Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

Victor · 15-07-2012 3:54pm

newmug wrote: »

Ok I'll re-phrase - If you work for the public service / semi-state body, no matter what you currently earn, it should be taxed such that you have no more than E500 per week take-home-pay, until such time as this recession is over. The trade-off for this temporary wage reduction is your permanent job, and if you're not happy with that, take your chances in the private sector.

Can we stick to the topic at hand?

bk · 15-07-2012 4:18pm

The problems with Irish Rail are really very simple, their trains are too slow and too expensive.

Things like better advertising etc. are nice ideas, but they won't fix these fundamental problems they face.

But the bigger issue is falling revenue.

Irish rail wont be getting any more capital money from the government. IRs subsidies will be cut substantially. Ticket revenue will fall due to losing passengers to the recession and more significantly faster and cheaper cars and buses on the motorways.

So all this means less money, which they would ideally want to invest in speeding up the trains and dropping ticket prices.

What can they do about this?

Well unfortunately very little. They will likely make some small infrastructure investments and time table tweaks to bring down journey times a little, but it won't make much difference.

The bigger task for Irish Rail will be significant cost cutting, to try and bring costs in lone with the falling revenue. Hopefully they can achieve that without significant cuts in scheduled services.

foggy_lad · 15-07-2012 4:31pm

They need to get rid of first class on all services because it is costing too much for normal passengers to subsidise those that use it. Also shut down lines that are losing massive amounts of money but are kept open for sentimental or historic reasons, the Nenagh branch needs to be torn up along with the Waterford-Rosslare line and the Waterford-Limerick Junction line should also go.

As far as advertising goes the adverts all show modern bright stations but the reality for most passengers is some pokey rotten sh1thole like Kildare where the smell of stale urine from the toilet and rot and damp from the walls and floors in the dirty waiting room makes standing out in the cold and rain a more pleasant way to wait for the train.

JeffK88 · 15-07-2012 4:36pm

Once projects like the Dart Underground and commuter system in Cork and other cities is finished people will slowly return to the railways. Recently wasnt a study on a 20 year vision for IE released. At least it shows some people are thinking long term and are planning ahead. Realistically it will be some years before the funding will be available for electrification and major upgrades of the railways (ie Double tracking, New rail routes). For now they will have to ride out the storm like the rest of us. IE have done a few good things or at least tried such as The Cork Midleton commuter route. Here in Newbridge the station is undergoing an upgrade new footbridge, Relaying of platform bricks and the station building cleaned up and brought up to 21st Century Ireland while maintaining 19th century buildings. Yes , these are little things but at least they are being done. I have faith in IE not in its current form but for its future, hopefully at the other end of this recession we will learn from our mistakes made during the boom years of not properly investing in the railway. Yes we have motorways and express buses and all that but I think what people like about the railway is comfort and that's it big selling point, you can walk down a carriage a use a toilet or grab a coffee even a beer , something you cannot do on a bus. At the moment I do not use the commuter service to Dublin service to Dublin as it is to expensive but in saying that i would use the train to travel anywhere else in the country which are reasonably priced when booked in advance. I used the Enterprise service for the first time in May going to Belfast on a Friday to return on the Sunday which cost me 20euro return. There are some positives and no i do not work for IE or do not know anybody who works for them.
Essay over

newmug · 15-07-2012 5:42pm

bazza1 wrote: »

Brilliant!
Tax all public servants,Nurses, Guards, Teachers etc down to €500 take home! Abolish public transport!
Everyone in the country to go on minimum wage and work for the national collective!
Change the countrys name to Albania circa 1970
Are you Michael Noonan on a troll?

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. And we're talking about saving public transport.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Better still, get those that pay no tax to start paying some.

I fully agree with that.

corktina wrote: »

Public servants are already getting soaked with a pensions levy for which they get nothing back, an extra tax on their permanent jobs if you like, paid bu all of them, including those below €500 a week net. My Wife is one and shortyl will be taking her chances in the Private Sector....

An extra, temporary, tax. And aren't PS workers lucky to have a pension to be levied in the first place! Best of luck to your wife. I hope she has something lined up, because if she doesn't, say goodbye to the life you know now.

Victor wrote: »

Can we stick to the topic at hand?

The topic at hand is why IE are doing so bad. The main reason is money. I am suggesting, that as a semi-state body, one part of their costs that we as taxpayers can control is wages. We are in desparate times, we need to take huge and painful steps to put things right again, or we'll just continue to spiral into worse and worse circumstances.

IMO at the moment, all PS/SS wages should be E500 net. In the context of IE, that would mean the vast majority of workers would not be taking a hit in their wallet at all, but the fat cats at the top would. This would do two things. Firstly, it would save some money, allowing for tickets to remain at current prices when govt. subsidies dry up, and secondly, it would light a fire under the arses of the top brass to actually do their job, ie run a profit making national railway. It should be a case of no results, no job.

murphaph · 15-07-2012 5:52pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

They need to get rid of first class on all services because it is costing too much for normal passengers to subsidise those that use it.

Are you sure? Airline passengers in 1st certainly subsidise the tickets in economy-without 1st a flight to NY would cost significantly more for an economy passenger, even if the whole plane was economy seating. I would imagine it's similar for the railways?

foggy_lad · 15-07-2012 6:11pm

murphaph wrote: »

Are you sure? Airline passengers in 1st certainly subsidise the tickets in economy-without 1st a flight to NY would cost significantly more for an economy passenger, even if the whole plane was economy seating. I would imagine it's similar for the railways?

There are so few using the first class services especially off peak that the extra costs in providing the service(extra staff,loss of seating due to having a dining car and kitchen in one carriage etc) is not covered by the people travelling and the shortfall has to be paid from revenue from standard class customers.

christmas2012 · 15-07-2012 6:17pm

1) its overpriced

2) its not accessible as it should be(there should be interlinked functioning rails nationwide,i see a lot of disused rails around ireland,if we get them back functioning and people in jobs its 2 pluses)..

3) facilities and options are not what they could be(food is stale and overpriced),service is poor.

foggy_lad · 15-07-2012 6:21pm

There used to be connections from Balina to Carlow from the 17.45pm Ballina-Dublin with a change at Portarlington and another at Kildare onto the last Carlow train, this was also a connection for anyone tavelling from Cork on the 6.30pm train but both connections are now gone due to Irish Rail not being focused on customers needs.

christmas2012 · 15-07-2012 6:24pm

Its a pity because if they bit the bullet and put more investment into customers needs,as you can see there was a demand for it,if they had more train connections people would slowly move away from their expensive road tax/car insurance/NCT every year cars and petrol expenses for the option of train communting,its everywhere in the UK,why not here,the more common it is the cheaper it will become too,theres no reason why we shouldnt invest and have more jobs in that sector for a healthier economy..

jacko1 · 15-07-2012 6:35pm

JeffK88 wrote: »

Once projects like the Dart Underground and commuter system in Cork and other cities is finished people will slowly return to the railways. Recently wasnt a study on a 20 year vision for IE released. At least it shows some people are thinking long term and are planning ahead. Realistically it will be some years before the funding will be available for electrification and major upgrades of the railways (ie Double tracking, New rail routes). For now they will have to ride out the storm like the rest of us. IE have done a few good things or at least tried such as The Cork Midleton commuter route. Here in Newbridge the station is undergoing an upgrade new footbridge, Relaying of platform bricks and the station building cleaned up and brought up to 21st Century Ireland while maintaining 19th century buildings. Yes , these are little things but at least they are being done. I have faith in IE not in its current form but for its future, hopefully at the other end of this recession we will learn from our mistakes made during the boom years of not properly investing in the railway. Yes we have motorways and express buses and all that but I think what people like about the railway is comfort and that's it big selling point, you can walk down a carriage a use a toilet or grab a coffee even a beer , something you cannot do on a bus. At the moment I do not use the commuter service to Dublin service to Dublin as it is to expensive but in saying that i would use the train to travel anywhere else in the country which are reasonably priced when booked in advance. I used the Enterprise service for the first time in May going to Belfast on a Friday to return on the Sunday which cost me 20euro return. There are some positives and no i do not work for IE or do not know anybody who works for them.
Essay over

excellent post
The two Cork commuter routes(Cork-Midleton & Cork/Cobh) are a template for a well run rail service.

The service is frequent (half hourly peak and hourly off peak), good value (especially the yearly tax saver) and reliable. Plenty of intermediate services and when domestic demand lags in the summer it is replaced with tourists.

While passenger numbers are falling else where they are increasing on the cork commuter routes

PS: the bus link from Kent Station helps as well !

steamengine · 15-07-2012 6:42pm

JeffK88 wrote: »

Once projects like the Dart Underground and commuter system in Cork and other cities is finished people will slowly return to the railways. Recently wasnt a study on a 20 year vision for IE released. At least it shows some people are thinking long term and are planning ahead. Realistically it will be some years before the funding will be available for electrification and major upgrades of the railways (ie Double tracking, New rail routes). For now they will have to ride out the storm like the rest of us. IE have done a few good things or at least tried such as The Cork Midleton commuter route. Here in Newbridge the station is undergoing an upgrade new footbridge, Relaying of platform bricks and the station building cleaned up and brought up to 21st Century Ireland while maintaining 19th century buildings. Yes , these are little things but at least they are being done. I have faith in IE not in its current form but for its future, hopefully at the other end of this recession we will learn from our mistakes made during the boom years of not properly investing in the railway. Yes we have motorways and express buses and all that but I think what people like about the railway is comfort and that's it big selling point, you can walk down a carriage a use a toilet or grab a coffee even a beer , something you cannot do on a bus. At the moment I do not use the commuter service to Dublin service to Dublin as it is to expensive but in saying that i would use the train to travel anywhere else in the country which are reasonably priced when booked in advance. I used the Enterprise service for the first time in May going to Belfast on a Friday to return on the Sunday which cost me 20euro return. There are some positives and no i do not work for IE or do not know anybody who works for them.
Essay over

+1.........great post and here is the link to the AECOM/Goodbody 2030 Rail Vision Report you've mentioned.

dowlingm · 15-07-2012 6:50pm

davidlacey wrote: »

Its all well and good having works done throughout the county but i think the state of some of our stations such as the ones i have listed earlier and even including the likes of newbridge , has alot to be desired and very off putting for a customer who has a bus eireann alternative in most cases, Considering we are living in 21 st century ireland alot of stations appearance and facilities are poor

On this I agree with you, however the issue there is that IE have to maintain bricks and mortar facilities like this whereas the bus companies have only a pole at the vast majority of their stops. This is complicated by the status of much of the station buildings as heritage, complicating maintenance and expansion. On a double track station where a footbridge must be replaced with elevators to enable a 2nd platform to be brought into service, this could cost 500K because of demands for safe and accessible access from various branches of government.

purplepanda · 15-07-2012 7:06pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Also shut down lines that are losing massive amounts of money but are kept open for sentimental or historic reasons, the Nenagh branch needs to be torn up along with the Waterford-Rosslare line and the Waterford-Limerick Junction line should also go.

Followed by Greystones-Rosslare, Kildare-Waterford, Longford-Sligo & don't forget to add the WRC, plus including anyline west of Athlone :pac:

Judgement Day · 15-07-2012 7:20pm

I love all the suggestions on how IE could improve their marketing - and this for a company that can't even produce an all-line public rail timetable anymore! Even when they did produce a timetable they failed to advertise their own products in it! I raised the issue with Dick Fearn on a number of occasions but you might as well talk to your toes. Wake up and smell the coffee people - to save the railways the beast must die.

foggy_lad · 15-07-2012 7:37pm

purplepanda wrote: »

Followed by Greystones-Rosslare, Kildare-Waterford, Longford-Sligo & don't forget to add the WRC, plus including anyline west of Athlone :pac:

I was thinking that Carlow and Wexford might be viable and the Sligo line as far as Longford and also keep the Westport and Ballina lines but improve track and speeds over the next few years. Also keep Galway but lose the western fail corridor at the same time as the other failed lines.

foggy_lad · 15-07-2012 7:39pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

I love all the suggestions on how IE could improve their marketing - and this for a company that can't even produce an all-line public rail timetable anymore! Even when they did produce a timetable they failed to advertise their own products in it! I raised the issue with Dick Fearn on a number of occasions but you might as well talk to your toes. Wake up and smell the coffee people - to save the railways the beast must die.

Are you just looking for more railway memorabelia to flog on adverts.ie ?

miller50841 · 15-07-2012 8:41pm

artybart wrote: »

I took the train from Sligo to Dublin for the first time yesterday. 2hours and 58 minutes to do a couple of hundred kilometers, stopping at every little village along the way. Chugging along at 10 miles per hour. Plus, they also had slow stopping trains as well as the "Fast trains" for the little villages.
Comming back I asked at the ticket office for a ticket on the non-stop Dublin to Sligo!!!!! He said it does not exist???

Therein lies the problem.

Exactly what I brought up there should be an expresso system like on DBus.
Limit the amount of stops.
It ahs improved a lot to what that line use to be like but if you want people to leave their cars at home you need to be able to get there a hell of a lot faster then on road..

miller50841 · 15-07-2012 8:43pm

newmug wrote: »

They seriously need to cut wages in the public / semi-state sector across the board. This recession is akin to the state of the economy during WW2. Drastic action is needed to cut costs, no public servant / semi-state worker should be earning any more than E500 per week in this economic climate.

1st things that need to change are corruption from the top.
Then sort out the huge cost of living.
Then I would be able to take a cut

Judgement Day · 15-07-2012 8:46pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Are you just looking for more railway memorabelia to flog on adverts.ie ?

As it happens I used to sell quite a lot of the public timetable each year - not on Adverts - and if you add the enthusiast market to the public who would buy a copy it should be a viable proposition. In fact Dick Fearn confirmed that even after the price went up it was a popular seller - I'll put the letter up if you don't believe me. The usual IE apologists needn't post giving all the usual technical bs as to why its no longer practical to produce an all-lines timetable.

miller50841 · 15-07-2012 9:05pm

How much was it to buy the timetable is there not an app for Smart phones

Judgement Day · 15-07-2012 9:12pm

miller50841 wrote: »

How much was it to buy the timetable is there not an app for Smart phones

I seem to remember that the last one was €2 and you have to remember that not everyone has, or indeed wants, a Smart phone.

miller50841 · 15-07-2012 9:30pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

I seem to remember that the last one was €2 and you have to remember that not everyone has, or indeed wants, a Smart phone.

I do understand some don't like technology:) was just wondering.
So they stopped doing them thats bad is'nt it

foggy_lad · 15-07-2012 9:41pm

miller50841 wrote: »

I do understand some don't like technology:) was just wondering.
So they stopped doing them thats bad is'nt it

Not as bad as trying to force people to use their ticket vending machines when they may not have a credit card or change or may not be able to read or may require tickets not available from the machines, these machines also cant issue child tickets from sone stations and are often vandalised or accept notes only or coins only or credit cards only or the touchscreens don't work etc etc etc . . . . and I doubt very much that the RPU stormtroopers are updated on any ongoing or realtime basis about machines not working or when a station booking office closes early like often happens in Newbridge.

miller50841 · 15-07-2012 9:44pm

Thats very bad also there has to be enough people out there to keep onto them about it ans not a phone call Im talking about letters its the only way.

Judgement Day · 15-07-2012 9:52pm

Here's a couple of pics from a 1977 CIE Mainline Rail timetable - they really take some beating. CIE/IE have gone from the extreme of providing very obscure information likely to be of very little use to most people purchasing the timetable to not offering a timetable at all. You couldn't make it up! :rolleyes:

timetables%2B003.JPG

newmug · 15-07-2012 9:56pm

miller50841 wrote: »

1st things that need to change are corruption from the top.
Then sort out the huge cost of living.
Then I would be able to take a cut

What better way to weed out corruption than to starve it of its fuel - money. If some of the gobsh1tes in this country earning ridiculous money had to make do with E500 net per week, I bet you wastage and inefficiencies would disappear pretty quick!

davidlacey · 15-07-2012 9:57pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

They need to get rid of first class on all services because it is costing too much for normal passengers to subsidise those that use it. Also shut down lines that are losing massive amounts of money but are kept open for sentimental or historic reasons, the Nenagh branch needs to be torn up along with the Waterford-Rosslare line and the Waterford-Limerick Junction line should also go.

As far as advertising goes the adverts all show modern bright stations but the reality for most passengers is some pokey rotten sh1thole like Kildare where the smell of stale urine from the toilet and rot and damp from the walls and floors in the dirty waiting room makes standing out in the cold and rain a more pleasant way to wait for the train.

Getting rid of further routes will do nothing for us? We could have done with many routes which were closed in the 50s/60s eg. Harcort street line, cork-youghal etc... But instead we have to invest 100s of millions to set up a lias to replace that route and a cOmmuter service to midelton so closing lines and ripping them up is just the short sighted nature that IE is well known for, just wait for IE if this DFDS suspension is true, IE will close all connections to belview port so that it will never be able to use it again if things turn around in the future. I believe the rosslare waterford line has no use unless the sugarbeet ever returns in the future but shutting down lines is all well and good but if they are not maintained for possible future use is a pointless move. Look at athlone-mullingar would be alot cheaper to reinstate in future times if it was given a little TLC

CIE · 15-07-2012 10:05pm

davidlacey wrote: »

Getting rid of further routes will do nothing for us? We could have done with many routes which were closed in the 50s/60s eg. Harcourt street line, cork-youghal etc... But instead we have to invest 100s of millions to set up a luas to replace that route and a commuter service to midelton so closing lines and ripping them up is just the short sighted nature that IE is well known for, just wait for IE if this DFDS suspension is true, IE will close all connections to belview port so that it will never be able to use it again if things turn around in the future. I believe the rosslare waterford line has no use unless the sugarbeet ever returns in the future but shutting down lines is all well and good but if they are not maintained for possible future use is a pointless move. Look at athlone-mullingar would be a lot cheaper to reinstate in future times if it was given a little TLC

Problem with sugar beet is that the European Union now dictates agricultural policy, which is imperialism (and the "Republicans" are utterly silent, aren't they). That has to stop, but is there anyone in Leinster House brave enough to tell the EU where to go?

IMHO, the Harcourt Street Line should have been the first electrified underground line in the city, i.e. building underground from just south of the old station location, passing under O'Connell Street and joining up with the Broadstone Line on the north side. From there, a number of possibilities open up; building the planned Blanchardstown spur, creating another spur to Finglas (and possibly the Airport), or with the buildup in the suburbs nowadays, electric service to/from Maynooth. (The one bright spot about building Luas on the old Harcourt Street Line is only that they didn't build that planned busway instead.)

When a railway closes, that alignment becomes economically useless. You can't transport goods via a greenway.

foggy_lad · 15-07-2012 10:19pm

davidlacey wrote: »

Getting rid of further routes will do nothing for us? We could have done with many routes which were closed in the 50s/60s eg. Harcort street line, cork-youghal etc... But instead we have to invest 100s of millions to set up a lias to replace that route and a cOmmuter service to midelton so closing lines and ripping them up is just the short sighted nature that IE is well known for, just wait for IE if this DFDS suspension is true, IE will close all connections to belview port so that it will never be able to use it again if things turn around in the future. I believe the rosslare waterford line has no use unless the sugarbeet ever returns in the future but shutting down lines is all well and good but if they are not maintained for possible future use is a pointless move. Look at athlone-mullingar would be alot cheaper to reinstate in future times if it was given a little TLC

THe harcourt street line was adequate for the old trams and trolly buses but would not have been of any use for the Luas, the old irish way of settling for second hand stuff and using old bits of broken things to make something new just does not work well unless your favourite words are "Ah sure it'll do!".

Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

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