Households must pay for water meters.

ilovesleep · 15-04-2012 5:01pm

Biggins wrote: »

I take exception to the charging of a water meter.

If someone wants to charge me something, they can pay-up themselves for the means to charge me for use of water!

I do not object to paying for something I use.
I object to their forcing a meter on me (if I want it or not) and then telling me I must also pay for it!
Not only that but because they have 'awarded' me the privilege of having a meter, they then on top of this are going to charge me yearly (another form of tax!) for the luxury of having it!
...and what's this rental cost going towards? Its maintaince?

Why are you not in government Mr.Biggins? You would do a great job.

lugha · 15-04-2012 5:01pm

Robdude wrote: »

My taxes haven't gone down - what new benefit am I getting in place of the water I used to get in exchange for my taxes?

Are you aware that we have a budget deficit?

Bullseye1 · 15-04-2012 5:02pm

Can those who say we get water free please explain since those of us who pay our taxes are confused. We get nothing for free in this country.

Freddie59 · 15-04-2012 5:04pm

lugha wrote: »

I’d have no objection in principle, though there probably wouldn’t be a well in most gardens I think. And there may be other issues in build up areas. But certainly people could look at rain harvesting mechanisms.

If they want the convenience of piped water then people should pay for it, and as is the case with electricity and gas and so on, paying according to the amount you use seems perfectly sensible to me. But if people do not want these conveniences then they should have the right not to have them if that is there wish. I'd fully support anyone taking that stance.

Water is a basic necessity Lugha. Given that the current bailout of failed businesses and CS/PS sector pay/"entitlements" is causing it makes it all the more maddening.

ilovesleep · 15-04-2012 5:05pm

F.F. = Fcuking Fcuks
F.G. = Fcuking Gangsters
Lab (short for Labour) = Lickers of Arses and Bollo(kes

lividduck · 15-04-2012 5:05pm

Yakuza wrote: »

I would be pretty surprised if there was currently a law that allows government agents to come onto private property and start digging it up to install something. As far as I know, only Customs have draconian powers (warrantless entry) and that's only to take stuff away, not install more.

But, just as they are ( in the process of) amending the Data Protection laws to get their grubby mits on householder name data from the utility companies, they'll empower agents to do exactly the above.

Firstly they are amending Data protection laws because they dont need to, and second the can already enter your property, an elderly woman was jailed for contempt a few months ago for trying to prevent Eirgrid from chopping down her trees on her land.

Biggins · 15-04-2012 5:05pm

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Can those who say we get water free please explain since those of us who pay our taxes are confused. We get nothing for free in this country.

Well thats not entirely true.
We get abused for free! (correction, we have to pay for that later)
We get taken the piss out of for free though!

We cannot however, even be charged for free.
We have to it seems, even have to pay for the ability of being made pay, for services! ...And that sums up the latest present non-funny joke complements of FG and Labour!

Robdude · 15-04-2012 5:07pm

lugha wrote: »

Are you aware that we have a budget deficit?

Do you believe the budget deficit is caused by a lack of water tax? Is there a huge water debt burden that greatly exceeds the tax revenue collected to pay for water?

If you honestly think the answer is yes; then I fully understand supporting water meters. To be 100% fair - I don't know if this is the case, but I assume it is not. I haven't heard anything about dramatic increases in water costs or water consumption in Ireland.

If the answer is no - then let's address cause of the budget deficit. A budget deficit is when we spend more than we take in. I don't remember hearing about any huge tax cuts; so it would make sense that we start looking at what we are spending our money on, rather than introducing more taxes.

What bothers me about the water metering thing; is that it's being kicked around under the guise of being a rational thing to do. Water isn't free! This is a totally reasonable thing to do! We're not raising taxes to pay for ridiculous stuff; instead we're taking your tax money that used to pay for water and using it for ridiculous stuff and making you pay a new tax for a perfectly reasonable thing - WATER!

Freddie59 · 15-04-2012 5:08pm

lugha wrote: »

Are you aware that we have a budget deficit?

Ah Lugha, you're gas. Seriously.

Biggins · 15-04-2012 5:10pm

Its really taking the piss when it looks like the Irish people once again will be made to pay up for the privilege of being made to pay up!
...And for ever more in 'rental' charges (or whatever convoluted name they can give it next) for that privilege! O' what joy!

lugha · 15-04-2012 5:11pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

Water is a basic necessity

No more so that electricity or gas / oil. We can survive without any of these things piped into our homes but at a cost of considerable inconvenience.

There is no more a case for free water than there is for free gas. The only difference is, we are used to paying for gas in proportion to the amount we use. That is not the case for water.

Bullseye1 · 15-04-2012 5:14pm

There you go again with your propaganda of free water. It's not free we pay taxes and those of us who pay rates also pay for water for commercial properties.

lugha wrote: »

No more so that electricity or gas / oil. We can survive without any of these things piped into our homes but at a cost of considerable inconvenience.

There is no more a case for free water than there is for free gas. The only difference is, we are used to paying for gas in proportion to the amount we use. That is not the case for water.

genie · 15-04-2012 5:14pm

Yakuza wrote: »

? Really - that's massive - around 4 *4 *4 metres. That's a serious tank!

Yes, it is pretty big and is partly sunken into the ground. It's about 2m high. If I was to build one myself, I'd try and see if the whole tank could be underground.

ilovesleep · 15-04-2012 5:16pm

By any chances does anyone know how much the private sector's exporting industry here in Ireland is worth? How many billions?

If you think about it - say for example all the governments funding and borrowing is stopped the goverment would have to balance the budget straight away. We'd be living of the taxes raised from the exporting industry and indeed tourism but I'm guessing the tourism industry wouldn't be worth as much as the exporting industry.

The government should be slashing spending and public expeniture to match what the exporting industry is worth.

awec · 15-04-2012 5:16pm

Biggins wrote: »

Its really taking the piss when it looks like the Irish people once again will be made to pay up for the privilege of being made to pay up!
...And for ever more in 'rental' charges (or whatever convoluted name they can give it next) for that privilege! O' what joy!

Just last week we heard that the catholic church has said it can't pay the 1.5billion that it owes! We are paying for that!

So if I decide I can't pay my water bill, will I get away with it too? :mad:

We're getting screwed left, right and centre!

awec · 15-04-2012 5:17pm

lugha wrote: »

No more so that electricity or gas / oil. We can survive without any of these things piped into our homes but at a cost of considerable inconvenience.

There is no more a case for free water than there is for free gas. The only difference is, we are used to paying for gas in proportion to the amount we use. That is not the case for water.

Can you tell me where you get this free water?

Fighting Irish · 15-04-2012 5:21pm

AntiRip wrote: »

Awh public sector I see. If you weren't just a ... you'd see the point I was trying to make about the unfairness of the tax. Don't bother wasting your time replying to me, I block all knobs like yourself :rolleyes:

:pac:

Biggins · 15-04-2012 5:22pm

awec wrote: »

Just last week we heard that the catholic church has said it can't pay the 1.5billion that it owes! We are paying for that!

So if I decide I can't pay my water bill, will I get away with it too? :mad:

We're getting screwed left, right and centre!

...And while our political present masters do the screwing on us, they are making us pay for the lube!

lugha · 15-04-2012 5:25pm

Bullseye1 wrote: »

There you go again with your propaganda of free water. It's not free we pay taxes and those of us who pay rates also pay for water for commercial properties.

I'm possibly not being very clear in my post. Of course water is not free.

Robdude · 15-04-2012 5:26pm

lugha wrote: »

No more so that electricity or gas / oil. We can survive without any of these things piped into our homes but at a cost of considerable inconvenience.

There is no more a case for free water than there is for free gas. The only difference is, we are used to paying for gas in proportion to the amount we use. That is not the case for water.

Who currently pays for the water consumed by households?
Tax payers

Who is going to pay for the water consumed by households after the metering?
Tax payers

Now, if this was really about paying for water; I'd expect to see the figures on the average amount of water used per household in the country and the amount of tax required to pay for that. Then, I'd expect to see *some* tax reduced by that amount.

Thus, if you used less than the average; you would save money under the metered system. If you used more than average; you'd pay more to reflect your usage.

But - this isn't about paying for water. We already pay for water. We'll keep paying the tax for water; but then get to pay a new tax that is also for water. And we get to pay extra for the equipment to monitor the water usage and the overhead that goes along with billing and collecting....for the gift of paying for the water we've already paid for while the tax money that used to pay for our water gets spent on something else.

awec · 15-04-2012 5:27pm

Correct Robdude!

Make no mistake, we will be paying for our water. Twice.

lugha · 15-04-2012 5:28pm

Robdude wrote: »

Do you believe the budget deficit is caused by a lack of water tax? Is there a huge water debt burden that greatly exceeds the tax revenue collected to pay for water?

If you honestly think the answer is yes; then I fully understand supporting water meters. To be 100% fair - I don't know if this is the case, but I assume it is not. I haven't heard anything about dramatic increases in water costs or water consumption in Ireland.

If the answer is no - then let's address cause of the budget deficit. A budget deficit is when we spend more than we take in. I don't remember hearing about any huge tax cuts; so it would make sense that we start looking at what we are spending our money on, rather than introducing more taxes.

What bothers me about the water metering thing; is that it's being kicked around under the guise of being a rational thing to do. Water isn't free! This is a totally reasonable thing to do! We're not raising taxes to pay for ridiculous stuff; instead we're taking your tax money that used to pay for water and using it for ridiculous stuff and making you pay a new tax for a perfectly reasonable thing - WATER!

I got the impression from your post that you were asking why were you making a payment and not getting a product / service in return. Perhaps I missed your point?

Edit:

Robdude wrote: »

Then, I'd expect to see *some* tax reduced by that amount.

And you would, if we had no deficit.

melekalikimaka · 15-04-2012 5:28pm

awec wrote: »

Correct Robdude!

Make no mistake, we will be paying for our water. Twice.

how twice?

mikom · 15-04-2012 5:28pm

"No double taxation without double representation"

mondeo · 15-04-2012 5:30pm

Ireland needs a revolution and the country given back to the people. As much as I like Ireland there is no real future here anymore. I wont be bringing my kids up in this country as I think they would be far better off else where

.

awec · 15-04-2012 5:31pm

melekalikimaka wrote: »

how twice?

You already pay for your water now. Water is not provided to your house free of charge.

This new water meter will be tax on top of the current tax. It is a second tax on water.

Bullseye1 · 15-04-2012 5:31pm

melekalikimaka wrote: »

how twice?

Because we already pay taxes which pay for water. This new tax will be specifically for water but the original tax will not be removed so we will be paying twice. And if there is VAT three times.

melekalikimaka · 15-04-2012 5:32pm

awec wrote: »

You already pay for your water now. Water is not provided to your house free of charge.

This new water meter will be tax on top of the current tax. It is a second tax on water.

surely tax youpay now will go towards something else, the cost of service isnt going to double once the tax comes in, thats just ridiculous logic

Biggins · 15-04-2012 5:35pm

mondeo wrote: »

...I wont be bringing my kids up in this country as I think they would be far better off else where .

That notion is sadly understandable.
The wife and I very recently helped a woman to sell her items off from her home.
She was selling EVERYTHING, even down to the carpets in her home and the kids toys (Wii and similar consoles), selling everything, even her clothes.
She was heading with her child and Irish husband to Australia to where she had relatives.
She simply could not longer afford to live here with her family.

She was not the first to do this that my wife and I have heard of in the last few months alone - and as FG/Labour continue with their disgusting march onwards of bleeding the Irish public stone dry, won't be the last!

awec · 15-04-2012 5:37pm

melekalikimaka wrote: »

surely tax youpay now will go towards something else, the cost of service isnt going to double once the tax comes in, thats just ridiculous logic

Something else like what?

DonalK1981 · 15-04-2012 5:37pm

Isn't there a basic right of food and shelter, no one ever said anything about paying a broke Government for the privilege of clean water.

Robdude · 15-04-2012 5:37pm

lugha wrote: »

I got the impression from your post that you were asking why were you making a payment and not getting a product / service in return. Perhaps I missed your point?

Edit:
And you would, if we had no deficit.

My point is that this isn't about water and justifications about water 'not being free' are irrelevant in this context.

The money raised from this tax isn't to pay for water usage. The money raised from this tax is going to pay for something else people would be more pissed off knowing they were being taxed to pay for.

It's just a deception.

But it's easier to get people to pay more for water (that they already pay for) than to get politicians to justify their spending budgets.

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 15-04-2012 5:37pm

Biggins wrote: »

There are many on the streets. 2,000+ yesterday in Galway alone. Sadly, the rest of the country won't join them.

Protesting presumes the government actually cares about what people want. I don't believe they do. And if a protest comes with absolutely no bargaining power, then why wouldn't they just ignore it?

44leto · 15-04-2012 5:39pm

300 to 500 for such a marvellous technological piece of gadgetry a bargain if ever I did see one. Except in this economy I can't see people running to the shop to acquire the latest one.

melekalikimaka · 15-04-2012 5:43pm

awec wrote: »

Something else like what?

like the countries debt? maybe towards paying medical cards/ excessive sw, subsiding college fees? lots of things, just now we have a specific tax for a specific service

Bullseye1 · 15-04-2012 5:47pm

If people invested in their own pumps it would work out cheaper in the long run.

Biggins · 15-04-2012 5:51pm

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

Protesting presumes the government actually cares about what people want. I don't believe they do. And if a protest comes with absolutely no bargaining power, then why wouldn't they just ignore it?

Indeed - but they ignore it at their peril.

Gains, even slight ones, will be made by parties once considered unpalatable, by people who have just had enough of the current (or previous) shower.

They can ignore the protests if they wish and its seems they are - but in biting the hand that is feeding them, then ignoring them, they sow possible seeds of hatred, for some other people to reap later.
...Then look out!
Once again the whole political scene might change yet again!

The way things are going, I can't say I don't welcome that change at least, yet again!

lugha · 15-04-2012 5:54pm

Robdude wrote: »

My point is that this isn't about water and justifications about water 'not being free' are irrelevant in this context.

The money raised from this tax isn't to pay for water usage. The money raised from this tax is going to pay for something else people would be more pissed off knowing they were being taxed to pay for.

It's just a deception.

But it's easier to get people to pay more for water (that they already pay for) than to get politicians to justify their spending budgets.

Fine, but it all amount to the same thing. If they government have to raise X billion in taxes next year and Y of this comes from a direct water charge then , if they succeed in implementing this measure they will need to raise X-Y in other taxes, if they fail they will have to raise X in other taxes. Is the net effect on the taxpayer not the same?

The Waltzing Consumer · 15-04-2012 5:58pm

Biggins wrote: »

Indeed - but they ignore it at their peril.

Gains, even slight ones, will be made by parties once considered unpalatable, by people who have just had enough of the current (or previous) shower.

They can ignore the protests if they wish and its seems they are - but in biting the hand that is feeding them, then ignoring them, they sow possible seeds of hatred, for some other people to reap later.
...Then look out!
Once again the whole political scene might change yet again!

The way things are going, I can't say I don't welcome that change at least, yet again!

God you are quite the rabble rouser on this thread.

Sow possible seeds of hatred? You have gone very Fox News on us Biggins. 2000 people at a protest? Wow, just wow. Is that even half of one percent of the population?

ilovesleep · 15-04-2012 6:00pm

Lets not forget that person who retired earlier in the year from the civil service with a package of 800,000 euro in which 200,000 euro is tax free and a yearly pension of what? 150,000+

Lets not forget the others alike with massive packages and pensions.

While the paupers (that you and I) with the minimal incomes that are severely reduced are forced to cough up money to keep the over inflated gravy train going.

Capt'n Midnight · 15-04-2012 6:07pm

At present the poor pay 3 times as much of their disposable income on VAT than the rich.
http://www.esr.ie/vol42_2/06%20Tol%20article_ESRI%20Vol%2042-2.pdf

Taken as a % of income this is another disproportionate tax.

It will also contribute to fuel poverty since there will be less disposable income.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0208/1224311464150.html

He estimated that half the population would be in fuel poverty within five years and 75 per cent within a decade unless steps were taken towards drawing up a co-ordinated energy policy.

Fuel poverty is defined as a household spending more than 10 per cent of disposable income on heating.

So what do we get for the money, for €300 for a meter up front and continuous payments afterwards ?

At present 41%-43% of the water in the mains is lost through leaks For an investment of several hundred million we will be charged the cost of supplying this extra water. Note in Dublin is down to 28% because of investment in fixing the water mains.

Yes it will create jobs, but so too would fixing the water mains.

How much would water charges be ?? http://www.dublincity.ie/WaterWasteEnvironment/waterprojects/Documents/The%20Plan.pdf

The Minimum Planning Scenario main assumptions are summarised as follows;
- Full introduction of Domestic Metering & Charging by 2020 – 2022
- Reductions of up to 20% in personal usage (resulting from metering &
charging)
- Reductions of up to 70% in customer leakage (resulting from metering &
charging)
- Promotion of best practice demand management including bye-laws to
encourage low water use
- Reductions in Distribution Network Leakage (Network Rehabilitation & Active
Leakage Control) to 20% by 2040 from 29% (2010)

20% ? A saving of 10-15% in water demand was measured in the UK But consider the population density of south east England "Water resources are already under pressure in many parts of England, with some 25 million people living in areas where there is less available water per person than Spain or Morocco." and their fondness for watering gardens and you'll see that there won't be much scope for reducing water usage here by anything like 15% without charging extortionate prices.

And they want 20% reduction :eek:

So the meters will adsorb a lot of cash and we'll still need to build the infrastructure to take water from the Shannon to Dublin http://www.dublincity.ie/WATERWASTEENVIRONMENT/WATERPROJECTS/Pages/WaterSupplyProject-DublinRegion.aspx

What are the costs of bottled drinking water ,
using rain water for flushing toilets and
filtered rain water for washing ?

Biggins · 15-04-2012 6:14pm

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

God you are quite the rabble rouser on this thread.

Sow possible seeds of hatred? You have gone very Fox News on us Biggins. 2000 people at a protest? Wow, just wow. Is that even half of one percent of the population?

Its a percent that got up off their backside, like myself and my very old mother managed to.

As for sowing seeds of hatred, I don't think thats an exaggeration at all.
Are you espousing that FG and labour in their short time in power, have not done this?
Seriously?
* Remembers for example: a very recent thread about who is the most hated person recently!

P.S.
RTE said 4,000 and I thought I was safe being conservative. If they were also conservative by saying 4,000 - its still a hell of a lot of people.
People by the way like I and others who bothered to care that much, that we travelled right from one side of the country to the other.

greenpilot · 15-04-2012 6:17pm

What about those of us who have already paid for meters under a local group water scheme.. man am I glad I didn't pay that household charge..

Capt'n Midnight · 15-04-2012 6:19pm

DonalK1981 wrote: »

Isn't there a basic right of food and shelter, no one ever said anything about paying a broke Government for the privilege of clean water.

LOL

In the UK you couldn't cut off people for non payment of water rates. (or you had to go through procedures, and warnings)

Then they brought in pay as you flow water meters, if you don't pay you don't get water. Not fun on the breadline.

TheChizler · 15-04-2012 6:20pm

Unless it's specified It's really impossible to say who's paying for water at present. Since it all comes from a general fund, you could argue that over who pays a greater contribution than who. Higher earners who pay the higher rate pay the majority of income tax by far, should they get a larger tax rebate once the burden of paying for water through general taxation is removed? Last year the government's income from industry was over 3 times that from general taxes (CSO), should they get 3 times the rebate once paying via general taxation is removed? Commercial premises currently pay huge charges for water, should their rate be lowered once meters come in?

At least meters will let us know specifically who is paying for what, and give us some control over how much we contribute.

Skatedude · 15-04-2012 6:21pm

So, water is the most critical element for life, we can only survive a few days at most without it. and the government is going to do what if you dont have the money? its a death sentence

saa · 15-04-2012 6:25pm

They best be giving me a water filtration system, the perfectly fine tap water leaves green scum residue.

the bolt · 15-04-2012 6:28pm

Bullseye1 wrote: »

If people invested in their own pumps it would work out cheaper in the long run.

i know people who went down that route 30 years ago in rural donegal,my parents been 2 of them,i was down there a little over a year ago when a bill landed for over e800 for water ,cause she kept 2/3 cows the farm was classed as a bussiness.i told my ma at the time i would put in a new water feed for her but she wouldnt have none of it,i would if i lived there i can assure you.they comunity raised the cash years ago to install it and 30 years down the line they want to charge them for it,only in ireland.

The Waltzing Consumer · 15-04-2012 6:37pm

Biggins wrote: »

Its a percent that got up off their backside, like myself and my very old mother managed to.

As for sowing seeds of hatred, I don't think thats an exaggeration at all.
Are you espousing that FG and labour in their short time in power, have not done this?
Seriously?
* Remembers for example: a very recent thread about who is the most hated person recently!

P.S.
RTE said 4,000 and I thought I was safe being conservative. If they were also conservative by saying 4,000 - its still a hell of a lot of people.
People by the way like I and others who bothered to care that much, that we travelled right from one side of the country to the other.

If you care about something, fine, but the way you phrase it sounds bitter. Everyone does not have to do what you or your mother does and it does not mean that you or any protester are better then others. It is as invalid an arguement as people who presume unemployed won't get off their backsides to get a job.

Looking at recent polling numbers and being out and about shows a different story where the vast majority support the government and that life is not as bad as a lot of posters here would like us to believe.

Phill Ewinn · 15-04-2012 6:39pm

water meter gravy train. Looks like we'll have to pay pensions for another group of people to run the water scam.

Nice isn't it? Lucky I already have a water meter installed. A shovel, some hose and connections to bypass it.

Households must pay for water meters.

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