Mass Effect 3: The Ending(s) [ Spoilers ]

Eggy Baby! · 22-04-2012 11:23pm

I take it back but nobody gave a **** about F3's main storyline - it was almost irrelevant.

Liam Neeson and Malcolm McDowell didn't think so...

I only played through and finished Fallout 3 late last year, and i can't really remember what it was about tbh.

Had a good storyline. Mainly about securing fresh water to the wasteland. Pretty realistic considering the game was filled with giant crab-things and mutant bears. I do admit that it was a little bit badly done, animation-wise. Who can forget Colonel Autumn doing the robot in the radiation chamber when your dad sacrifices himself? Which is also a very badly done moment. I mean, come on, its your dad dying! And the character just stands there frozen.

But as a disciple in the Indoctrination Theory, what I actually believe is that Shephard was waking up from being knocked out whilst assaulting the teleportation beam on Earth.

Me too.

It'd be better than the current one alright, but they'd have plenty of plot holes to fill for it to make sense as the game currently is.

Like what?

Being on the Citadel while it explodes and furthermore, having to reenter Earth's atmosphere, presumably, like a dog clinging to a piece of driftwood going over Niagara Falls, is not something that one could survive.

A dog clinging to a piece of exploding driftwood would be more likely.

Eggy Baby! · 22-04-2012 11:28pm

Two questions:

1: Would a DLC introducing a Batarian squaddie interest you guys (after the ending dlc of course)

2: What enemy faction is the easiest to beat in multiplayer? My guess would be the Geth.

Gbear · 22-04-2012 11:43pm

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Two questions:

1: Would a DLC introducing a Batarian squaddie interest you guys (after the ending dlc of course)

YES! Batarians are badasses. Well.. hmm.. again.. it's the Mass Effect version of badass where badass doesn't mean generally cool but rather that you endorse genocide and slavery.

Still, it'd be good.

I don't like that they just glossed over the extinction of the Batarians. They were such a dark and mysterious bunch with their web of secrecy. It would've been nice to do something like "priority Kar'shan - resuce Batarian government".

noodler · 22-04-2012 11:47pm

I'm not interested in paying 10 euro for one mission and a squadmate.

It has to be a bit more than that.

As it turns out, Jarik was probably worth it. And some of the extra information he provided at certain sections of the game was quite enlightening (the mian one being the events at Thessia - I can't imagine that section without Jarik).

Although, in truth, the intertwined nature of Jarik into the story probably just highlights that he was really part of the main game and cut out and sold as DLC.

EDIT: OR Javik.

Eggy Baby! · 22-04-2012 11:54pm

I don't like that they just glossed over the extinction of the Batarians. They were such a dark and mysterious bunch with their web of secrecy. It would've been nice to do something like "priority Kar'shan - resuce Batarian government".

They weren't all killed off, but Hackett mentions that their government (and possibly empire) is "history". Personally Balak (from Bring Down the Sky) would be a good choice if he was still alive in people's games as he and Shep have history and they could spend the whole game finally understanding each other for who they are and what they want. It would also fit in with the games themes of unity (Quarians and Geth working together...who knew?) and remember the galvanisation of the Geth when Legion was introduced? Everyone had a soft spot for them when that stunt was pulled. Otherwise the "Geth are misunderstood" twist wouldn't have been believable.

YES! Batarians are badasses. Well.. hmm.. again.. it's the Mass Effect version of badass where badass doesn't mean generally cool but rather that you endorse genocide and slavery.

Personally I love the aesthetic of the Batarians online and I love the play style involved with them. The crew is missing a Vanguardish type squaddie and a Batarian could fill that niche.

Also, only their government endorses slavery. We have yet to see the opinions of its citizens, who I presume are scattered all over the place after the Reapers hit. And humans endorsed slavery for thousands of years. Also, Javik endorses genocide and slavery!

Also, Batarians are the only major alien race (that is feasible to implement) that has not been represented in Shepard's crew at any point during the three games.

As it turns out, Jarik was probably worth it.

He was a good character BUT the DLC was overpriced. Way overpriced. Zaeed offered slightly more and it was free launch DLC. 800 points is way to expensive for a generic shooting mission with two achievements, some cutscenes, a new squaddie, some new appearances and some unique dialogue.

Also, Javik needed a loyalty mission. ME2's loyalty missions really made me feel engrossed in the characters.

I'm not interested in paying 10 euro for one mission and a squadmate.

I'm suggesting free DLC, however.

gizmo · 23-04-2012 2:11am

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Its not a precedent- this stunt has been pulled many, many times. Asura's Wrath, Prince of Persia, Fallout 3...and FO3 Broken Steel added a lot of gameplay after the ending as well as new features.

While I've yet to play FO3 so can't comment on that, in neither of the other two cases was the post-release DLC a "stunt" of the same caliber as Mass Effect 3 is being made out to be. The games had a very definite ending and were, had the DLC not been released, absolutely complete as presented on-disc. From what I've seen online, the majority of the people who are complaining about these two games in particular are those who haven't even played them.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Also, Javik needed a loyalty mission. ME2's loyalty missions really made me feel engrossed in the characters.

I'd be quite surprised if they've not planned for such a mission, probably in the form of a journey to find his buried squad mates whom he mentions when he touches the echo shard.

Ian7 · 23-04-2012 9:25am

We have covered quite a bit in this thread while dissecting the ending, however there is one section near the end that seems to be overlooked...

When you meet Anderson and Major Coats in the building they are discussing "Hammer's" strength and what percentage has made it to earth. My question for you guys is what percentage did Anderson say for you and do you think this is directly related to the Effective Military Strength. If it turns out that everyone hears Anderson saying the same number regardless of your higher EMS then I think there could be more to it.

I had 4000+ EMS going into the end and Anderson stated that barely 50% of Hammer had made it to earth. While these two figures are roughly the same, I want to know what people with 5000+ EMS heard.

Also, what's up with that Major Coats guy? He gets a fully rendered pre-release trailer but only briefly appears in the game? I don't see how we could get a pre-ending DLC involving this guy either. Seems as if some more material involving him was cut or deliberately left out. Unless they just wanted to flesh out the Military a bit, possibly to give the feeling that there is more fighting for earth other than Shepard, Anderson and Hackett.

P.S. When I say there may be more to it I mean, if everyone hears Anderson saying 50% then what are the remaining 50% doing? Could it be that they are only landing while the first wave are advancing toward the beam or afterwards even? (When Shepard wakes up he may need a bit of an Army like.)

hooradiation · 23-04-2012 11:31am

Ian7 wrote: »

P.S. When I say there may be more to it I mean, if everyone hears Anderson saying 50% then what are the remaining 50% doing?

They're busy being dead.

noodler · 23-04-2012 11:43am

hooradiation wrote: »

They're busy being dead.

Ehh yeah this to be honest.

If you listen to the guy on the radio in London he is clearly implying (with the percentages) that x% made it (or survived) - not that they just stopped or ran away scared!

I believe for the company with 100% casualties the phrase 'wiped out' is used.

Eggy Baby! · 23-04-2012 12:23pm

Also, what's up with that Major Coats guy? He gets a fully rendered pre-release trailer but only briefly appears in the game?

Because camping in Big Ben for three days sniping husks makes you an instant badass anyway.

They're busy being dead.

Nobody's quite sure but presumably they are. Or else they got lost and landed somewhere else, maybe?

While I've yet to play FO3 so can't comment on that, in neither of the other two cases was the post-release DLC a "stunt" of the same caliber as Mass Effect 3 is being made out to be.

Looking back on it now, Broken Steel wasn't that big of a stunt. All they did was keep the same ending, but extended the gameplay a bit further afterwards. So you essentially woke up after "dying" (which had been the case before and the game simply ended when that happened) and pursued the bad guys for a bit more in post-ending missions. Then, when that was done, you got to play perpetually! As opposed to your game ending before the DLC was installed. Basically they listened to fan feedback and fans were pissed off that the character died and the game ended (in an RPG no less) so Bethesda decided to develop Broken Steel. It also added other stuff, like weapons, armours, sidemissions, new locations, creatures and raised the level cap. It was a pretty unprecedented DLC.

In Fallout New Vegas however, the game ended when the main quest was beaten, and its going to stay that way (basically depending on your ending the final battle has huge societal repercussions, but I'm not going to get into that).

I actually recommend buying Fallout 3. Buy the GOTY edition because the DLC is quite good, but Broken Steel is the necessary minimum, because it adds so much, but the others are also good. New Vegas was alright. To some people it was a buggy mess and I hit a few annoying bugs here and there, plus the DLC for the most part is rubbish. The DLC for FO3 adds about 20-25 hours of gameplay, I think.

Although Bethesda listening to fan feedback and extending (not changing) the ending of FO3 is definitely a good precedent. People who don't want their ending extended, don't have to buy the DLC. Simple as. (It was 800 points btw)

johnny_ultimate · 23-04-2012 12:43pm

Frankly, if the ending was purposefully left off the disc it's a fairly shocking precedent and a dark day for artistic integrity (not that, as a gamer, I've come to expect that particular luxury). I don't like the idea that something was knowingly incomplete when shipped. However, everything I've seen suggests Bioware was caught off guard and are desperately trying to placate the fans. Personally, I don't feel strongly enough about the game to play through the repetitive final stretch again just to see an extended cutscene. Youtube it is.

I also think the Indoctrination theory is a fairly desperate effort to cover-up the shortcomings of the ending as is. It fits, fair enough, but even if it was Bioware intention its poor implementation in terms of storytelling and execution renders any good intentions moot. Personally, I'm going to be a cynic and suggest that if they do ultimately accept the theory in the epilogue, it'll simply be them trying to cover their asses. As said, the often obnoxious fan reaction does not seem to have been part of the plan.

Eggy Baby! · 23-04-2012 1:41pm

I don't like the idea that something was knowingly incomplete when shipped.

Considering the likelihood that From Ashes was ripped from the disk and sold as launch DLC, this idea has possibly already been fulfilled.

It fits, fair enough, but even if it was Bioware intention its poor implementation in terms of storytelling and execution renders any good intentions moot.

What do you mean by 'its poor implementation'? The point is to not let the gamer know that they are being indoctrinated...

As said, the often obnoxious fan reaction does not seem to have been part of the plan.

It was not mostly obnoxious. Considering fans have invested hundreds of dollars/euros/whatever individually into the series, and spent huge amounts of hours playing each installment, not to mention DLC. As customers they have every right to voice their hatred of the ending, and express their desire to have it changed/extended/turned into indoctrination.

Personally, I don't feel strongly enough about the game to play through the repetitive final stretch again just to see an extended cutscene.

Me too, unless it is indoctrination.

However, everything I've seen suggests Bioware was caught off guard and are desperately trying to placate the fans.

They should have expected it, however, considering they changed the original, much more fitting ending for this self-contradictory, trichromate tripe of a finale.

Personally, I'm going to be a cynic and suggest that if they do ultimately accept the theory in the epilogue, it'll simply be them trying to cover their asses.

Either that or they meant it all along. Nobody really knows. Hence Indoctrination 'Theory'.

and a dark day for artistic integrity

Here we go again with 'artistic integrity', lol.

If they had such 'artistic integrity', they wouldn't have changed the ending in the first place after it was leaked. Clearly 'artistic integrity' blah blah blah has already been thrown out the window. What's stopping them changing it again? Except obviously they announced it will remain as it is.

Gbear · 23-04-2012 1:58pm

Ian7 wrote: »

I had 4000+ EMS going into the end and Anderson stated that barely 50% of Hammer had made it to earth. While these two figures are roughly the same, I want to know what people with 5000+ EMS heard.

I had about 8000. It's still the same.

Lots of hammer were destroyed. You even see some of them getting shot down when there's a big load of shuttles.

johnny_ultimate · 23-04-2012 2:01pm

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

What do you mean by 'its poor implementation'? The point is to not let the gamer know that they are being indoctrinated...

Because, Indoctrination Theory or not, it's still bad storytelling as is. The game never makes it clear what is happening, and while I'm all for a bit of narrative ambiguity, the hints are too vague and contradictory to be considered well handled. Even if IT is true (and I couldn't give two ****s if it is or isn't, frankly) then the Star Child, outflying an explosion and jungle planet nonsense remain nonsense.

If the IT is true, it could have made for a fantastic revelation at the end of the game. That it isn't there suggests to me it was never the intention at all. If it is, then Bioware lacked the basic storytelling talent to pull off such a trick. If you've played Braid, then you know the ending to the game is quite revelatory, putting a new and exciting spin on the seemingly simple story that preceded it. Bioshock also pulled the rug out with convincing results. Bioware could have pulled off such a trick here, but instead put in a turgid ending that by all accounts a player who isn't into reading overly detailed Internet analysis would have presumed was final.

I like games, films, TV shows, whatever to stand alone on their own merits as convincing 'wholes'. Mass Effect 3 is not that, and even with the potential Indoctrination explanation, what we currently have is a crap ending to a disappointing game, and no amount of non-interactive DLC is going to change that. Paid DLC would merely rub salt in the wounds. Unless they manage to pull off something like End of Evangelion (the inspired movie 'retelling' of the TV series' ambiguous ending). But, going by the evidence, I think that's wholly outside of Bioware's ability.

ShooterSF · 23-04-2012 2:20pm

Just finished the game yesterday and had stayed away from all the spoilers. I enjoyed it though I do wish you got more REAL options at the end. And I didn't even want a happy ending. I wanted Shepard to have to Sacrifice himself but on his own terms with no guarantee of what outcome would happen. I would have loved an ending in the Citidal where I had to hold off the husks in that slowmo shooting style while Anderson works the Control Panel with me being overwhelmed just after I had given him enough time. Something like that would have left me happy as a consumer and sad as an experiencer.

Edit - Then I'd want plenty of cut scenes after the war was over that were different depending on my actions over the 3 games...

AnCapaillMor · 23-04-2012 2:29pm

Playing the witcher games at the moment and they seriously put this and any other bioware games to shame, decisions throughout the game have consequenses that involve something more than different colours. The more i play the witcher the more the ME3 ending begins to knaw at me.

hooradiation · 23-04-2012 2:37pm

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Considering the likelihood that From Ashes was ripped from the disk and sold as launch DLC, this idea has possibly already been fulfilled.

That likelihood only exists if you really, really want to believe that in the face of everything else telling you that you're wrong.

Which is to say, not at all.

Retr0gamer · 23-04-2012 3:52pm

hooradiation wrote: »

That likelihood only exists if you really, really want to believe that in the face of everything else telling you that you're wrong.

Which is to say, not at all.

I wouldn't trust anything developers say. We got the same spiel from Eidos and Crystal Dynamics about the DLC for Tomb Raider Underworld until developers that were dumped off contract revealed that the DLC sections were cut from the game late in development to be used as DLC. Then there's assassins creed 2; the official line there is that the DLC was developed seperately....

I'm pretty sure EA planned to have that DLC from day one and directed resources from it but I still think it's pretty gullible to totally believe developers that are under contract. I'm pretty sure telling people that content was cut to be sold on is not going to do a lot of good for said developers employment prospects. I wouldn't say there's conclusive proof either way and it's not as simple as both you two are making it out to be.

I still think day one dlc is a pretty lousy development but something I'll have to live with but if indeed Bioware ran out of resources and rushed the ending well those resources seem to have been engaged elsewhere.

johnny_ultimate · 23-04-2012 3:53pm

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

It was not mostly obnoxious. Considering fans have invested hundreds of dollars/euros/whatever individually into the series, and spent huge amounts of hours playing each installment, not to mention DLC. As customers they have every right to voice their hatred of the ending, and express their desire to have it changed/extended/turned into indoctrination.

Sorry, meant to common on this. I agree they have the right to voice their hatred for the ending in a considered, sensible manner. They have absolutely no right to demand they change it, and no right to send hate mail. A few of us have repeated time and time again in this thread why audiences have no right to demand the resolution they want: that's art by consensus, which is frankly a terrifying prospect. What matters first and foremost is the vision of the creators. In this case, that fell short in many regards, but you as a player and paying customer was still provided with 25 hours plus of relatively high quality content, an otherwise will-fleshed out narrative etc... as you were in the previous two games. That's what you paid for - a game - not the assumption that you'd like every single thing about it. Heck, even though I had issues with the game well and beyond the ending, I never felt short changed.

To use a comparison. I very strongly disliked the epilogue to Harry Potter, which I thought was a poorly-written and misguided conclusion to an otherwise perfectly enjoyable tale: one that was several thousand pages long and cost me a hundred euro or so to experience. I did not write to JK Rowling demanding she changed it, because that would be unreasonable. Indeed, I respect her right to handle it the way she did, as it is after all her story rather than mine. I am entitled to voice my opinion of why I didn't like it, but I am in no way entitled to demand less blunt closure through a couple of extra pages sent through the post. Similarly, I think the ending of the Lord of the Rings trilogy is about 20 minutes too long, but am unwilling to send death threats to Peter Jackson, and respect but criticise his decision to make the ending longer again in his extended cut. Because, again, I feel it's his baby, not mine.

But then again, Harry Potter is merely a moderately enjoyable yarn about a load of teenage wizards, while Mass Effect is merely a moderately enjoyable yarn about a load of guys and gals having space adventures. They are far from the prime example of a medium's capabilities (although ME2 remains a good example of the potential of interactive stroytelling). Most importantly, a sense of perspective is necessary when it comes to these things.

Ian7 · 23-04-2012 3:54pm

noodler wrote: »

If you listen to the guy on the radio in London he is clearly implying (with the percentages) that x% made it (or survived) - not that they just stopped or ran away scared!

Just to clarify, I'm talking about the middle of the earth mission where you meet Anderson and not the bit where Shepard gets hit by the beam, in which case...exactly..it doesn't explicitly say that more than 50% of Hammer have been killed on the way down. They just say that "X percent have reported in".
Anderson even says that "there's some stragglers still en-route".

Gbear wrote: »

I had about 8000. It's still the same.

Lots of hammer were destroyed. You even see some of them getting shot down when there's a big load of shuttles.

Yeah I just looked it up there earlier, 50% seems to be the max no matter how much EMS you have. I was going to say it's a shame but it all leads to one thing anyway....all of the ground forces in the run up the beam being wiped out as Major Coats says. Where is that crafty fecker hiding anyway while everyone else is dying?

Shepard is alive after the rush, Coats is clearly alive, Anderson is still alive, all of your squad are alive and have made it back to the Normandy after the final rush. We even see ground forces still fighting the reapers after the Citadel blows up.

Now, this could be just a case of loose writing, maybe there are soldiers still alive but not enough to be classified as part of the "hammer" strategy or.... perhaps....Shepard wakes up and has a reasonable force left to make one last stand?

Ian7 · 23-04-2012 4:13pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

A few of us have repeated time and time again in this thread why audiences have no right to demand the resolution they want: that's art by consensus, which is frankly a terrifying prospect. What matters first and foremost is the vision of the creators.

Art by Consensus....The Mass Effect series has pretty much taken on board many, many ideas from the fans, some of it through gauging fans reaction and some of it through polls. Bioware have left themselves open to this "want", they've succumb and even requested on many occasions. To suddenly take away the fans opinion on such a HUGE aspect of the series would in my opinion be hypocrisy. By succumbing this time does not mean that every game from now on will have to change its ending. As long as the writing is consistent the consumer will be happy.

johnny_ultimate · 23-04-2012 4:27pm

Ian7 wrote: »

Art by Consensus....The Mass Effect series has pretty much taken on board many, many ideas from the fans, some of it through gauging fans reaction and some of it through polls. Bioware have left themselves open to this "want", they've succumb and even requested on many occasions. To suddenly take away the fans opinion on such a HUGE aspect of the series would in my opinion be hypocrisy. By succumbing this time does not mean that every game from now on will have to change its ending. As long as the writing is consistent the consumer will be happy.

Fan participation is a double-edged sword, although one side is sharper than the other. Yes, in rare cases it can help buoy and expand the lore and scope of a work. But countless times it can dilute it, too, as obsessive fans change and expand upon stuff that, ultimately, doesn't matter at all. Perhaps in Mass Effect's case, there may be argument for it. Maybe. But it sets an unwelcome precedent, IMO, and needs to remain a once off.

There's a reason fan fiction deserve its negative reputation, after all, and why we leave art in the hands of the artist.

Also, you shouldn't think of yourself as a consumer first and foremost: I certainly don't when I'm playing a game, watching a film, reading a book. That's doing yourself a disservice: I sure as hell would like to think I'm more than a wallet.

wyrn · 23-04-2012 4:30pm

Ian7 wrote: »

Shepard is alive after the rush, Coats is clearly alive, Anderson is still alive, all of your squad are alive and have made it back to the Normandy after the final rush. We even see ground forces still fighting the reapers after the Citadel blows up.

Did everyone else see their team on the Normandy? I had Joker and Edi and I think possibly Kaiden when they got off the ship, but it was just focussed on Joker & Edi.

ShooterSF · 23-04-2012 4:55pm

Reading up on the indoctrination theory it's some fantastic fan fiction! Though it still leaves you needing a real ending and would rely on the cliched dream sequence mechanic.

I think the biggest problem I think people have is that Bioware didn't seem to think the fans would start to find plot holes and problems with the endings, the whole aliens stranded at earth, aliens that can't eat human food etc. They didn't care about the depth and detail of their universe as much as their fans and they really should. If I wrote an epic like this and had a fan point out how it contradicted itself later I'd be disgusted with myself. This should have been their love child and they should have wanted a great ending (not happy, just congruent).

What this ending does do is give the developers a clean slate to write future sequels on, set in the future. They don't have to care about which options you chose in the previous games or that their future universe is not the same as your one if they just made one ending canon and ignored the rest (Command and Conquer style).
From a development POV that makes sense I guess as the more games you go in the more possible combinations there are and it get's all very bloated. Hell there was voice actors credited for characters in the third game that I never met (through options in the first 2).

Ian7 · 23-04-2012 5:12pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

There's a reason fan fiction deserve its negative reputation, after all, and why we leave art in the hands of the artist

That is a very good point. While I understand your concern and just as you say perhaps there maybe a case for Mass Effect, it is probably a good thing if this is completely a once off.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Also, you shouldn't think of yourself as a consumer first and foremost: I certainly don't when I'm playing a game, watching a film, reading a book. That's doing yourself a disservice: I sure as hell would like to think I'm more than a wallet.

Does this mean that you expect what you are paying for? as in the ending you paid for

:D. Only messin, I don't think there is any need for us to keep going down that road.

wyrn wrote: »

Did everyone else see their team on the Normandy? I had Joker and Edi and I think possibly Kaiden when they got off the ship, but it was just focussed on Joker & Edi.

Everyone gets a slightly different variation on the characters who appear out of the Normandy thus the assumption that all of them are alive. Why they don't all walk off the Normandy together is just one of the many unexplained aspects of the ending.

Only Bieber knows.....

By the by, the characters which come out of the Normandy include Joker in all cases, your love interest and your most used squad mate. Now, considering that your most used squad mate and your love interest may have very well been with you right up until you were blazered by Harbinger, what does that say about their loyalties? Leaving you in agony on the ground while they run away? Terrible terrible writing.

wyrn · 23-04-2012 6:19pm

Ian7 wrote: »

By the by, the characters which come out of the Normandy include Joker in all cases, your love interest and your most used squad mate. Now, considering that your most used squad mate and your love interest may have very well been with you right up until you were blazered by Harbinger, what does that say about their loyalties? Leaving you in agony on the ground while they run away? Terrible terrible writing.

I should have saved Ashley, she wouldn't have run away!

Actually I had an issue with Kaiden's story - we had a conversation where he "forgave me" for cheating on him, even though I had died and he fecked off and ignored me when we finally reunited. Didn't even fight for me when I hooked up with Cerebus. Then he didn't even apologies for Thane, who had just died. Seriously though, that really bothered me. I know it shouldn't and in the grand scheme of things, it's not that important. I swear, if there had been a renegade moment he would have been b1tchslapped off the citadel.

/silly girly rant

johnny_ultimate · 23-04-2012 6:28pm

Just saw Kotaku published this, and I think it's relevant to our argument about why developers shouldn't take 'fans' too seriously

http://kotaku.com/5904367/another-day-another-death-threat-from-gamers-to-the-people-who-make-video-games

noodler · 23-04-2012 6:53pm

Ian7 wrote: »

Just to clarify, I'm talking about the middle of the earth mission where you meet Anderson and not the bit where Shepard gets hit by the beam, in which case...exactly..it doesn't explicitly say that more than 50% of Hammer have been killed on the way down. They just say that "X percent have reported in".
Anderson even says that "there's some stragglers still en-route".

As was I. There is a moment when you are walking around the London camp where you can overhear a radio transmission on each of the individual Hammer squads and whether or not they made it.

It seems to be a fixed variable.

ShooterSF wrote: »

Reading up on the indoctrination theory it's some fantastic fan fiction! Though it still leaves you needing a real ending and would rely on the cliched dream sequence mechanic.

Bioware's tweets since the public outcry have been vague but to me they suggest that the theory isn't simply fan fiction.

I was convinced 5 minutes into the 20 minutes the youtube video I watched 20 mins after I finished the game.

Gbear · 23-04-2012 7:07pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Just saw Kotaku published this, and I think it's relevant to our argument about why developers shouldn't take 'fans' too seriously

http://kotaku.com/5904367/another-day-another-death-threat-from-gamers-to-the-people-who-make-video-games

It's very simple. View someone's argument based on it's own merit.

Not taking "nerds" seriously because some dickhead sends a death threat is easy but ultimately stupid.

In the end, directors of films, novelists and developers of games are only mere mortals.

Dismissing all criticism of something by tarring all the critics with the same brush - in this case "angry entitled nerds", is a massive failure of logic that is all too common in all forms of argument.

Ian7 · 23-04-2012 7:14pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Just saw Kotaku published this, and I think it's relevant to our argument about why developers shouldn't take 'fans' too seriously

I agree. Anyone who issues death threats or send hate in any form to any dev or team does enormous damage to genuine fans who just want to be heard. The hate being directed toward Casey Hudson at the moment is sickening in most cases. The worst thing is, people who wouldn't even dream of being nasty or who wouldn't consider themselves to be nasty feel it's ok to do so over the net as they have anonymity to hide behind. I reckon though with any form of media there is this element of nastiness. You just have to look at the comments on youtube, that place is a cesspit of hatred.

Mass Effect 3: The Ending(s) [** Spoilers **]

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Mass Effect 3: The Ending(s) [ Spoilers ]