Mass Effect 3: The Ending(s) [ Spoilers ]

Ian7 · 23-04-2012 7:22pm

noodler wrote: »

As was I. There is a moment when you are walking around the London camp where you can overhear a radio transmission on each of the individual Hammer squads and whether or not they made it

Ah sorry, I must have missed that bit. Does he mention the status of all squads? Or is he just naming individual squads?

noodler wrote: »

It seems to be a fixed variable.

noodler · 23-04-2012 7:39pm

Ian7 wrote: »

Ah sorry, I must have missed that bit. Does he mention the status of all squads? Or is he just naming individual squads?

It goes on for quite a while if you wait long enough but some British Woman says that Squad X had a 50% mortality rate, then squad Y had a 70% rate etc then the last squad had mortality of 100%.

Ian7 wrote: »

I mean I think its always 50%.

Eggy Baby! · 23-04-2012 8:16pm

To use a comparison. I very strongly disliked the epilogue to Harry Potter, which I thought was a poorly-written and misguided conclusion to an otherwise perfectly enjoyable tale: one that was several thousand pages long and cost me a hundred euro or so to experience. I did not write to JK Rowling demanding she changed it, because that would be unreasonable. Indeed, I respect her right to handle it the way she did, as it is after all her story rather than mine.

Again, Mass Effect is different to Harry Potter in that it is interactive. Harry Potter is one fixed story. Mass Effect is several fixed possible stories. As a game which markets itself on game-defining choices, it should have lived up to that.

Ian7 · 23-04-2012 9:21pm

At this stage, this whole argument which is focused solely on ME is moot as Bioware are releasing the DLC now anyway without changing the ending.
If you think about it, they haven't really caved in to fan pressure. If the DLC is merely extra scenes without altering the existing plot line then their "artistic integrity" is preserved.

Planned or not planned, i really believe Bioware will deliver the goods with the DLC, they have a lot riding on it now having taking the plunge and announcing it. It would be pointless for them not to release something substantial.

Funny how they are able to turn a piece of DLC around in the space of three months though when it took 2+ months just to fix the face import bug, don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but.....:P

Eggy Baby! · 23-04-2012 9:45pm

Planned or not planned, i really believe Bioware will deliver the goods with the DLC, they have a lot riding on it now having taking the plunge and announcing it. It would be pointless for them not to release something substantial.

tbh, it will be a miracle if they pull this off.

hooradiation · 23-04-2012 11:57pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I wouldn't trust anything developers say.

Well, if you want to pretend you know better, who am I to argue with a self appointed Internet expert....

Retr0gamer · 24-04-2012 1:21am

I'm just saying a bit of healthy skepticism instead of trusting every word from someone that has a vested interest in making you believe in what they say is better than hanging on their every word. You wouldn't trust a politician towing the party line and in the same manner I wouldn't fully trust a developer that won't say won't say anything that could damage his employers interests or affect sales because that's what matters at the end of the day. They're hardly impartial.

Ian7 · 24-04-2012 10:05am

noodler wrote: »

I mean I think its always 50%.

Yeah I think that is the max %. Seemingly it is actually lower if your EMS is low though. I like those little bits in the game but I wish we could actually see the results instead of being told numbers.

Also, do you see the angle I'm coming at though? If indoctrination theory is true, there would possibly need to be some ground forces remaining to help Shepard.

This is a wild dream, but I'd love to see the Krogan charging down Harbinger on Kakliosaurs and the Elcor firing from the back lines with their back mounted guns. doubt we'll see anything of the sort though.

hooradiation · 24-04-2012 10:16am

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm just saying a bit of healthy skepticism instead of trusting every word from someone that has a vested interest in making you believe in what they say is better than hanging on their every word. You wouldn't trust a politician towing the party line and in the same manner I wouldn't fully trust a developer that won't say won't say anything that could damage his employers interests or affect sales because that's what matters at the end of the day. They're hardly impartial.

Healthy scepticism my arse, it's bullshit and you know it.

You're not 'trusting' them simply because of who you imagine they are and nothing else. You have no damn idea how games are made in the slightest, but you're willing to hold a contrarian viewpoint because otherwise you'd be listening to those damn sneaky developers.
It's the same line of thought that conspiracy theorists use to justify 9/11 was an inside job or whatever, the alternative must be true because otherwise you're just listening to them and you can't do that, apparently.

Ian7 · 24-04-2012 10:33am

ou, someone touched a nerve.

gizmo · 24-04-2012 10:36am

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm just saying a bit of healthy skepticism instead of trusting every word from someone that has a vested interest in making you believe in what they say is better than hanging on their every word. You wouldn't trust a politician towing the party line and in the same manner I wouldn't fully trust a developer that won't say won't say anything that could damage his employers interests or affect sales because that's what matters at the end of the day. They're hardly impartial.

There's a fine line between a healthy dose of scepticism and thinking one knows better though. You said it best yourself earlier in fact, it's never as simple as it appears, especially when dealing with publisher announcements. Maintaining such a cynical stance even when faced with a perfectly logical explanation for a certain feature or decision, however, is what will generally irk some people.

hooradiation · 24-04-2012 10:37am

Ian7 wrote: »

ou, someone touched a nerve.

hardly.

johnny_ultimate · 24-04-2012 10:42am

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Again, Mass Effect is different to Harry Potter in that it is interactive. Harry Potter is one fixed story. Mass Effect is several fixed possible stories. As a game which markets itself on game-defining choices, it should have lived up to that.

I think in that regard it succeeds up until the last ten minutes, much like Harry Potter succeeds up until the last ten pages, but I'm not of the opinion that interactivity skews the argument as you're still experiencing an author's pre-defined story / stories. Both are examples of good stories that IMO simply fail to deliver a well considered ending. Doesn't undo the good that came before. If it's merely the ending - and by ending, we're referring to the last ten minutes, the three-way choice, and the final cutscenes - you take umbrage with, than shouldn't you take solace in the I'm presuming otherwise satisfactory 75 hours of storytelling and gameplay that came before it?

Retr0gamer · 24-04-2012 11:16am

hooradiation wrote: »

You're not 'trusting' them simply because of who you imagine they are and nothing else. You have no damn idea how games are made in the slightest, but you're willing to hold a contrarian viewpoint because otherwise you'd be listening to those damn sneaky developers.

Not holding any contrarian viewpoints at all. Read my post next time before making accusations. Maybe it's from doing science all these years but I never jump to conclusions about anything unless it comes from an impartial source or I hear both sides of the story with evidence.

hooradiation wrote: »

It's the same line of thought that conspiracy theorists use to justify 9/11 was an inside job or whatever, the alternative must be true because otherwise you're just listening to them and you can't do that, apparently.

Bahahaha! You're going to bring up the nazi's next right?

hooradiation · 24-04-2012 11:33am

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Not holding any contrarian viewpoints at all. Read my post next time before making accusations. Maybe it's from doing science all these years but I never jump to conclusions about anything unless it comes from an impartial source or I hear both sides of the story with evidence.

Which is why your amazing science skills have led you to state that "[you] wouldn't trust anything developers say." (emphasis mine)

That's some top quality work there. The model of the scientific method.
I hope you put a bit more effort into the actual science you do, for your employers sake.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Bahahaha! You're going to bring up the nazi's next right?

Why would I, what do Nazis have to do with you pretending you know what you're talking about?

Retr0gamer · 24-04-2012 11:44am

That's not science, I'm just suggesting that the word of someone that is under contract and has his employment at stake isn't impartial. You're probably right in this case but it's more the way you state your opinions as cold hard facts even when there's not much to back it up that is abrasive and causing trouble here. You can have a discussion here even with some one who is blatantly wrong without acting like that.

Eggy Baby! · 24-04-2012 12:08pm

Doesn't undo the good that came before. If it's merely the ending

Agreed. I saw a poll on the Bioware Social Network which was titled: "Were you satisfied with Mass Effect 3?"

85% said no, they weren't.

When I looked at the comments, 99% of those who commented and who were not satisfied said "It was because of the ending, but the rest of the game was great".

That's some top quality work there. The model of the scientific method.

Nice sarcasm, that's really adding to your argument.

No, I insist.

So now you're comparing people who call into question EA's business practices to Troothers? There's a reason why they were voted worst company in America, ahead of Nazi Ger- I mean, Bank of America. And it wasn't just because of the Mass Effect 3 ending. It's because their business practices generally suck. So yeah, its totally reasonable (to them, not to the consumer) that they should rip segments out of the game and have them sold as overpriced DLC. Totally reasonable.

It's the same line of thought that conspiracy theorists use to justify 9/11 was an inside job or whatever, the alternative must be true because otherwise you're just listening to them and you can't do that, apparently.

On a side note, the American government are hardly believable...these are the guys that told us there were WMDs in Iraq and there are currently some in Iran. But that's for the politics forum.

ou're probably right in this case but it's more the way you state your opinions as cold hard facts even when there's not much to back it up that is abrasive and causing trouble here. You can have a discussion here even with some one who is blatantly wrong without acting like that.

I agree. IMO, hooradiation's tone is getting a bit obnoxious.

degrassinoel · 24-04-2012 12:11pm

no matter how many times i play through i just cant.. cant cannot kill mordin..

It's too hard, he's just far too awesome, see for yourself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXiU6kiq_Ms

HOW, anyone could possibly kill him in ME3 is beyond me

Kiith · 24-04-2012 12:17pm

degrassinoel wrote: »

HOW, anyone could possibly kill him in ME3 is beyond me

I agree. You really have to be going out of your way to be a total dick to choose shooting him over helping him.

hooradiation · 24-04-2012 12:23pm

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

So now you're comparing people who call into question EA's business practices to Troothers?

No, just pointing out how flawed Retr0's reasoning was. Unsurprisingly, providing an example of similarly woolly thinking went over both your heads.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

There's a reason why they were voted worst company in America, ahead of Nazi Ger- I mean, Bank of America.

Yeah, that was a profoundly stupid moment, even for the internet.
I'm not surprised you believe it constitutes some kind of validation though.

And more amazingly, that it somehow validates your idea that contrary to everything "from ashes" was a massive scam of some sort. Because game content never got cut before the advent of DLC. Or something.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

On a side note, the American government are hardly believable...these are the guys that told us there were WMDs in Iraq and there are currently some in Iran. But that's for the politics forum.

The point, because labouring it excessively seems to be the only way it can be made around these parts, is that taking one 'side' of an issue and flat out stating "I wouldn't trust anything they say" is a bad thing. If you're supposed to be a sane, rational person then examining both sides before making a call is the very least you could do.

Stating things like "I wouldn't trust anything developers say" shows that there is no interest in anything but maintaining the conclusions that have already been drawn.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

I agree. IMO, hooradiation's tone is getting a bit obnoxious.

Good.

degrassinoel wrote: »

no matter how many times i play through i just cant.. cant cannot kill mordin..

Shot him like a dog. He was in the way.

degrassinoel · 24-04-2012 12:30pm

hooradiation wrote: »

Shot him like a dog. He was in the way.

surprisingly, not surprised. You seem to me to have a streak of reptilian in you rivaling that of any Salarian.

johnny_ultimate · 24-04-2012 12:41pm

Have to agree with hooradiation on the Worst Company in America bull****. Goes to show a group of embittered fanboys (and in this case, yes, I'm going with the descriptor fanboys, as I doubt anyone reasonable could possible vote for EA over various other companies) with a chip on their shoulder can blow things out of all proportion. How bitterness over a good videogame's bad ending and some questionable but easily ignorable DLC practices put it in the same league as a company that helped bring down the world economy and ruined thousands (millions?) of lives is anyone's guess. Pretty telling that the campaign in favour of EA's admirable, forward-thinking stance in the face of childish and homophobic 'criticisms' (ahem) was all but ignored. And then there's the question of how EA themselves were in anyway responsible for the storytelling failures of Bioware? That seems like a question too logical for the poll participants, alas. Not saying EA are the model of business etiquette, but they have in recent years shown themselves to have purposefully distanced themselves from the shovelware factory of old: focusing on quality over quantity, and a continued encouragement of new IPs that risked commercial disaster, from Mirror's Edge to Shadows of the Damned (even giving Dead Space a second go-around despite poor initial sales: a gamble that paid many dividends).

It's a bad ending to a videogame. That's all, and some of the more extreme reactions are completely out of line with reality.

Kiith · 24-04-2012 12:49pm

The worst company thing was an online poll wasn't it? Of course EA was going to 'win' it after the ME3 ending, as people in their tousands/tens of thousands who were pissed off at the stupid the ending was, and had an easy avenue to complain.

I very much doubt the vast majority of people actually think EA are worse then BoA.

pixelburp · 24-04-2012 12:54pm

Jeez this thread's beginning to go around in circles, I'm sure I read the same stuff pages & pages back.

Oh and everyone knows the worst gaming company is Ubisoft, not EA

Retr0gamer · 24-04-2012 1:03pm

Capcom are getting pretty high up in my list as well. I wouldn't really put EA anywhere near the top of the worst companies ever, even for videogames companies. A few years ago maybe but they've turned themselves around. Bioware are just coming off badly by this because the PR are struggling to deal wiht what has happened. I can't blame them really either, I wouldn't have had a contingency plan for this kind of over reaction. The whole affair is pretty embarassing when you sum up what the whole thing over like johnny_ultimate did; a bit of bad writing from a company not exactly known for good writing. As far as I can see it, they tried something different and messed up. If you enjoyed the game up to that point then I don't see the problem.

hightower1 · 24-04-2012 1:11pm

hooradiation wrote: »

Why would I, what do Nazis have to do with you pretending you know what you're talking about?

He is referrng to Godwins law stating that as the length of an online discussion contiues the likely hood of one person being accused o being a Nazi or a racist of some form increased expenetially.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

johnny_ultimate · 24-04-2012 1:12pm

Also: Activision. Telling how many once Activision employees have migrated to EA.

noodler · 24-04-2012 1:30pm

So assuming nobody knows for sure the development process:

- Developer is a vested interest
- No accountability (you never ever know if From Ashes was part of the game that was cut out or not, you simply have to take their word)
- The way Javik is engrained in the story makes it quite quite ambigous (at best) as to whether or not he was part of the game)
- If developers use the "developed alongside the game" argument then we will never be able to assess the truth to the statement.

I still think based on the above (which I would say are factually) that it remains necessary to have a quite a high degree od scepticism on what the developer or publisher says.

Eggy Baby! · 24-04-2012 1:55pm

HOW, anyone could possibly kill him in ME3 is beyond me

I drew the gun on him, but didn't hit the Renegade prompt. He goes up the lift and Shepard walks away, throwing his gun into a corner. Epic stuff.

IMO, however, ME2>ME3>ME1.

Have to agree with hooradiation on the Worst Company in America bull****.

Wouldn't people blame Bioware for the ending and not EA?

Admittedly the Mass effect ending for some reason or another focused anger on EA. There are ME fans who believe EA is destroying the franchise. I disagree. ME2 was the best, IMO. And EA published that too. Also, From Ashes was very good, if overpriced. And if the DLC was meant to be in the game initially (which it probably was) we still get a huge value for money with ME3. It's 30-ish hours long and has great multiplayer. BUT that doesn't erase the often annoying business practices of EA. And they're not the worst company in America, honestly. There are far worse companies out there. Hell, they're not even the worst gaming company.

But of course, people who buy EA-published used games and have to fork out the cash for online passes might disagree with me. Not like they're the only ones that do it, however. Plus, people might find the EA cash cow FIFA franchise a little despicable, but I don't really care about that.

And I was very satisfied with ME3. Hopefully they can turn this ending thing around because the game is perfect up to that point.

I very much doubt the vast majority of people actually think EA are worse then BoA.

No matter how bad EA are, I don't think that they've ever brought out a foreclosure on someone's house.

That's all, and some of the more extreme reactions are completely out of line with reality.

I disagree with the guy who went to the Federal Trade Bureau and the death threats.

Retake Mass Effect, although they do come off as over-entitled fanboys, did raise a hell of a lot of money for Child's Play. Which makes them Paragons in my book.

(even giving Dead Space a second go-around despite poor initial sales: a gamble that paid many dividends)

My friend has Dead Space 2 and although he found the singleplayer great, he believes that the multiplayer felt tacked-on and is convinced EA had something to do with it. Although everyone decried the prospect of multi in Mass Effect 3, it is bloody great fun (although I disagree with some design decisions, like the randomized unlock packs).

You seem to me to have a streak of reptilian in you rivaling that of any Salarian.

"They used to eat flies".

Doesn't Javik have a Nigerian accent?

hooradiation · 24-04-2012 1:56pm

degrassinoel wrote: »

surprisingly, not surprised. You seem to me to have a streak of reptilian in you rivaling that of any Salarian.

It was a renegade run!
And I'm certain you think that was clever, so I'll let it slide.

Mass Effect 3: The Ending(s) [** Spoilers **]

Comments

Mass Effect 3: The Ending(s) [ Spoilers ]