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Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

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24567…33

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    #32
    Matt Bauer
    Registered Users Posts: 628 ✭✭✭Matt Bauer


    I'd take the train more often if it was less expensive. Please bring down ticket prices!


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    #33
    miller50841
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭miller50841


    To us it makes sense lower prices but upstairs won't take that as an answer


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    #34
    miller50841
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭miller50841


    CIE wrote: »
    Advertising goes only so far. If word of mouth works against the advertising, then false advertising will hurt more than helping.

    Most trains nowadays have air-conditioning I thought? If it's stuffy in a railway carriage, then the climate control system is not being maintained.

    As far as gaps, looks to me like IE is not ordering rolling stock that can take advantage of the loading gauge. Older railway cars used to be almost as wide as some US passenger carriages (e.g. Park Royals at 10' 2" or 3099 mm); most modern stock is narrower (e.g. the 22000 class width is 2840 mm or 9' 4") and have the doors at the "quarter points" instead of the ends of the cars (except the 22000 class and Mark 4), and that makes it harder to board at curved platforms.

    Well here is an idea for someone that could design an add on to link train to platform without them stupid ramps which have to be carried to the carriage and asked for


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    #35
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Victor wrote: »

    But you need to have a car and pay all its costs in the first place.

    What! Are trains only supposed to be for people without cars?
    I take the bus to Donegal instead of my car because its much cheaper.

    I have the costs of my car in any case because I use it for various needs. I could argue that those costs are much cheaper than taking taxis for example for my needs.

    IR could learn a lesson or two from Ryanair.


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    #36
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    IR could learn a lesson or two from Ryanair
    Which would be...? Just how does Ryanair get the government to pay for its airport infrastructure without complaining? Same goes for the road and lorry lobbies.

    BTW, Lufthansa is certainly no fan of Ryanair.


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    #37
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    CIE wrote: »
    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    IR could learn a lesson or two from Ryanair
    Which would be...? Just how does Ryanair get the government to pay for its airport infrastructure without complaining? Same goes for the road and lorry lobbies.

    This obviously means that IE are weak when it comes to lobbying or just couldnt care less


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    #38
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,327 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    gsxr1

    this is the stuff I know about that is happening/has happened recently and off the top of my head

    relaying on Nenagh branch
    relaying/rationalisation on LJ-Wat
    UIC60 south of Portlaoise
    bay platform at Clonsilla
    LC works most recently on Kerry line
    Bridge works most recently on LJ-Limerick
    Switch replacement most recently Lisduff
    Station works beginning at Oranmore

    How much more do you want done with having half the network bustituted?


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    #39
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    dowlingm wrote: »
    gsxr1

    this is the stuff I know about that is happening/has happened recently and off the top of my head

    relaying on Nenagh branch
    relaying/rationalisation on LJ-Wat
    UIC60 south of Portlaoise
    bay platform at Clonsilla
    LC works most recently on Kerry line
    Bridge works most recently on LJ-Limerick
    Switch replacement most recently Lisduff
    Station works beginning at Oranmore

    How much more do you want done with having half the network bustituted?

    Its all well and good having works done throughout the county but i think the state of some of our stations such as the ones i have listed earlier and even including the likes of newbridge , has alot to be desired and very off putting for a customer who has a bus eireann alternative in most cases, Considering we are living in 21 st century ireland alot of stations appearance and facilities are poor


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    #40
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    davidlacey wrote: »
    Its all well and good having works done throughout the county but i think the state of some of our stations such as the ones i have listed earlier and even including the likes of newbridge , has alot to be desired and very off putting for a customer who has a bus eireann alternative in most cases, Considering we are living in 21 st century ireland alot of stations appearance and facilities are poor
    Newbridge doesn't even have staff now after 3pm, Kildare station will fall on customers a lot sooner than newbridge though and worse than both of them is sallins which is rotting from the bricked up interior out. Sallins is inhabited now solely by pigeons.

    These are the worst commuter stations but there are more dangerous and far more dilapidated stations around the country especially on the almost disused branch lines.


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    #41
    JeffK88
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JeffK88


    Victor wrote: »
    Yes, there are problems, but:

    The economy is in a hole and people aren't travelling as much as they used to.

    The motorways have taken away part of the market.

    Too much was spent of track and trains, and certain vanity projects and not enough on structures and the removal of bottle necks.

    But you need to have a car and pay all its costs in the first place.

    You need to compare like with like. Buy in advance and you can get cheap tickets.

    Flying to Edinburgh with Ryanair in 4 weeks times is €19.99 single (Excluding admin fee of £6/€6 per person/per sector (if applicable)), but tomorrow is €110.24 single (Excluding admin fee of £6/€6 per person/per sector (if applicable)). The comparable prices for Dublin-Cork are are €19.99 and €32.99 single (excl. €2 transaction and €1 credit card fee).

    Would that be in your private jet? As there are no scheduled flights.

    Some of the recent fare increases need to be seen for what they are - the passenger paying more of the price and the state paying less of the price.

    There use to be a Air service from Dublin to Cork only noticed it has ceased. Now there are other alternatives such as the various express Bus Services connecting the regional Cities/Towns to Dublin and each other. IE has alot of work to do before people start turning back to the railways.There really isn't much IE can do when Ireland is still gripped by this recession. I think the problem lies with the management. They have the trains and population along most its routes to run an efficient railway service. More incentives need to be put out there for people to use the railway. With the Titanic Museum in Belfast maybe make a deal with them and have some kind of package where you have a package including Enterprise-Bus to Titanic Museum plus a Hotel.
    Just for one example. Similar deals could be done at other sites on the Island. You have to spend a little money to get money back. More Railway tours such as a tourist tour guide train along the Rosslare line ( Someone mentioned above that this was one of the most scenic railways on these Isles) IE could partner up with hotels and BNBs along the lines offer deals and advertise with Discover Ireland. ( Discover Ireland by rail) I know similar things are there but just throwing a few ideas out there of what could be done to help IE and Ireland in general.


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    #42
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    murphaph wrote: »
    Because the lines are generally substandard because IE never rebuilt them properly, just relaid them with new track.

    And you know this how exactly?


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    #43
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    What! Are trains only supposed to be for people without cars?
    I take the bus to Donegal instead of my car because its much cheaper.

    I have the costs of my car in any case because I use it for various needs. I could argue that those costs are much cheaper than taking taxis for example for my needs.

    IR could learn a lesson or two from Ryanair.

    The train for Cork , terminates in Tipperary :)


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    #44
    cute_cow
    Registered Users Posts: 636 ✭✭✭cute_cow


    miller50841 wrote: »
    I've noticed smaller amounts of carriages at busy times wonder are they going to take on the china way of travel and push everyone on till the doors can close bit like sardines in a can:D

    This has been happening at peak / commuter trains since the leaving certificate ended. Someone Tweeted them about it and their reply was "There is reduced capacity on a number of services due to lower seasonal demand". I don't mind using this as an excuse during none peak times, but at peak times they should have a minimum of 6 carriages.

    I can see what they are trying to do, but just because students have finished their exams, and are not using the trains, it is the time of year that Spanish/German etc students are using the same service, so therefore there is no reduction in passengers.

    I get the Dart at about 7.50 in the mornings and 6.20 in the evenings. I should say I used to. I started getting the bus in the morning, it works out cheaper for me, I don't get pushed and shoved when the 4 carriage Dart arrives full after 2 stops, and I am in town and able to get a coffee before I get to work. A lot less stressful.

    The bf's sister used to live in Cork and we many times we were quoted at €70.00 each for a return journey. That's €140 for 2. Ended up flying with RyanAir when they did the Dublin - Cork route and the most we paid was €40 each return. Incudling buses to and from the airports, was far cheaper.

    However, Irish Rail are not as expensive as they used to be. They have very good deals if you book in advance online. And expecially for families. The majority of their trains are modern and comfortable and with the introduction of free wifi, it should encourage people to use the trains more. However, there are still a couple of issues. On some trains, after booking a seat you get onto find the seat taken, even though your name is above it. And when mentioned to Irish Rail staff, they shrug their shoulders and go back to chatting to their colleagues. Customer services if non-existant!

    However, more and more I have noticed the old "signal fault" excuse creeping in at least once or twice a week. For the amount of money they have spent in the last 10ish years, updating stations, adding extra platform for longer trains, and updating the infrastructure (inc signals) there are too many faults happening.


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    #45
    miller50841
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭miller50841


    JeffK88 wrote: »
    There use to be a Air service from Dublin to Cork only noticed it has ceased. Now there are other alternatives such as the various express Bus Services connecting the regional Cities/Towns to Dublin and each other. IE has alot of work to do before people start turning back to the railways.There really isn't much IE can do when Ireland is still gripped by this recession. I think the problem lies with the management. They have the trains and population along most its routes to run an efficient railway service. More incentives need to be put out there for people to use the railway. With the Titanic Museum in Belfast maybe make a deal with them and have some kind of package where you have a package including Enterprise-Bus to Titanic Museum plus a Hotel.
    Just for one example. Similar deals could be done at other sites on the Island. You have to spend a little money to get money back. More Railway tours such as a tourist tour guide train along the Rosslare line ( Someone mentioned above that this was one of the most scenic railways on these Isles) IE could partner up with hotels and BNBs along the lines offer deals and advertise with Discover Ireland. ( Discover Ireland by rail) I know similar things are there but just throwing a few ideas out there of what could be done to help IE and Ireland in general.

    There are train tours and bus link ups should be all on there site have seen some on backs of tourist leaflets


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    #46
    miller50841
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭miller50841


    cute_cow wrote: »
    This has been happening at peak / commuter trains since the leaving certificate ended. Someone Tweeted them about it and their reply was "There is reduced capacity on a number of services due to lower seasonal demand". I don't mind using this as an excuse during none peak times, but at peak times they should have a minimum of 6 carriages.

    I can see what they are trying to do, but just because students have finished their exams, and are not using the trains, it is the time of year that Spanish/German etc students are using the same service, so therefore there is no reduction in passengers.

    I get the Dart at about 7.50 in the mornings and 6.20 in the evenings. I should say I used to. I started getting the bus in the morning, it works out cheaper for me, I don't get pushed and shoved when the 4 carriage Dart arrives full after 2 stops, and I am in town and able to get a coffee before I get to work. A lot less stressful.

    The bf's sister used to live in Cork and we many times we were quoted at €70.00 each for a return journey. That's €140 for 2. Ended up flying with RyanAir when they did the Dublin - Cork route and the most we paid was €40 each return. Incudling buses to and from the airports, was far cheaper.

    However, Irish Rail are not as expensive as they used to be. They have very good deals if you book in advance online. And expecially for families. The majority of their trains are modern and comfortable and with the introduction of free wifi, it should encourage people to use the trains more. However, there are still a couple of issues. On some trains, after booking a seat you get onto find the seat taken, even though your name is above it. And when mentioned to Irish Rail staff, they shrug their shoulders and go back to chatting to their colleagues. Customer services if non-existant!

    My Girl f had that problem where there carriage was cleary posted reserved seating and the attitude of the person sitting in their seat they actually done their best to put her and her friends down and how dare they try and take their seat. Some people are so ignorant and aggressive its getting very bad. The funny thing is there was a person there that didn't know the lady that had taken the reserved seat and actually sided with her just doesn't make any sense. They eventually after a long discusion got her to move. This shouldn't be tolerated by passengers or staff some need to be just put in their place and shown they are wrong
    However, more and more I have noticed the old "signal fault" excuse creeping in at least once or twice a week. For the amount of money they have spent in the last 10ish years, updating stations, adding extra platform for longer trains, and updating the infrastructure (inc signals) there are too many faults happening.

    Whats happening more now is cables are been robbed that are for the signals. They using to sell on for scrap (money)


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    #47
    JeffK88
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JeffK88


    miller50841 wrote: »
    There are train tours and bus link ups should be all on there site have seen some on backs of tourist leaflets

    Well that's a good thing now they need to advertise it more and make it more readily available run an add campaign with Discover Ireland or a TV add campaign . If they have Railtours up and running promote it some more get people using it. I see on the website they have a partnership with Barrett's. If only they could expand on it now if the infrastructure and the partnerships are already in place it shouldn't cost to much.


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    #48
    newmug
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    They seriously need to cut wages in the public / semi-state sector across the board. This recession is akin to the state of the economy during WW2. Drastic action is needed to cut costs, no public servant / semi-state worker should be earning any more than E500 per week in this economic climate.


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    #49
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    newmug wrote: »
    They seriously need to cut wages in the public / semi-state sector across the board. This recession is akin to the state of the economy during WW2. Drastic action is needed to cut costs, no public servant / semi-state worker should be earning any more than E500 per week in this economic climate.

    Wouldnt that mean that they would be paying less tax ?

    Some are not happy if anyone is getting paid more than them and wont be happy until everyone is on minimum wage.


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    #50
    artybart
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭artybart


    I took the train from Sligo to Dublin for the first time yesterday. 2hours and 58 minutes to do a couple of hundred kilometers, stopping at every little village along the way. Chugging along at 10 miles per hour. Plus, they also had slow stopping trains as well as the "Fast trains" for the little villages.
    Comming back I asked at the ticket office for a ticket on the non-stop Dublin to Sligo!!!!! He said it does not exist???

    Therein lies the problem.


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    #51
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    artybart wrote: »
    I took the train from Sligo to Dublin for the first time yesterday. 2hours and 58 minutes to do a couple of hundred kilometers, stopping at every little village along the way. Chugging along at 10 miles per hour. Plus, they also had slow stopping trains as well as the "Fast trains" for the little villages.
    Comming back I asked at the ticket office for a ticket on the non-stop Dublin to Sligo!!!!! He said it does not exist???

    Therein lies the problem.
    There is only one train and it stops at several tiny halts en route. People usually have to travel miles to get to the station which is why the buses are so popular as they are not on rails and can stop in your local town centre instead of a few miles outside it.


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    #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The Cork service has really annoyed me in recent years. The 16:30 Cork to Dublin calls at all stops to Dublin - even Newbridge - which to me should be commuter rather than Intercity. The train is wholly unsuited to this sort of running, being loco hauled. They should either reduce the number of stops or put ICRs on the service to improve acceleration time. Then again, that would put more 201s on the scrap line, introducing more wastage.

    I'd like to see some Cork services stop at Limerick Junction and Mallow only.


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    #53
    newmug
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Wouldnt that mean that they would be paying less tax ?

    Some are not happy if anyone is getting paid more than them and wont be happy until everyone is on minimum wage.


    Ok I'll re-phrase - If you work for the public service / semi-state body, no matter what you currently earn, it should be taxed such that you have no more than E500 per week take-home-pay, until such time as this recession is over. The trade-off for this temporary wage reduction is your permanent job, and if you're not happy with that, take your chances in the private sector.


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    #54
    dardhal
    Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭dardhal


    I can see three main problems to the success of the rail system in Ireland:
    + Small population: after all, this is a 4.6M people country, which is smaller than most capitals in Europe. Rail infrastructures are very expensive to build, and their cost is not necessarily proportional to the population, but to distance and terrain. Building a two-lane rail bridge over a 300 meter span over a river, the bridge being 30 meter tall, is going to cost as much in Ireland as it costs in a bigger country, and yet in Ireland there are only so many taxpayers to fund it. That would mean that a bridge that has lots of economic sense in a bigger country (because it links two major cities or industrial locations), would be simply unaffordable in Ireland. So you have to forget about straight rail lines that can accommodate higher speeds, and go the longer, slower, cheaper route.
    + Lack or bad public planning. The shortcomings above may have been overcome by leveraging EU funds that were available during the good times. I guess they were exactly for that purpose. Being here for only some months I can't tell if that money was put to good use or not, probably not.
    + The most important one: urban sprawl. Let's face it, people love to live in houses rather than apartments. In towns rather than in the city center, they like to have their own grass yard in front, and even if that weren't the case, housing prices in cities were impossible for most people to afford. So you have small, tiny cities (except for Dublin and Cork, there are no cities in excess of 100,000 inhabitants, the following ones are at the 50,000 mark, or even less), which spread over tens, if not hundreds, of square kilometers. This is simply a showstopper for any kind of useful countrywide (or even commuter) rail system, that coupled with the first item, makes for any rail investment simply a black hole for money with no foreseeable return on investment, or public usefulness.

    Only Dublin could take advantage of a better commuter rail system, but the huge ratio of peak time to non-peak time passenger traffic, and urban sprawl, make it impossible for a service with the quality of that in any major European city. A rail line the size and cost of the DART between Dublin and Bray in more compact cities can serve in excess of half a million people, so service can be more frequent and cost goes down.

    "Long" distance rail in Ireland suffers from the same problem. Is there any rail line worth investing in, rather than Belfast - Dublin - Limerick - Cork. Is it worth investing money in the hundreds of millions, to build or improve a rail line between Dublin and a 50,000-people town? Not for passenger use, of course, but nor for cargo usage. Sure, electrified rail can make good use of cleaner sources of energy, which road transport can't. But can the country afford the huge investment necessary, and will that rail line pay in the longer term? Rail is quite less flexible than roads, for cargo, it is only useful for point to point transportation, but intermediate locations will have to be services by truck anyways.

    Can't see a good or viable way of "fixing" the problem at the moment. Even if the rail network had improved during the good old days, their running costs would still be very high, and either passengers would have to pay daunting prices, or prices would have to be subsidized, which is the same as saying putting taxpayers' money on something not worth the investment longer term.


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    #55
    bazza1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭bazza1


    newmug wrote: »
    Ok I'll re-phrase - If you work for the public service / semi-state body, no matter what you currently earn, it should be taxed such that you have no more than E500 per week take-home-pay, until such time as this recession is over. The trade-off for this temporary wage reduction is your permanent job, and if you're not happy with that, take your chances in the private sector.

    Brilliant!
    Tax all public servants,Nurses, Guards, Teachers etc down to €500 take home! Abolish public transport!
    Everyone in the country to go on minimum wage and work for the national collective!
    Change the countrys name to Albania circa 1970
    Are you Michael Noonan on a troll?


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    #56
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    There is only one train and it stops at several tiny halts en route. People usually have to travel miles to get to the station which is why the buses are so popular as they are not on rails and can stop in your local town centre instead of a few miles outside it.

    People tend to use the service that best suits them. If the bus was better for them then they would already be using it. Same goes for the train, it all depends on which one gets you closer to your destination at the time you want to and which is easier to get.


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    #57
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    newmug wrote: »
    Ok I'll re-phrase - If you work for the public service / semi-state body, no matter what you currently earn, it should be taxed such that you have no more than E500 per week take-home-pay, until such time as this recession is over. The trade-off for this temporary wage reduction is your permanent job, and if you're not happy with that, take your chances in the private sector.

    Better still, get those that pay no tax to start paying some.


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    #58
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    newmug wrote: »
    Ok I'll re-phrase - If you work for the public service / semi-state body, no matter what you currently earn, it should be taxed such that you have no more than E500 per week take-home-pay, until such time as this recession is over. The trade-off for this temporary wage reduction is your permanent job, and if you're not happy with that, take your chances in the private sector.

    Public servants are already getting soaked with a pensions levy for which they get nothing back, an extra tax on their permanent jobs if you like, paid bu all of them, including those below €500 a week net. My Wife is one and shortyl will be taking her chances in the Private Sector....


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    #59
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,334 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    miller50841 wrote: »
    Is there a reason for such big gaps between trains and platform?
    This is most prominent with curved platforms, in particular Tara Street, Connolly and Cork Kent. The straight carriage doesn't align well with the curved platforms, whether that is a concave or convex curve. Hence DART carriages have their doors at the quarter points, not at the ends or middle.

    At other stations, more effort should have been made to make sure the rails and platform edge work with the saloon deck height. That said, this isn't always possible as, depending on how many people are in a carriage, the suspension may sit slightly higher or lower.


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    #60
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,334 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    miller50841 wrote: »
    To us it makes sense lower prices but upstairs won't take that as an answer
    It's about yield management. Obviously, 10 passengers at €30 (total €300) is better than 200 passengers at €1 (total €200) and is better again to 1 passenger at €100 (total €100).
    davidlacey wrote: »
    This obviously means that IE are weak when it comes to lobbying or just couldnt care less
    It isn't easy for state companies to do lobbying.
    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    murphaph wrote: »
    Because the lines are generally substandard because IE never rebuilt them properly, just relaid them with new track.
    And you know this how exactly?
    Things like Malahide viaduct and the occasional embankment collapse. No serious injuries, but it impacts on the safety case and on permitted speeds.


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    #61
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    gsxr1 wrote: »
    Next thing in my opinion is instead of laying off the men on the ground, start laying off the guys who have nothing to do at the top. And who also get paid a hell of a lot more.

    It should work that way but unfortunately it doesn't because the more people they can dispense with at the 'coal face', the more they can justify their positions. I've often thought that unions should be able to do something about that one, but from my own observations of another Irish public service outfit that rationalised (and which shall remain nameless), management looked after themselves very well indeed.
    I burst my balls at all hours of the night and day on the railway for a modest wage at best. A job I love.

    And it is partially this I was referring to when I mentioned about CIE / IR doing a good job over the years. A company has two parts, management and the workforce and having worked for them in maintenance, albeit for a short while, I can assure anyone, most of the five eights I came across in Inchicore knew their stuff and in fact did an excellent job.


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