,Craig Brown Sacred Heart
6, Shane Ryan De La Salle
7, Shane Murray Cappaquinn
8, Edmond O'Halloran Clashmore
9, M.J Sutton Ferrybank
10, Adam Crawford Cois Bhride
11, Conor Gleeson Four Mile Water
12, Shane Benntt Lismore
13, John Ahearn Ferrybank
14, Sean Daly Abbeyside
15, Jack Mullaney Stradbally
a good few lads missing cause of Hols, injurys etc but overall a good spread across the county

didnt this group win the tony forristal at u14? light at the end of the tunnell one hopes

deiseach · 30-07-2012 9:50pm

Match report here

Mountainlad · 30-07-2012 10:02pm

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

didnt this group win the tony forristal at u14? light at the end of the tunnell one hopes

They did indeed. I hope the cutback in resources available to them doesn't afflict them too badly.

Cake Man · 31-07-2012 12:33am

deisedub wrote: »

Probables;
1,Laurence Power abbeyside
2,Mark Shanahan Sacred Heart
3, Eddie Hayden Ballygunner
4, David Prendergast Lismore
5,Craig Brown Sacred Heart
6, Shane Ryan De La Salle
7, Shane Murray Cappaquinn
8, Edmond O'Halloran Clashmore
9, M.J Sutton Ferrybank
10, Adam Crawford Cois Bhride
11, Conor Gleeson Four Mile Water
12, Shane Benntt Lismore
13, John Ahearn Ferrybank
14, Sean Daly Abbeyside
15, Jack Mullaney Stradbally
a good few lads missing cause of Hols, injurys etc but overall a good spread across the county

Would recognise nearly all those players from the TF winning team of two years ago but I notice Patrick Curran of Dungarvan is missing. I presume he's one that's either injured or on holidays, he's a serious prospect. Practically won us the TF that year and is playing minor for club and doing very well. Also on the Harty winning team this year. Will surely be county minor next year I'd imagine.

Is this the team (or at least the bones of it) that will represent Waterford in the Arrabawn in a few weeks?

Orizio · 31-07-2012 12:49am

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Too many average players on team to compete at this level. Also physically not a match for top teams. How many of the current players would make the Tipp or Kilkenny team? Brick, Mullane, Moran... That's about it.

O'Keeffe, Noel Connors, Molumphy...

redlead · 31-07-2012 9:40am

Orizio wrote: »

O'Keeffe, Noel Connors, Molumphy...

As good as O'Keefe is, there is no way he would start ahead of Herrity or Cummins.

mickmcl09 · 31-07-2012 9:54am

I rate O'Keeffe very highly and definitely ahead of Herity and should he improve, he's possibly a future All-Star. He's alot of games to go before being put in Cummins league but he's definitely going in the right direction.

Great shot stopper. His puckouts and especially his distribution in open play was probably the best of the Keepers out there in 2012. Should be a All-Star nomination this year and he could get it as well.

Moran should get one, with O'Keeffe having a great chance and Mullane will get a nomination at least. It kind of depends on what performances are thrown up in the semi's and the final though. Winning an All-Star is heavily weighted on those games.

redlead · 31-07-2012 9:59am

mickmcl09 wrote: »

I rate O'Keeffe very highly and definitely ahead of Herity and should he improve, he's possibly a future All-Star. He's alot of games to go before being put in Cummins league but he's definitely going in the right direction.

Great shot stopper. His puckouts and especially his distribution in open play was probably the best of the Keepers out there in 2012. Should be a All-Star nomination this year and he could get it as well.

Don't get me wrong. I rate O'Keefe very highly but in my opinion Herrity and Maguire are the two best all round keepers in the country at present. O'Keefe is probably a better shot stopper than Cummins is now but Cummins is better under a high ball which is crucial. I think the all star nominations should be O'Keefe, Cummins and Herrity. Maguire will not be nominated this year.

I would rather see Liam Watson get an all star this year than any Waterford player. The guy sticks with his county regardless of never having a hope of winning anything and was absolutely phenomenal in the club AI which is all he has to prove himself in.

mickmcl09 · 31-07-2012 10:23am

Watson has been the hurler of the year so far. I hope he's not forgotten for an All-Star.
Some one might correct me, but O'Keeffe only had 1 real howler, the one where he went up half sideways for high ball against Tipp, there might be one other one. Dealt with high ball very well last Sunday.

Any of the 4 Keepers left could win the All-Star if they pull a few great saves over the course of the next 2 games (winning an All-Ireland will be no. 1 priority) so it's a bit early to be discussing All-Star keepers.
O'Keeffe is now at the edge of the top table of Keepers and with little improvements he should be a strong candidate on any given year. A keeper is only as good as the defenders in front of him and the saves he makes as the shots come at him. The best keeper doesnt necessarily always win an All-Star.

hurler on de ditch · 31-07-2012 10:51am

wex_lad wrote: »

On the way home from Thurles we were discussing this statistic. What made the journey home even more depressing was the comparison to previous years....

In 2007, Waterford scored 15 goals in 5 Championship games with 14 of those coming from play.

In 2008, Waterford scored 12 goals in 6 Championship games with 11 of those coming from play.

In 2009, Waterford scored 6 goals in 5 Championship games with 4 of these coming from play.

In 2010, Waterford scored 4 goals in 4 Championship games with 4 of these coming from play.

In 2011, Waterford scored 6 goals in 4 Championship games with 6 of these coming from play.

In 2012, Waterford scored 2 goals in 3 Championship games with 1 of these coming from play.

The last 5 years waterford have scored 43 goals in 24 games with 39 of them coming from play. In this years Championship we managed just 2 goals and the most worrying part is just 1 has come from play. The depressing thing about this year from other years is we don't even look like scoring at any stage in a match. Its nearly a surprise if Waterford score a goal at this stage. Simply put, Waterford just don't have the forwards. Its all well and good having brilliant players like Kevin Moran, Molumphy, Brick and Noel Connors who can prevent goals, but goal prevention isn't going to win any All Irelands - goal scoring is. To make a breakthrough Waterford need at least 3 forwards capable of scoring goals. At the minute we have 1 in Shane Walsh, 1 isn't good enough. Although Mullane is probably the best forward in the country for the last 4 or 5 years his goalscoring record isn't as good as it probably should be. Goals win games and for now, the lack of goals is the achilles heel in this Waterford team. The Munster final was crying out for a Waterford goal that never came, and more importantly never looked like coming. Today against Cork a goal anywhere between the 20th - 60th minute would have taken Waterford into the All Ireland semi final. Unfortunately, that goal never came and once again never even looked like coming. In Championship games involving Wexford, Clare, Cork, Offaly, Galway, Tipperary, Dublin and Kilkenny there has been lots of goals and lots and lots of goal chances. The one goal Waterford did score from play this year wasn't even created by us, it came from a poor mistake in the Clare full back line.

Having been very confident of a Waterford win today, I now think that it was blind faith which made me think we would win. We simply aren't creative enough from 10 - 15 and although we are solid from 1 - 9 and we will be for the next 5 or 6 years, the problems at 10 - 15 look set to continue for us, and if they do then we can forget about winning a Munster title let alone an All Ireland because without a creative and ruthless set of forwards we will continue to be disappointed. I'm not having a go at anyone on the team as I am proud of their efforts. Its just that when we are really honest with ourselves we simply aren't good enough at the moment.

Very good post here ,and i see a trend when the Brick and Molumphy were in midfield they were excellent ,probably the best midfield duo ,well up there with Derek Lyng/Cha Fitz,and Tom Kenny/Jerry O Connor,why they were ever sent in different directions is beyond me ie,Stephen into the corner and the Brick at cb,i personally think midfield is BRICKS best position he was a great man to run at defences and goals flowed,its time now to move Brick up the field ,Moran in cb and go from there,its time to be brave,show some balls ,the Brick makes it happen but he is too far back the field,if i lined out against him and saw him that far back the field first thing i would think would be THANK GOD,

deisedub · 31-07-2012 11:01am

Cake Man wrote: »

deisedub wrote: »

Probables;
1,Laurence Power abbeyside
2,Mark Shanahan Sacred Heart
3, Eddie Hayden Ballygunner
4, David Prendergast Lismore
5,Craig Brown Sacred Heart
6, Shane Ryan De La Salle
7, Shane Murray Cappaquinn
8, Edmond O'Halloran Clashmore
9, M.J Sutton Ferrybank
10, Adam Crawford Cois Bhride
11, Conor Gleeson Four Mile Water
12, Shane Benntt Lismore
13, John Ahearn Ferrybank
14, Sean Daly Abbeyside
15, Jack Mullaney Stradbally
a good few lads missing cause of Hols, injurys etc but overall a good spread across the county

Would recognise nearly all those players from the TF winning team of two years ago but I notice Patrick Curran of Dungarvan is missing. I presume he's one that's either injured or on holidays, he's a serious prospect. Practically won us the TF that year and is playing minor for club and doing very well. Also on the Harty winning team this year. Will surely be county minor next year I'd imagine.

Is this the team (or at least the bones of it) that will represent Waterford in the Arrabawn in a few weeks?

A number of players were on the sideline and Patrick was 1 of them. This is the squad going to the Arrabawn in Sept.

Deise Hurler · 31-07-2012 11:11am

Who cares who wins an all star. It's all ireland medals we want.

Sunday's game was a bit disappointing but at least this year we have started to play proper hurling again and if we can build on that next year I think the team can improve. For the first twenty minutes on sunday Waterford soloed with ball too much and constantly lost possesion. Then all off a sudden fast low ball was driven into the full forward line and there was a fast improvement. Against tipp and clare there was some great fast low ball driven into the full forward line and some great scores resulted. When we solo with the ball we go nowhere.

1 to 9 Waterford have a very strong team. For next year we may not have Tony Browne. What a legend he has been. Again this year he has been brilliant. Hopefully Tony stays playing next year but if he does call it a day at least we have an able replacement in a fully fit darragh fives.

The forwards is where Waterford need to improve if we are to challenge for All Ireland's. The forwards need to be made sat down and watch hours of Kilkenny forwards. See how they always pass the ball to a player in a better position anf if near goal go for the jugular. Some of our forwards only have eyes for the posts and their own score count. At the moment we have 3 forwards up to the standard in my opinion, Seamus Pender, John Mullane and Shane Walsh. Pender has been brilliant this year. If he wasnt there we would really be stuck for a ball winner. He often frustrates with his shooting and would be better off leaving in fast ball to the full forward line. Hopefully he plays on next year as his ball winning ability has become invaluable to the team. John Mullane is John Mullane. Like Tony a legend. No need to play John in the league anymore. Keep him fresh and hungry for the championship. Shane Walsh has become a great player but he should be playing closer to goal. By that I mean just standing on the edge of the square. On sunday he was often nearly out in the half forward line and a good few balls dropped into nash without him being challenged. Of the other forwards Maurice solos way too much. If he built himself up more and let the ball do the work he could become a great player. Pauric Mahony is not physical enough for wing forward. Sean Og cleaned up on him when marking him towards the end of the game on Sunday, winning puckout after puckout. Pauric would be better suited to the corner in my oponion. Hopefully the management team can find some new forwards in particular in the upcoming senior, intermediate and junior club championships. Someone with ball winning abilities in the half forward line would be a godsend.

Finally its a bit sad to see the bickering going on in the up the deise facebook page. That tool that runs it stirring it all up and players wifes and sisters responding. No wonder we cant win any celtic crosses.

Orizio · 31-07-2012 11:47am

redlead wrote: »

As good as O'Keefe is, there is no way he would start ahead of Herrity or Cummins.

I'd have him ahead of Herity all day long.

Orizio · 31-07-2012 11:49am

redlead wrote: »

I would rather see Liam Watson get an all star this year than any Waterford player. The guy sticks with his county

Ask some of the Antrim lads about this and get back to me... :pac:

redlead · 31-07-2012 11:52am

Orizio wrote: »

Ask some of the Antrim lads about this and get back to me... :pac:

What do you mean?

solarith · 31-07-2012 12:05pm

I wonder how the subs on the panel felt about Eoin McGrath coming on last Sunday? I'd be pretty disillusioned if I had been training all year to see him sprung from bench like that.

Roger Sterling · 31-07-2012 12:07pm

deisedude wrote: »

You should wait for players to come to a decision before you retire them.

+1. Wouldn't actually surprise me to see both Mullane nd Tony back again next year. There's not a pick on either of them and they're both more than well able. Give them the leagure off, blood some reliable replacements for the future and keep them ready for Championship.

Black Suir · 31-07-2012 2:47pm

Full marks to the County Board and in particular Timmy O'Keeffe for getting together so quickly after Sunday's defeat and drawing up plans for the Senior Hurling and Football Championship for the remainder of the year. I am sure that the two divisional secretaries have their plans put in place and Waterford will have all their teams in place to take part in the Munster Club Championship. Deise Tom (Thomas Keane) has given details of the remaining games in the championships http://deiseabu.blogspot.ie/ and I'm sure that the local papers will also have them tomorrow when they come out. Its a pity that the News and Star comes out on a Tuesday. Their sports coverage is good but they miss out on some of the G.A.A. News which is made known to clubs and the media often on a Monday night after they meet, when the N&S have gone to print.

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

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