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N2 - Slane Bypass [planning decision pending]
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JupiterKid wrote: »That seems to be the real agenda here.
It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.0 -
JupiterKid wrote: »That seems to be the real agenda here.
It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Lol he has an agenda but nobody opposing him does!?
...This is a silly path of discussion to go down, it's a personal attack which is against the rules here. You're supposed to play the ball and not the man.0 -
Lol he has an agenda but nobody opposing him does!?
...This is a silly path of discussion to go down, it's a personal attack which is against the rules here. You're supposed to play the ball and not the man.0 -
And there's loads of others points on the north and south side with about the same kind of trips or longer.
You selecting a route (that isn't the most direct by any means) from two random points is not comparable to being unable to cross a river for a 30km round trip.
Edge to edge of the Dublin HGV ban is *far* less than 30km. You aren't going to find a single routing through it that's made 30km longer.
Please show us a more direct route outside the HGVs ban area.
I actually tried to make my route selection start/end points realistic -- one industrial estate to one district centre.
Again: Please show the routes you are talking about.Let's not get away from my valid point -- The points you made were factually incorrect and I've backed that up.
Nothing I said was factually incorrect. Selective "backing up" on your part is the lie here.
To add - the entire area inside the Dublin 5-axle ban is regional roads; Slane is a National Primary
The Dublin 5-axle ban still allows vehicles of a weight, size and handling characteristics which are not suited for Slane - which would almost inevitable get a 5 tonne ban instead.
The two are completely incomparable.
There you go again making factually incorrect statements.
You say inside the Dublin ban area there's only regional roads, but there are clearly a ton of national routes.0 -
To_be_confirmed wrote: »Lol he has an agenda but nobody opposing him does!?
...This is a silly path of discussion to go down, it's a personal attack which is against the rules here. You're supposed to play the ball and not the man.
You might take your own advice?!0 -
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You say inside the Dublin ban area there's only regional roads, but there are clearly a ton of national routes.
A tonne of former national routes, perhaps.0 -
Please show us a more direct route outside the HGVs ban area.
I actually tried to make my route selection start/end points realistic -- one industrial estate to one district centre.
And you went out of your way to reach the M50 and out of your way from the M50.Again: Please show the routes you are talking about.
Does your use of mapping software not extend to looking either side of an existing bridge?
Trucks did, and can still, cross the Liffey at Chapelizod, Lucan, Islandbridge (albeit there's not many places to go outside of the 5-axle ban from there) or by routing around the problem entirely by going through (well, around) Maynooth and heading north/south of the Liffey as required from there.
This is what they did prior to the M50 being built, as the M50 was an entirely new routing.There you go again making factually incorrect statements.
You say inside the Dublin ban area there's only regional roads, but there are clearly a ton of national routes.
There are no national routes of any description inside the 5-axle ban zone.
Nothing factually incorrect - you may wish to stop claiming that.0 -
Lol he has an agenda but nobody opposing him does!?
...This is a silly path of discussion to go down, it's a personal attack which is against the rules here. You're supposed to play the ball and not the man.
And if you want to talk about playing the ball not the man, then I'm afraid that boat has already sailed when tuathal posted this bilge about the people of Slane.
Some choice nuggets:They allowed their village to be used as a toll-bypassI have never met a nastier group of people in my life. Time and again people tried to reason with them, and offered to co-operate on finding a solution that met everyone's needs.
(translation: we told them "you little people should be delighted with an HGV ban")
Instead, nothing came back but personall abuse, false accusations and aggresive behaviour.
And my personal favourite:tuathal wrote:The people of Slane ... got what they deserve.
Look, Irish law is clear, before you put up a toll or an HGV ban, there must be alternative route that contains neither. The river in question doesn't have a whole lot of high quality toll free crossings to play around with.
And even if that could be got around and you could legally just put up "5 axle ban" signs around the village, that wouldn't change the fact that a National Primary Road goes through Slane on a set of very steep inclines, a severe bend or two and 400 year old, 1 lane bridge that can NEVER be modified.
Tuathal should just change his/her screenname to "Fuck Slane" and be done with it.0 -
To_be_confirmed wrote: »I just made a statement of fact, I could hardly be acting as a mod if I linked to the charter for example.
Ok. Grand.A tonne of former national routes, perhaps.
When exactly were the N11, N1, N2, N3, and N4 in the ban area downgraded from National Primary status?
National primary roads are defined by legislation, so you should be able to find the changes on http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/And you went out of your way to reach the M50 and out of your way from the M50.
No, it's just the most direct legal route around the ban area from the northside to the southside.
And I could have got longer distances (ie somewhere further east both on the northside and southside).Trucks did, and can still, cross the Liffey at Chapelizod, Lucan, Islandbridge (albeit there's not many places to go outside of the 5-axle ban from there) or by routing around the problem entirely by going through (well, around) Maynooth and heading north/south of the Liffey as required from there.
In short: You can't give an alternative route, can you?
Chapelizod, and Islandbridge: Main Street / Martin's Row have a 3 ton ban, the park excludes commercial traffic and all roads east of the park are in the ban area, so none of those work with the kind of trips we're talking about.
Lucan, Maynooth: Brings you way out of the way, way less direct than the M50.There are no national routes of any description inside the 5-axle ban zone.
Nothing factually incorrect - you may wish to stop claiming that.And if you want to talk about playing the ball not the man, then I'm afraid that boat has already sailed when tuathal posted this bilge about the
Sure, then he is just as bad.Look, Irish law is clear, before you put up a toll or an HGV ban, there must be alternative route that contains neither. The river in question doesn't have a whole lot of high quality toll free crossings to play around with.
Open to correction, but there is no law on this. If I'm wrong, you should be able to quote the law or case law.0 -
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When exactly were the N11, N1, N2, N3, and N4 in the ban area downgraded from National Primary status?
National primary roads are defined by legislation, so you should be able to find the changes on http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/
Look and you will find. They've been detrunked.No, it's just the most direct legal route around the ban area from the northside to the southside.
Its not the most direct. That's blantantly obvious by looking at it.In short: You can't give an alternative route, can you?
I've given alternative routes and you attempt to dismiss it as you're annoyed.
These are the routes that were used before the M50 opened and are still available should traffic not wish to pay the tolls. You do realise that before the M50 was built there were *no* bridges there, right?
An outdated map shows what, exactly?
Are you going to continue to compare a part-time 5-axle ban that was brought in when a free alternative route was built to a proposed "HGV" (presumably actually a 5T ban) with absolutely no alternative route? Because that *is* factually incorrect - unlike your repeated, unproven claims against me of that.0 -
Look and you will find. They've been detrunked.
If so please prove it. A link or the name of the act would be great!Its not the most direct. That's blantantly obvious by looking at it.
I've given alternative routes and you attempt to dismiss it as you're annoyed.
These are the routes that were used before the M50 opened and are still available should traffic not wish to pay the tolls. You do realise that before the M50 was built there were *no* bridges there, right?
It's simple: If there is a more direct route around the ban area please post a link to Google Maps showing it or describe the route.
As a reminder: The start/end points we were talking about are the Dublin Industrial Estate and the Swan Centre in Rathmines.An outdated map shows what, exactly?
The map is from a 2011 NRA report and the roads are shown the same way on the updated OSI maps on http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/Are you going to continue to compare a part-time 5-axle ban that was brought in when a free alternative route was built to a proposed "HGV" (presumably actually a 5T ban) with absolutely no alternative route? Because that *is* factually incorrect - unlike your repeated, unproven claims against me of that.
The free alternative is only for traffic to/from Dublin Port, it does not allow HGVs to avoid the ban area when going from the northside to the southside.
At the time of the HGV ban in the city it was also claimed that "there is no alternative".0 -
monument wrote:Open to correction, but there is no law on this. If I'm wrong, you should be able to quote the law or case law.
But like I said, it doesn't matter: an HGV ban won't do anything to counter the fact that the roads in the Slane area are totally unsuited to their use in the 21st century and cannot be fixed without new construction.
I really find it bizarre that anyong thinks an HGV ban is a suitable substitute for a bypass in this context.If so please prove it. A link or the name of the act would be great!
One, a recent thread on the matter: here
and Two, a link to the Ministerial Order.0 -
If so please prove it. A link or the name of the act would be great!
Roads Act 1993 (Classification of National Roads) Order 2012.The free alternative is only for traffic to/from Dublin Port, it does not allow HGVs to avoid the ban area when going from the northside to the southside.
The only through traffic of any consequence in the area was to/from Dublin Port.
The same cannot be said of a National Primary Route.At the time of the HGV ban in the city it was also claimed that "there is no alternative".
A free alternative of far higher standard was provided from the day the ban came in
Pushing up to a 30km round trip traffic towards the M1 (non-free) or R132 (poor standard) / M3 (non-free) or R147 (poor standard) across poor standard roads is not an alternative.
If you want to continue to compare these, you can only compare it to a ban on the "R135" through Slane once an N2 bypass has been built.0 -
It's simple: If there is a more direct route around the ban area please post a link to Google Maps showing it or describe the route.
As a reminder: The start/end points we were talking about are the Dublin Industrial Estate and the Swan Centre in Rathmines.
Take the R148 (former N4) in for starters - your route goes hilariously out of the way (Tallaght? Why?) to try and prove a point.0 -
IANAL, but I'm reasonably sure the government cannot just slap up an HGV ban without considering alternative routes, anymore than it can slap on a Motorway Regulation Order or a toll charge on a road that does not have an alternative route.
There's nothing stopping them legally from putting a HGV ban in.But like I said, it doesn't matter: an HGV ban won't do anything to counter the fact that the roads in the Slane area are totally unsuited to their use in the 21st century and cannot be fixed without new construction.
I really find it bizarre that anyong thinks an HGV ban is a suitable substitute for a bypass in this context.
Sure a HGV ban would do something -- it would take the main hazard off the bridge crossing and the roads leading up to it, including the hill in the village.Roads Act 1993 (Classification of National Roads) Order 2012.
Thanks -- did not realise the change had happened.
Good move overall, but will be a bit annoying when talking about the routes (N1 etc is easier to remember).The only through traffic of any consequence in the area was to/from Dublin Port.
You're claiming there's more local HGV traffic going from one side of Slane to the other than there is local HGV traffic (excluding port traffic) going from the northside within the M50 to the southside within the M50? Seems highly unlikely.The same cannot be said of a National Primary Route.
National Primary Roads can be reclassifiedTake the R148 (former N4) in for starters - your route goes hilariously out of the way (Tallaght? Why?) to try and prove a point.
Because that's what Google suggests.
I only picked the start / end points and a random way-point on the M50.0 -
There's nothing stopping them legally from putting a HGV ban in.Sure a HGV ban would do something -- it would take the main hazard off the bridge crossing and the roads leading up to it, including the hill in the village.
I am not aware of any precedent in Ireland (or anywhere else for that matter) where a lorry ban was imposed and there was not a better alternative route provided (Maynooth town R148 has toll free M4, Dublin City Centre has Port Tunnel, again toll free for lorries.) Enfield, on unclassified road, also has a lorry ban, but it has an R148 free bypass in addition to the tolled motorway running in paralell.
In short, I have never heard of an Irish HGV ban that did not have a high quality, toll free alternative close at hand, that HGV bans are always considered part of a plan that involves a bypass/alternative route, and Slane would be totally unprecedented if the Fuck Slane (a.k.a Save Newgrange) campaign were listened to.
Also, how do you propose that an HGV ban would solve the fundamental problems of the total inadequacy infrastructure in the local area, problems outlined above?0 -
You're claiming there's more local HGV traffic going from one side of Slane to the other than there is local HGV traffic (excluding port traffic) going from the northside within the M50 to the southside within the M50? Seems highly unlikely.
There is far more 5T+ traffic going along the N2 on routes which being sent to the N3 corridor or N1 corridor is a huge imposition; than there is 5 axle traffic going from small industrial estates to small shopping centres.
You still seem to be believing that the Dublin ban is banning the same kind of traffic - when its not. Many vehicles that are allowed in Dublin are still completely inappropriate for Slane.0 -
Around, just like the same traffic elsewhere.But is it a substitute for a bypass, that is what I asked?
Why should it have to be?I am not aware of any precedent in Ireland (or anywhere else for that matter) where a lorry ban was imposed and there was not a better alternative route provided (Maynooth town R148 has toll free M4, Dublin City Centre has Port Tunnel, again toll free for lorries.) Enfield, on unclassified road, also has a lorry ban, but it has an R148 free bypass in addition to the tolled motorway running in paralell.
In short, I have never heard of an Irish HGV ban that did not have a high quality, toll free alternative close at hand, that HGV bans are always considered part of a plan that involves a bypass/alternative route, and Slane would be totally unprecedented if the Fuck Slane (a.k.a Save Newgrange) campaign were listened to.
In Dublin going from the southside to the northside or to the port is tolled at the Westlink. This is a completely new and much longer route for traffic that used to be able to use the N4 and the quays etc to the port.Also, how do you propose that an HGV ban would solve the fundamental problems of the total inadequacy infrastructure in the local area, problems outlined above?
It would massively reduce the safety issue which is the core fundamental problem.0 -
You're claiming there's more local HGV traffic going from one side of Slane to the other than there is local HGV traffic (excluding port traffic) going from the northside within the M50 to the southside within the M50? Seems highly unlikely.
There is far more 5T+ traffic going along the N2 on routes which being sent to the N3 corridor or N1 corridor is a huge imposition; than there is 5 axle traffic going from small industrial estates to small shopping centres.
You still seem to be believing that the Dublin ban is banning the same kind of traffic - when its not. Many vehicles that are allowed in Dublin are still completely inappropriate for Slane.
Well then take the traffic which use to go from the N4 etc and along the quays to the port -- that traffic now has a long detour and a toll.0 -
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You're claiming there's more local HGV traffic going from one side of Slane to the other than there is local HGV traffic (excluding port traffic) going from the northside within the M50 to the southside within the M50? Seems highly unlikely.
There is far more 5T+ traffic going along the N2 on routes which being sent to the N3 corridor or N1 corridor is a huge imposition; than there is 5 axle traffic going from small industrial estates to small shopping centres.
You still seem to be believing that the Dublin ban is banning the same kind of traffic - when its not. Many vehicles that are allowed in Dublin are still completely inappropriate for Slane.
Well then take the traffic which use to go from the N4 etc and along the quays to the port -- that traffic now has a long detour and a toll.0 -
Well then take the traffic which use to go from the N4 etc and along the quays to the port -- that traffic now has a long detour and a toll.
As much traffic has been saved from a toll (that which was going to access the M50N via the R148 outbound; and that which needed the EastLink which is now free for banned traffic) as has been made pay a toll. And, as has been shown here, no traffic actually *has* to use the WestLink.
You're really getting desperate with the scrabbling now.
The two bans are completely and utterly incomparable - so please stop desperately trying.0 -
As much traffic has been saved from a toll (that which was going to access the M50N via the R148 outbound; and that which needed the EastLink which is now free for banned traffic) as has been made pay a toll. And, as has been shown here, no traffic actually *has* to use the WestLink.
You're really getting desperate with the scrabbling now.
The two bans are completely and utterly incomparable - so please stop desperately trying.
The Eastlink is free for banned traffic for access to/from the south second of the port and the port tunnel. It is not for north-south traffic.
Nobody is been made use the M50? Stop with the nonsense, what were already claimed as alternatives are [a] are not allow or are even longer detours than the M50, and none of them are of the "high quality" other posters here talk of.
The Dublin ban and a possible Slane ban are far more alike than you like to think, and I'm not desperately trying anything -- it's quite easy to pick holes in the anti-ban viewpoint.0 -
The Dublin ban and a possible Slane ban are far more alike than you like to think, and I'm not desperately trying anything -- it's quite easy to pick holes in the anti-ban viewpoint.
The "anti-ban viewpoint" shows prescisely where you're coming from here. Lets ignore the actual needs and slap an ban on and hope that stuff magically disappears...
I'm not anti-ban. I'm stating that a ban is impossible without the bypass. Two completely different things.
You are trying to compare two vastly different things and try to weasel out of situations relating to it when challenged - e.g. by providing convoluted versions of routes to make them appear longer or claiming that the roads which were used prior to the M50 being built aren't actually alternatives to it.0 -
The "anti-ban viewpoint" shows prescisely where you're coming from here. Lets ignore the actual needs and slap an ban on and hope that stuff magically disappears...
I'm not anti-ban. I'm stating that a ban is impossible without the bypass. Two completely different things.
You're not anti-ban and, sure, war is peace, and slavery is freedom... Fine, if it helps your sensibilities, let's call it the impossible viewpoint.
There was also an impossible viewpoint with the Dublin ban, but yet it has been possible.You are trying to compare two vastly different things and try to weasel out of situations relating to it when challenged - e.g. by providing convoluted versions of routes to make them appear longer or claiming that the roads which were used prior to the M50 being built aren't actually alternatives to it.
The then N4, including the quays, was one of the main routes to the port and now that is cut off due to the ban.- e.g. by providing convoluted versions of routes to make them appear longer
As I said Google suggested it -- please link to a better routing if you have one, but it does not seems like you do, does it?or claiming that the roads which were used prior to the M50 being built aren't actually alternatives to it.
The quays is within the ban area; routes west of the M50 are even further out of the way and do not meet the high quality requirement set down by other posters; and both the Chapelizod Bridge and Islandbridge don't legally bring HGVs anywhere too far north because the park has a commercial traffic ban, Main Street Chapelizod has a 3t ban and all ways around the park to the east are within the ban area.
Can you actually dispute what I'm saying or are you just going to try some more vague digs or vague claims?0 -
There was also an impossible viewpoint with the Dublin ban, but yet it has been possible.
All I remember was the calls to get the EastLink toll removed for banned traffic - which it wasThe then N4, including the quays, was one of the main routes to the port and now that is cut off due to the ban.
And the DPT replaced that.As I said Google suggested it -- please link to a better routing if you have one, but it does not seems like you do, does it?
Do you not read my posts? Go in by the N4 to the SCR. Takes a large chuck of the distance off. As opposed to going to Tallaght...Can you actually dispute what I'm saying or are you just going to try some more vague digs or vague claims?
I've disputed all of it
You act as if the routes that were used before the M50 have suddenly ceased to exist, hand-wave them away (Lucan) because they don't suit your argument.
I'm not going to even argue this with you any more - you appear to be determined to compare two incomparables. May have to get you some apples and oranges from the fruit and veg shop when I'm next there...0 -
And the DPT replaced that.
Just like the M1 and M3 can / have replace/d the N2 as a route!Do you not read my posts? Go in by the N4 to the SCR. Takes a large chuck of the distance off. As opposed to going to Tallaght...
The SCR is in the ban area!I've disputed all of it
As above, with so many errors!You act as if the routes that were used before the M50 have suddenly ceased to exist, hand-wave them away (Lucan) because they don't suit your argument.
You are still somehow acting as if going to Lucan via back roads is an alternative to the M50 to get to/from the northside to the southside inside the the M50?! :rolleyes:I'm not going to even argue this with you any more - you appear to be determined to compare two incomparables. May have to get you some apples and oranges from the fruit and veg shop when I'm next there...
You're not going to argue because you're clearly wrong on many points. But hey, talk to you some other time when you can again tell me black is white and white is black.0 -
Just like the M1 and M3 can / have replace/d the N2 as a route!
Except they haven't. The N2 is still a National Primary. Dublin port, however, wasn't even on a primary until it got the M50 DPT. If they "have" replaced the N2, why are people not using it?The SCR is in the ban area!
SCR on to the canal is not. Would have thought you'd know the ban area well enough - clearly not.As above, with so many errors!
Erm, no.You are still somehow acting as if going to Lucan via back roads is an alternative to the M50 to get to/from the northside to the southside inside the the M50?! :rolleyes:
Its the route that those who don't want to pay the M50 toll take; and its what was there before the M50, so you can drop the rolleyes.You're not going to argue because you're clearly wrong on many points. But hey, talk to you some other time when you can again tell me black is white and white is black.
You're the one who keeps crying wrong when, well, it isn't. Haven't been wrong on anything, and when you're shown that you just ignore it. Odd that...
You're completely and utterly unarguable with. Single issue pusher who won't see beyond that.0 -
Except they haven't. The N2 is still a National Primary. Dublin port, however, wasn't even on a primary until it got the M50 DPT. If they "have" replaced the N2, why are people not using it?
The N2 can be downgraded if that makes you feel any better.
Or we can wait a few years -- the Dublin ban area included national roads for what, six years?SCR on to the canal is not. Would have thought you'd know the ban area well enough - clearly not.
[1] Three ton ban applies to that section of the SCR
[2] traffic on the canal craws for half of the day...
[3] and there's also a right turn ban from the canal onto the Rathmines Road.
The route Google suggests starts to look ok.Its the route that those who don't want to pay the M50 toll take; and its what was there before the M50, so you can drop the rolleyes.
:rolleyes:
If such a poor route which takes HGVs so far out of the way is an alternative for Dublin, then something like it or better is ok for Slane?You're the one who keeps crying wrong when, well, it isn't. Haven't been wrong on anything, and when you're shown that you just ignore it. Odd that...
Yes, you have been wrong. Wrong about the SCR, wrong about Islandbridge (which I forgot is also in the ban area), etcYou're completely and utterly unarguable with. Single issue pusher who won't see beyond that.
Go on, forget the rules and try to attack me, because you're not doing very well defending all of the flaws in your arguments.0 -
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The N2 can be downgraded if that makes you feel any better.
I'd imagine any HGV ban, if it were to happen, would also involve detrunking of the N2 between the end of the Ashbourne bypass and Ardee, and reclassifying the N33 as N2. You'd be left with a fairly major re-signing job in order to sign Derry traffic to go by the M1, but it could be done. There'd be the problem of what to do with the M2, (which would become a fairly major white elephant, as I'd imagine its traffic volumes would significantly decrease) but I'd keep it motorway and under NRA control, probably as either the M34 or M88.0
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