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Households must pay for water meters.

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    #302
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    Ah well, I suppose time will tell that one.

    I'll bet you will pay or that tax free allowance cert is amended (to collect the tax and penalties) long before Local Authority Housing people pay it. Based on your indication that you earn more than me, I wouldn't have a shred of sympathy for you.

    What was that about playing the ball?

    See ya, Donal!


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    #303
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    Someday you'll grasp the reality that we are spending a hell of a lot more than we are raising in tax.
    Hi there. Spending rocketed northwards during the bubble, based on windfall capital gains taxes from unreal property prices and the sales thereof. The entire apparatus of the Irish government is still spending at bubble levels.

    Now I'm sorry that the many overpaid public sector workers with gold plated pensions (speaking of unsustainable, they'd have to pay between 30-40% of their pre-tax salary to pay for what they get from the taxpayer almost gratis) are going to have to take a pay cut to sustainable levels, and I'm sorry for the giant middle management rump who are closing garda stations and letting people rot in trolleys in hospital corridors to try and bludgeon the public into paying more while they sweat their way to the early skiving off to bate the traffic dontcha know, and I'm sorry for the hugely overpaid politicos who won only because their competition was stunningly shite, I am sorry for the ever blossoming garden of quangos that will have to be shut rather than being used as political bargaining chips, and indeed I'm even sorry for collection of knobs that blew billions down the last five years on failed vanity projects and somehow managed to keep their jobs, losing them.

    But I guess someday you'll grasp the reality that we are spending a hell of a lot more than we are raising in tax, and what that really means.


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    #304
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Water charges makes sense. Making people pay for the meters though is very questionable though.
    I should add this doesn't affect me as I pay for my own water via a private well and I also pay my taxes for those who claim their water is paid for by taxes already paid, if this is the case I don't see why people who pay for their own water subsidise though who get their water for free.

    When we had the big freeze in 2010, we heard of people leaving taps on and running reservoirs down to levels that put the whole public water system under great pressure with restrictions being imposed.
    Water metering would stop this.
    Paying for water and hopefully through a dedicated water company will lead to more money being available to replace old pipes and reduce water wastage through leakage.


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    #305
    MonkeyTennis
    Registered Users Posts: 3,098 ✭✭✭MonkeyTennis


    Weathercheck wrote: »
    Poor old FG+LAB

    They will spend the next 3-4 years putting Ireland into a sustainable tax and charge basis so we can pay our bills into the future, they will become increasingly unpopular over time, Fianna Fail will be voted in 2015 with the Shinners. The economy will recover as a result of the decisions and natural economic cycle, Fianna Fail will take the kudos and reign for another 30 years.

    Over my dead body


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    #306
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    Hi there. Spending rocketed northwards during the bubble, based on windfall capital gains taxes from unreal property prices and the sales thereof. The entire apparatus of the Irish government is still spending at bubble levels.

    Now I'm sorry that the many overpaid public sector workers with gold plated pensions (speaking of unsustainable, they'd have to pay between 30-40% of their pre-tax salary to pay for what they get from the taxpayer almost gratis) are going to have to take a pay cut to sustainable levels, and I'm sorry for the giant middle management rump who are closing garda stations and letting people rot in trolleys in hospital corridors to try and bludgeon the public into paying more while they sweat their way to the early skiving off to bate the traffic dontcha know, and I'm sorry for the hugely overpaid politicos who won only because their competition was stunningly shite, I am sorry for the ever blossoming garden of quangos that will have to be shut rather than being used as political bargaining chips, and indeed I'm even sorry for collection of knobs that blew billions down the last five years on failed vanity projects and somehow managed to keep their jobs, losing them.

    But I guess someday you'll grasp the reality that we are spending a hell of a lot more than we are raising in tax, and what that really means.

    I have no difficulty slashing public expenditure and social welfare right across the board.

    I am not convinced that it can fully bridge the gap (as the impact of same will further deflate the economy), but certainly it should be tried.

    I just believe that we need to raise some revenue through broad based tax raising techniques in tandem > hence I am in favour of property and water charges (in addition to a much lower entry point in Income Tax).


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    #307
    washman3
    Registered Users Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    If McDowell came back and set up a new party to tackle this country, I'd welcome it. Maybe that will sort out this issue for you for once and for all?


    any respect i had for you opinions have evapourated after reading this.
    Is this the same McDowell that was part of a FF/PD coalition that virtually brought this country to its knees.?
    the same McDowell that "offered" €30million for a farm in north county Dublin to build a prison, when the farm's owner had a €4 to €6 million figure in mind as a selling price.
    McDowell is a major part of the upper class wealthy elite. he has been consigned to the dustbin of history and should remain there for the rest of his luxury,gold plated,pensionable lifetime.:mad:


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    #308
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    I just believe that we need to raise some revenue through broad based tax raising techniques in tandem > hence I am in favour of property and water charges (in addition to a much lower entry point in Income Tax).
    I don't mind paying taxes, I'm no libertarian. But I absolutely do have the right to demand value for my money, and I'm not getting that. For example in Health, right now we pay as much per capita as the Dutch, who are recognised as having the best health service in the OECD. In contrast we're languishing at number 16 or somewhere. Despite the vast, ridiculous sums of money being shovelled at the sector, its vanishing down a black hole of incompetence, redundant departments, and corruption.

    The government is more afraid of the unions than the public. Hell in many ways the government are the unions. But that attitude will change soon I think, the alternative is ending up like Greece, so a similar result except we owe hugely more after the riots unless something is done soon.


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    #309
    Smidge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    I already have a water metre installed by the group water scheme who "look after" our water supply. How will this new brainwave work for people in this situation? Will the group water scheme be responsible for collecting this tax?


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    #310
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    The main reason we are in this mess is that FF bought the 1977 general election by abolishing household rates.

    Had they not done that then rates would have reduced the cost of houses during the boom.

    Plus a shedload of other taxes would have been smaller!


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    #311
    howamidifferent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭howamidifferent


    Biggins wrote: »
    The point is that there is only SO MUCH that can be generated from each person before they cross over into not being able to spend on extra's besides basics - and as we are bled more dry with every new additional charge (I'm NOT objecting to paying for water - I do have an issue with this forever 'rental' of a meter), the less there is for even the basics.

    A sack will stand up as long as its filled to a certain extent.
    ...But keep draining the sand out if it - eventually it falls down and is not use to no one!
    Thats us and the money we currently have.

    Now FG and Labour can dream up all the charges they want - but just because they can newly invent them, don't mean all or many can automatically afford to pay them!
    There has to be a point where we (our government) has to say "STOP - we cannot take any more. We are reaching a point where we are doing more harm than good now!".
    ...And if FG and labour CANNOT see that, they don't deserve to remain in government office!


    This! the shower in goverment dont give a fcuk! :mad:


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    #312
    howamidifferent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭howamidifferent


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    You cud sell it and rent?
    Troll!:mad:


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    #313
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Plus a shedload of other taxes would have been smaller!
    Ah meballs, 35 years the country did fine without rates, including through a worse recession than this one, now all of a sudden the taxpayer has to cover inda's hairdye allowance. The idea that prices would have been lower with rates is also nonsense, prices were a factor of what the banks would lend and not much else. Financial facts never entered into it.


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    #314
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Doc Ruby wrote: »

    The government is more afraid of the unions than the public. Hell in many ways the government are the unions. But that attitude will change soon I think, the alternative is ending up like Greece, so a similar result except we owe hugely more after the riots unless something is done soon.

    What do you think will change the mind of the government soon? They seem to be sticking to their guns.


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    #315
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    Calhoun wrote: »
    What do you think will change the mind of the government soon? They seem to be sticking to their guns.
    The only thing that really scares a politician is not getting elected again, but in Ireland's case this is balanced somewhat by terror of being blackballed by unelected and unsackable civil servants and the carrot of a pension dangling in front of the donkeys. The system needs a reboot badly, the constitution left by devalera and public bodies aping the british civil service at every step has us chasing our own hindquarters like dogs with nothing better to do.


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    #316
    howamidifferent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭howamidifferent


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    The only thing that really scares a politician is not getting elected again, but in Ireland's case this is balanced somewhat by terror of being blackballed by unelected and unsackable civil servants and the carrot of a pension dangling in front of the donkeys. The system needs a reboot badly, the constitution left by devalera and public bodies aping the british civil service at every step has us chasing our own hindquarters like dogs with nothing better to do.

    What we need is a pension for politicians based on performance not time in the job. Basically we need a thing called "accountability". If you do ****all then you get ****all! :mad:


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    #317
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    howamidifferent wrote: »
    What we need is a pension for politicians based on performance not time in the job. Basically we need a thing called "accountability". If you do ****all then you get ****all! :mad:
    Great minds think alike clearly.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76632651


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    #318
    nacimroc
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭nacimroc


    22 pages of ****e! It will be the same charge for water for everyone. You can install a water meter if you choose at your expense same as the way every other country will do it. If you think you use less, pay for a meter and you get your water cheaper. Simple! Jesus! People are getting obsessed with anything service related these days!


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    #319
    howamidifferent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭howamidifferent


    nacimroc wrote: »
    22 pages of ****e! It will be the same charge for water for everyone. You can install a water meter if you choose at your expense same as the way every other country will do it. If you think you use less, pay for a meter and you get your water cheaper. Simple! Jesus! People are getting obsessed with anything service related these days!

    No, the problem is that the same people, those who own their own house (have a huge debt) are being asked to pay for those who get everything for free, those in LA housing who get everything for free despite having more disposaable income!! :mad:


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    #320
    nacimroc
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭nacimroc


    howamidifferent wrote: »
    No, the problem is that the same people, those who own their own house (have a huge debt) are being asked to pay for those who get everything for free, those in LA housing who get everything for free despite having more disposaable income!! :mad:

    So everyone who owns a house has a huge debt and everyone on the dole is minted! Great bit of stereotyping there Sherlock!

    While we're talking drivvle, hows about the point that someone in LA housing didn't borrow beyond their means causing a huge recession and are now renaging on fixing their own mess?

    On topic, the meters will probably be optional. Get one or don't, but don't bitch about having to pay when you don't!


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    #321
    lisaface
    Registered Users Posts: 291 ✭✭lisaface


    I will only ever pay this stupid fee, when they provide suitable drinking/bathing water. Actually if they live by their household charge fee's i'll be expecting that, and when it doesn't then, I will refer them to this 'new fee'.

    The amount of chlorine (amongst other crap) in the water in my area, not only is not suitable for drinking (I wouldn't even give it to the dog - it's that bad), but also breaks me out in a rash. So until they sort that, they can shove their f*ck!ng fee up their h0les! :)

    I wasn't this against the household charge, but this one.. I will fight the refusal of payment until they fix the issue. Oh and in before anyone says to get that liquid/ or filter that breaks down the limescale & chlorine in the water, it doesn't make a difference!


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    #322
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    Great minds think alike clearly.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76632651
    At face value that might seem like a reasonable idea Doc but think it through and you will see the flaw. You are providing incentives to politicians to do the popular thing, not the right thing.

    Bertie Ahern for example would have done very well under your plan. All of us were nominally happy with our lower tax rates and the public sector were happy with their rising wages. Alas it was largely fuelled by a property bubble which was never going to last. Had Bertie stood down in 2007 he would have done very nicely in a “reward” election.

    Conversely, if and when FG + Lab tackle public sector pay you can expect the high approval rate, of FG in particular, to evaporate. This is already a difficult enough challenge for them to confront without introducing additional disincentives!


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    #323
    Nothingbetter2d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭Nothingbetter2d


    we should hold the gov by the balls... tell them they get a no vote for the referendum on the fiscal treaty if we have to pay for water meters.

    if the gov bought water meters in bulk be the hundreds of thousands they should be able to do better then the €300+ each they are proposing. they will most likely be made in china anyways... we all know this money will be going to troika, and germany and will not go on upgrading water services. The EU can feck off as far as i concerned.


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    #324
    fishy fishy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭fishy fishy


    kenny and gilmore = Angelas Asses.


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    #325
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Can someone please explain this to me?

    Are we paying for the meter, or are we paying for the installation only?

    I'd presume its for installation only, if the suggestions that we may have to rent the meter afterwards are true?

    300€ would be an expensive installation, and to any smart plumbers out there reading this, they shopuld be off this minute to enquire if they can obtain some sort of cert to entitle them to install it.

    There's not many things in life that you pay for, (making it your property) but then have to rent it afterwards?


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    #326
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    fishy fishy wrote: »
    kenny and gilmore = Angelas Asses.

    Harry and Lloyd would be more apt tbh.


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    #327
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Wow, the government is really doing its utmost to annoy people. They may as well just take the entirety of our pay checks and cut out the middle man at this point.


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    #328
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Can someone please explain this to me?

    Are we paying for the meter, or are we paying for the installation only?

    Even our own rotten government does not know.
    So far there have allowed three different versions of PR spin!
    See: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0416/1224314763558.html#.T4tnJH5XmWw.facebook

    If they are going to bullschite us (again) - the least they can do, is get their story straight!
    TAOISEACH ENDA Kenny has added to confusion over the cost of water meters, saying households would have to pay for meters but their installation would be free.

    Mr Kenny’s comments contradict statements made yesterday by Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore and the Department of the Environment.

    (VERSION ONE) Speaking in Mayo yesterday, Mr Kenny said the cost of water meters had not yet been determined by the regulator, but there would be no charge to fit them.

    “There will not be an installation charge for the householder because that cost will be covered as a loan from the National Pension Reserve Fund to the department. There will be a cost for the meter itself,” Mr Kenny told RTÉ news.

    (VERSION TWO) However, a spokesman for the Department of the Environment last night said both the cost of buying and installing water meters would be passed on to the households and not paid for by the exchequer.

    “Similar to how other regulated utilities are funded globally, the cost of the meters and the delivery of service will be passed on to the consumers,” he said.

    (VERSION THREE) Speaking on RTÉ radio yesterday, Mr Gilmore articulated a third position. “No decision has yet been made on how water meters are to be paid for.”

    He reiterated the point later in the interview. “No decision has been made yet on how the water metering arrangement is to be done . . . the amount and the charge for a water meter and so on, that is something that has not been decided yet.”

    More than a million homes will have to have water metres installed by the end of next year if charges are to be introduced on schedule in 2014, as set out in the EU-ECB-IMF deal.

    Although a figure of between €300 and €350 per household’s metre installation has been used by the department in the past, the spokesman said the €300 figure given in media reports yesterday was “purely speculation” and the cost would “vary depending on the location of the property”.

    He said the Commission for Energy Regulation would be responsible for determining the cost, allowance, approval of a capital investment programme and framework for levying the charges. “The department has prepared detailed cost estimates on meters following extensive market soundings.” It would be “inappropriate” to release estimated figures before a “competitive procurement process”.

    Campaigners against water charges warned of widespread chaos if householders are charged for the installation of water meters.

    Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins predicted an even greater boycott of water charges than the almost 50 per cent non-payment of the household charge. He said widespread refusal to pay the cost of supplying and installing meters would cause “chaos” as some households would pay and have metres installed, while others would not.

    He urged householders to refuse to pay. “The Government, the troika and EU bureaucrats want a second tier of taxes . . . This will be resisted in every possible way.”

    The Cabinet is due to discuss the establishment of a private company, Irish Water, tomorrow to oversee the installation of meters and charges.

    Ruth Coppinger of the Campaign Against Household and Water Charges, said Government arguments that water meters would encourage people to conserve water were spurious.

    While charges encouraged conservation in the short term “in the medium to long term people go back to using as much as before. Meters are like speed cameras, people forget about them and go back to their bad habits”.

    She said of greater benefit would be an investment in the repair and replacement of leaking pipes, through which up to 50 percent of water was lost. “That would put thousands of plumbers and engineers back to work.”


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    #329
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    will they continue the policy of putting fluoride in our water supply?


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    #330
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    As much as I hate paying for something (who really doesn't), I do feel we should contribute towards services we use, thats fair enough.
    If I use electricity, gas or water services, fine, bill me - but this crap of a never ending 'renting' bill for a meter 'awarded' to me?
    Fcuk that - I want to be able to buy my own - not have another noose around my neck till the day I die!

    You give me a meter as a gift? Thanks! (I say sarcastically)
    You give me a meter that I didn't want and then never endlessly charge me for it? Fcuk you!


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    #331
    AboutTwoFiddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 216 ✭✭AboutTwoFiddy


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Can someone please explain this to me?

    Are we paying for the meter, or are we paying for the installation only?

    I'd presume its for installation only, if the suggestions that we may have to rent the meter afterwards are true?

    300€ would be an expensive installation, and to any smart plumbers out there reading this, they shopuld be off this minute to enquire if they can obtain some sort of cert to entitle them to install it.

    There's not many things in life that you pay for, (making it your property) but then have to rent it afterwards?

    The government were in talks with Siemens to provide the meters and the system for metering.

    For anyone that's not up to speed on Siemens, they have a history of bribery and corruption...ah sure I suppose that would fit nicely with the Irish Government.


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