orange provocation

kryogen · 15-07-2012 10:08am

alastair wrote: »

I don't think the KKK was ever illegal.

All religions discriminate - and there's certainly members of many religious groups that promote hate. Should all religions therefore be made illegal? It's just not viable. The OO is unambiguously discriminatory, but how many of it's members actually promote hate - do they all?

That's not really the point though, it is likely that not all members of the Nazi party promoted hate yet that is what the ideals of the party was essentially.

Also, The Orange Order is not a religion so I don't see the relevance?

It is an organisation.

billybudd · 15-07-2012 10:09am

alastair wrote: »

If you're born in Belfast, you can opt to get an Irish or a UK passport. If you opt out of the Irish passport, what's actually defining you as Irish? You can justifiably point to your being from Ulster, but beyond that...?

The passport will say the united kingdom of great Britain & northern Ireland.

alastair · 15-07-2012 10:10am

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Try reading what I said. This is not about being British or Irish but on the fact that (say) Belfast is as much part of Ireland as Cork is.

Let me ease your confusion. It's a different country. Has been for quite a few years now.

Cú Giobach · 15-07-2012 10:10am

billybudd wrote: »

It is under the UK jurisdiction but resides on Irish soil. Most normal people in N.I will consider themselves Northern Irish.

Good for them but that has nothing to do with my point.

kryogen · 15-07-2012 10:11am

alastair wrote: »

If you're born in Belfast, you can opt to get an Irish or a UK passport. If you opt out of the Irish passport, what's actually defining you as Irish? You can justifiably point to your being from Ulster, but beyond that...?

What defines you as being Irish is the fact that you were born on the island of Ireland. Nothing to do with the Republic of Ireland or the Uk. Simply the land where you were born.

Beyond that it doesn't require anything further tbh.

alastair · 15-07-2012 10:11am

billybudd wrote: »

The passport will say the united kingdom of great Britain & northern Ireland.

Yep. Northern Ireland - which is unarguably a different place to that other Ireland.

alastair · 15-07-2012 10:12am

kryogen wrote: »

What defines you as being Irish is the fact that you were born on the island of Ireland. Nothing to do with the Republic of Ireland or the Uk. Simply the land where you were born.

Beyond that it doesn't require anything further tbh.

What if you were born on the island of Hispaniola? What would that make you?

kryogen · 15-07-2012 10:13am

alastair wrote: »

Let me ease your confusion. It's a different country. Has been for quite a few years now.

Yes, Belfast is part of Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom, located in Ireland.

billybudd · 15-07-2012 10:13am

alastair wrote: »

Let me ease your confusion. It's a different country. Has been for quite a few years now.

And this has got what to do with bigoty?

Jimoslimos · 15-07-2012 10:13am

alastair wrote: »

If you're born in Belfast, you can opt to get an Irish or a UK passport. If you opt out of the Irish passport, what's actually defining you as Irish? You can justifiably point to your being from Ulster, but beyond that...?

Define Irishness for me please?

alastair · 15-07-2012 10:14am

kryogen wrote: »

Yes, Belfast is part of Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom, located in Ireland.

Part of the British Isles.

alastair · 15-07-2012 10:15am

billybudd wrote: »

And this has got what to do with bigoty?

absolutely nothing.

Sunnyisland · 15-07-2012 10:15am

alastair wrote: »

Part of the British Isles.

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

kryogen · 15-07-2012 10:15am

alastair wrote: »

Yep. Northern Ireland - which is unarguably a different place to that other Ireland.

The clue is really in the title.

Northern IRELAND.

Same as the Republic of Ireland is also on the island of Ireland.

Cú Giobach · 15-07-2012 10:15am

alastair wrote: »

Let me ease your confusion. It's a different country. Has been for quite a few years now.

Ireland is Ireland irrespective of who governs which parts.
In a hypothetical situation where half of England leaves the Union which would be the "Real England"?? The part that continues with the status quo or the part that changes?? Or is the concept quite silly.

billybudd · 15-07-2012 10:16am

alastair wrote: »

Yep. Northern Ireland - which is unarguably a different place to that other Ireland.

There is only one Ireland.

kryogen · 15-07-2012 10:18am

alastair wrote: »

Part of the British Isles.

Atlantic Archipelago is increasingly favoured in academia

.

billybudd · 15-07-2012 10:18am

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Good for them but that has nothing to do with my point.

I was agreeing with you, as in Irish people from the northern part of Ireland.

TommyPolack · 15-07-2012 10:20am

kryogen wrote: »

What kind of past events? Does that extend to any group?

I read only few books about British and Irish history and I am not an expert, but one I can say.
I am thinking out loud now.
Germans are not celebrating invasion of Poland, American have no celebration of Vietnam War...hmmm... it looks like NI is the only place where occupier celebrate conquering foreign country.
IF Brits have a celebration where they are celebrating successful DEFENCE of their own motherland, it would be a very positive and educational experience.
Is it “colonialism” bursting in my face? Looks like it and I hope I am wrong.
Don’t get me wrong. IT IS NOT MY CONFLICT and I LOVE BELFAST. That is why I took action. But I can say that from the “outside of the box” this is a silly situation.
Loyalists are offending other Nationalities and expect to “wash it off”. Members of my family died defending our flag and independence and no Brit will burn our flags in front of our eyes during biggest annual celebrations.
Whoever did it is out of his mind.

Answering your question – I don’t think that Orange Institution picked “Neutral” past event to celebrate and if this is not enough, Protestants do everything they can to humiliate people who have no British passport.
So childish...

Cú Giobach · 15-07-2012 10:20am

billybudd wrote: »

I was agreeing with you, as in Irish people from the northern part of Ireland.

OK.

But I am staying clear of the topic of nationality.

billybudd · 15-07-2012 10:21am

Cú Giobach wrote: »

OK.
But I am staying clear of the topic of nationality.

So was I.

alastair · 15-07-2012 10:21am

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Ireland is Ireland irrespective of who governs which parts.
In a hypothetical situation where half of England leaves the Union which would be the "Real England"?? The part that continues with the status quo or the part that changes?? Or is the concept quite silly.

Cornwall remains cornish for many, even though it's part of England - it's the 'real' Cornwall because the Cornish people self identify as such. Wrexham is part of Wales, but used to be part of England (iirc), so is it really Welsh or English?

Bottom line - if you live in a state which is independent of a neighbour, and you don't hold to the cultural heritage of that neighbour, it's not unexpected that you would want to distinguish your identity from them, is it?

Cú Giobach · 15-07-2012 10:22am

billybudd wrote: »

So was I.

Lets go for a pint then

billybudd · 15-07-2012 10:24am

TommyPolack wrote: »

I read only few books about British and Irish history and I am not an expert, but one I can say.
I am thinking out loud now.
Germans are not celebrating invasion of Poland, American have no celebration of Vietnam War...hmmm... it looks like NI is the only place where occupier celebrate conquering foreign country.
IF Brits have a celebration where they are celebrating successful DEFENCE of their own motherland, it would be a very positive and educational experience.
Is it “colonialism” bursting in my face? Looks like it and I hope I am wrong.
Don’t get me wrong. IT IS NOT MY CONFLICT and I LOVE BELFAST. That is why I took action. But I can say that from the “outside of the box” this is a silly situation.
Loyalists are offending other Nationalities and expect to “wash it off”. Members of my family died defending our flag and independence and no Brit will burn our flags in front of our eyes during biggest annual celebrations.
Whoever did it is out of his mind.

Answering your question – I don’t think that Orange Institution picked “Neutral” past event to celebrate and if this is not enough, Protestants do everything they can to humiliate people who have no British passport.
So childish...

Some do Tommy and they are bigots and actually have nothing to do with religion, Most protestants on this island just want to live in peace. don,t let a minority of bigots cloud your view.

alastair · 15-07-2012 10:26am

TommyPolack wrote: »

it looks like NI is the only place where occupier celebrate conquering foreign country..

Again - the 12th isn't about celebrating conquering any foreign country. Try reading up on it.

Cú Giobach · 15-07-2012 10:32am

alastair wrote: »

Cornwall remains cornish for many, even though it's part of England - it's the 'real' Cornwall because the Cornish people self identify as such. Wrexham is part of Wales, but used to be part of England (iirc), so is it really Welsh or English?

Bottom line - if you live in a state which is independent of a neighbour, and you don't hold to the cultural heritage of that neighbour, it's not unexpected that you would want to distinguish your identity from them, is it?

People can call themselves or identify with whatever they like, it wont change the fact of where they were born or the name of the place where they live.
Did my Grandfather suddenly stop being "from Ireland" on 6 December 1922??

TommyPolack · 15-07-2012 10:34am

billybudd wrote: »

Some do Tommy and they are bigots and actually have nothing to do with religion, Most protestants on this island just want to live in peace. don,t let a minority of bigots cloud your view.

In Belfast I met people from the ENTIRE World - China, India, Germany, France, Zimbabwe, Slovakia, Russia, Latvia…
99% people I know (Brits, Irish and other) are amazing, friendly and I have a lot of respect for all of them and I would NEVER do anything to offend them. Especially, when I am a “host” of their visit.
There are BAD apples in UK basket, grown up kids, people who think that Britain is at the center of the Universe, who think that they can get away with crimes (let’s call burning flags the way it is described), who want everything for nothing (I had a company in here ;/ ).
I only hope that this conversation will help them to understand that such a weird behavior of grownups is simply WRONG compared to EU / Western World / World arena.

alastair · 15-07-2012 10:35am

Cú Giobach wrote: »

People can call themselves or identify with whatever they like, it wont change the fact of where they were born or the name of the place where they live.
Did my Grandfather suddenly stop being "from Ireland" on 6 December 1922??

Did Slovaks stop being from Czechoslovakia in '92? I'd say they did.

billybudd · 15-07-2012 10:36am

alastair wrote: »

Yep. Northern Ireland - which is unarguably a different place to that other Ireland.

Donegal & cavan to name but a few ulster & Norther ireland parts?

kryogen · 15-07-2012 10:36am

alastair wrote: »

Again - the 12th isn't about celebrating conquering any foreign country. Try reading up on it.

No the 12th is about celebrating the Battle of the Boyne.

What happened there exactly? No conquering?

orange provocation

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