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Reclassification of roads (28 February 2012)

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  • 16-03-2012 8:45pm
    #1
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭


    As we've gradually been discovering in the N40 Cork South Ring thread, the Minister for Transport issued two ministerial orders on the 28th of February, reclassifying a number of roads. I think this warrants its own thread.

    For reference
    National Roads
    Regional Roads

    Changes spotted so far:
    • N25 reclassified as N40 from junction with N22 to Jack Lynch Tunnel
    • N1, N2, N3, N4 and N81 detrunked within M50 and reclassified as regional roads
    • N11 also reclassified regional from the city centre to its junction with the N31
    • N32 detrunked, reclassified regional

    Credit to munchkin_utd, MYOB and csd for discovering most of this.

    I'm sure there's some more stuff in there yet to be found.


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    #2
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    • N32 is now R139
    • N81 (inside M50) is now R137
    • N11 (City Centre to junction with N31 Mount Merrion Avenue) is now R138

    N1, N2, N3, N4 (inside M50) now use the same R numbers as bypassed former sections of their routes outside the M50 (i.e. R132, R135, R147, R148 respectively)


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    #3
    Jayuu
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    If the N32 no longer exists, then what is the section between Clonshaugh Road and the M50 roundabout designated as? It seems to be one of those grey areas.

    I know on OpenStreetMap and Google maps this section of road and the M50 roundabout are shown as the N32 but this was always incorrect in my opinion because the NRA maps always showed the main roundabout and the link to Bewley's roundabout as motorway. The OSI interactive map matches the NRA map but neither has a desingnation for this section.

    That being said the listing of the R139 under Regional Roads has in brackets "Part of old N32 route" which would seem to indicate that there still is some section of it in existence although there is no N32 listed under National Roads.


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    #4
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,823 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Since the junction was redesigned, the top of the roundabout is not realistically a motorway mainline at all.

    Anyway, there's no legal impediment to any road being M-classified in part in Ireland, you could have a M10000 motorway classified local road


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    #5
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,847 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    despite what most maps and EVEN county council tendering documents state, the N80 does NOT run north of Tullamore towards Clara and is confirmed in the new roads classification (I think this was the case in the old documents but here it is reiterated)

    The old N80 north of Tullamore is now an extension of the R420 which starts at the old N7 south of Monasterevin through Portarlington to Tullamore.

    And onto a related road, well one that also goes through Tullamore!!
    The N52 is now shorter!!!
    It begins at Ardee rather than Dundalk before going on its wander across the land (the M1 and link road to Ardee being its replacement to get from Dundalk).
    The stretch of "old N52" is now not even a regional road.


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    #6
    Jayuu
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    MYOB wrote: »
    Since the junction was redesigned, the top of the roundabout is not realistically a motorway mainline at all.

    Anyway, there's no legal impediment to any road being M-classified in part in Ireland, you could have a M10000 motorway classified local road

    I understand that, but its shown as motorway on all the official maps so I always wonder about its designation. To be honest that whole area is a bit of a mess from a designation point of view since the upgrade.

    Even the EXIT sign when you come to the roundabout from the M50 Northbound is wrong because it shows the flyover as the exit as opposed to the section that continues to the roundabout. I'm sure a lot of people get confused by that.

    I'm wondering if all the signage here that has N32 on it will now replaced. There's quite a lot of it if you consider the M50 and M1 signage all have N32 signage on the approach and the N32 is painted on the road as you approach from Belfast.


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    #7
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    <snip>
    And onto a related road, well one that also goes through Tullamore!!
    The N52 is now shorter!!!
    It begins at Ardee rather than Dundalk before going on its wander across the land (the M1 and link road to Ardee being its replacement to get from Dundalk).
    The stretch of "old N52" is now not even a regional road.

    I noticed the cull regarding that stretch of the N52 - what's really funny is that there's AFAIK, a fairly substantial realignment taking place on the stretch at Mapastown! To confirm it's between Ardee and Dundalk, here's the Location Map! I remember listing a notice regarding the scheme a while back on the 'Tender Watch for Roads' thread.

    Regards!


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    #8
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,847 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    ok, not sure if its really relevant to this thread but it is noticable how far out the google maps(aka teleatlas) are from reality and not just in not keeping track of redesignation of old national primary and secondary roads.

    In cities like cork theres just sections of roads classified as regional by law marked on the map as not classified at all.
    i.e. here the missing 2.7km off the beginning of the R608 from Cork City Centre to Ballincollig via Model farm road.
    I could probably pull a whole load of other examples if I could be bothered.

    On the face of it that is nothing serious.
    But in practical terms its a less than positive ommission as your sat nav uses road classification as a primary category of how it works out your route.
    This will become VERY VERY aparant to anyone who has tried to drive in Cork city centre where your sat nav wants to bring you on a wild goose chase over and back across the river in an attempt to stay on National and Regional classified road rathen than bring you straight the few 100m down the quays!!


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    #9
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,786 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    notice that the R999, the over-engineered port access route in Wicklow town is not listed - does this mean its short time as an R road is over?


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    #10
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Detrunking the N52 between Ardee and Dundalk not a bad idea.
    Likewise that ghost section of N80 Tullamore-Moate.
    Likewise the N40 for Cork City, if the N25 is the main route from Cork to the East, then I guess it does make some sense to end the N25 at Dunkettle and have a new national road covering the South Ring.

    But de-trunking all the main roads going into Dublin City ... what the F@#%???


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    #11
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭mackerski


    These changes, at least the ones highlighted here, have been updated on OpenStreetMap. Until all tiles re-render you might see some outdated content, but anybody spotting apparent errors, please shout.

    Thanks for spotting this!


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    #12
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,823 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I wonder were some of the current N52 works pushed through in the knowledge that they couldn't be NRA funded after the end of February?


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    #13
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Fairly sure the NRA now controls regional roads. It would be bizarre to downgrade this road to anything less than that.


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    #14
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,823 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    SeanW wrote: »
    Fairly sure the NRA now controls regional roads. It would be bizarre to downgrade this road to anything less than that.

    They don't, yet anyway. R road funding is still councils own or council+DOT.

    One of the biggest road projects that is actually definitely starting this year is a Kildare CC with DOT money job on the R402 for instance.


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    #15
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Still ambigous on the N62...it should not start in Fardrum ( which is where it branched off the old N6) but clearly at the Motorway in Creggan Lower.

    Click and select Street Map on right!

    http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,607481,740627,5,7


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    #16
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    etchyed wrote: »
    As we've gradually been discovering in the N40 Cork South Ring thread, the Minister for Transport issued two ministerial orders on the 28th of February, reclassifying a number of roads. I think this warrants its own thread.

    For reference
    National Roads
    Regional Roads
    Thanks Etchyhed


    The previous General Classification was in 2006.

    National Roads (2006)
    Regional Roads (2006)

    Prior to 2006 the previous reclassification occured in 1994 after the Roads Act of 1993 was enacted.

    National Roads 1994
    Regional Roads 1994

    HTH


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    #17
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    SeanW wrote: »
    But de-trunking all the main roads going into Dublin City ... what the F@#%???
    I presume this has something to do with who has responsibility for maintenance. Perhaps the Department of Transport has decided that it doesn't make sense to have the NRA responsible for the quays or O'Connell Street, for example.

    From a navigational point of view, however, it makes no sense. It's a shame that road classification has to be so closely linked to whose control the road comes under.

    I've always thought that the UK system was too complicated, with trunk roads and A roads not necessarily being the same thing. But now I see the sense in it. It should be possible for the roads to be detrunked (moving them from the NRA to county council hands) whilst keeping their N numbers and maintaining their status as national routes.

    We now have a situation where dual carriageways that carry lots of traffic and are clearly of national importance are shown as minor R-roads on maps. It's ridiculous.


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    #18
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,855 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Its a shame that the N roads inside the M50 have been detrunked. They were really handy as a navigational aid.


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    #19
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Its a shame that the N roads inside the M50 have been detrunked. They were really handy as a navigational aid.
    Ah, but you missed my point. It's not really a shame that they've been detrunked. What is a shame is that this detrunking unnecessarily causes an automatic renumbering to R-road.


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    #20
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    N82 gone - good, N87 stays - bad, N33 from Ardee to M1 should have been re-classified as part of the N52.


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    #21
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭SeanW


    etchyed wrote: »
    I presume this has something to do with who has responsibility for maintenance. Perhaps the Department of Transport has decided that it doesn't make sense to have the NRA responsible for the quays or O'Connell Street, for example.
    Yes perhaps, but the Chapelizod Bypass? It's a dual carriageway that has considerable national use - i.e. it's not a city street.

    I used to live in Drumcondra and every weekend I would go down to the country (on the N4). While I might agree that the N1 detrunking in the city was not the worst idea (Drumcondra Road, Dorset St. etc are basically city streets and as for O'Connell St ... don't get me started). But for me it would always have been the case that I would go down the quays to pick up the N4, it becomes a dual carriageway there around Heuston and remains a dual carriageway in one form or another until just after Mullingar.

    With the city (ex) N4 section being the main route not just for the Sligo/Longford road but also Galway and Westport roads plus the suggested route for drivers going to Cork, Limerick and Waterford (as opposed to going out the Naas Road) I am not going to be the only one with the view that the N4 was correctly labelled in the city as a National route.

    You're also right about navigation - even if these are city streets, the N designations help with navigation. The whole thing is bizarre.


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    #22
    whyulittle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭whyulittle


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Still ambigous on the N62...it should not start in Fardrum ( which is where it branched off the old N6) but clearly at the Motorway in Creggan Lower.

    Click and select Street Map on right!

    http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,607481,740627,5,7

    Odd that the R446 branches off in the town centre and goes a short stretch out the N55 Ballymahon Road.


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    #23
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,613 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    IMO the detrunking of the National primary routes within the M50 is a stupid move. Just because the M50 loosely defines Dublin doesn't mean that the radial N routes within the M50 are any less important.

    The N87 serves no purpose any more and should have been detrunked. Same goes for the N83.


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    #24
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    N82 gone - good, N87 stays - bad, N33 from Ardee to M1 should have been re-classified as part of the N52.

    ...or reclassify the N52 as the N33 - it's basically the road from:

    Belfast to Galway (via M6 from Tyrrellspass);
    Belfast to Limerick (via M7 from Nenagh);
    Belfast to Cork (via M7/N20 from Nenagh) - one alternative to M1/M50/M7/M8;
    Belfast to Cork (via N62/M8 from Birr) - another alternative to M1/M50/M7/M8.

    It might indeed be time to consider National Primary Status for this road!


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    #25
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,520 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    SeanW wrote: »
    Yes perhaps, but the Chapelizod Bypass? It's a dual carriageway that has considerable national use - i.e. it's not a city street.

    I used to live in Drumcondra and every weekend I would go down to the country (on the N4). While I might agree that the N1 detrunking in the city was not the worst idea (Drumcondra Road, Dorset St. etc are basically city streets and as for O'Connell St ... don't get me started). But for me it would always have been the case that I would go down the quays to pick up the N4, it becomes a dual carriageway there around Heuston and remains a dual carriageway in one form or another until just after Mullingar.

    With the city (ex) N4 section being the main route not just for the Sligo/Longford road but also Galway and Westport roads plus the suggested route for drivers going to Cork, Limerick and Waterford (as opposed to going out the Naas Road) I am not going to be the only one with the view that the N4 was correctly labelled in the city as a National route.

    Yeah, it kinda undoes the work that was done in the early 1990s when the N7 was detrunked inside the M50 and N7 traffic signed to use the Chapelizod bypass. It also raises a huge question as regards how these new regional roads will be signed in Dublin city, as the normal R-road practice of simply signing the next primary destination (so signs on the Chapelizod that now should read "Sligo" - but in fact still read "The West and South" - would be signed "Palmerston" instead) would be very inappropriate for the main road out of the city to Cork and Limerick.


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    #26
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Irish and Proud wrote: »
    ...or reclassify the N52 as the N33 - it's basically the road from:
    .

    It might indeed be time to consider National Primary Status for this road!

    or reclassify the N33 as the N2

    ;)


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    #27
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    openstreetmap has been comprehensively updated to take account of the recent reclassification round - gone are the National Routes within the M50 Dublin Ring (except the N31 and part of the N11), the N32 (M50 to Malahide Road), the N52 from Ardee to Dundalk and the N71 within the N40 CSRR (yep, that's done as well)!

    :):):)


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    #28
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,967 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Really not thrilled about the detrunking inside the M50. Legally, we should create a possibility now of maintaining the route numbers there but making an exception regarding their control - they should be made national routes under the control of the Dublin city councils. Changes to O'Connell St, Dorset St., etc. would still stand.

    In any case, it takes us a decade sometimes to update signage in Ireland, so I wouldn't anticipate any changes on the ground for some time :) That will give us time to make a compromise.


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    #29
    Jayuu
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    Irish and Proud wrote: »
    openstreetmap has been comprehensively updated to take account of the recent reclassification round - gone are the National Routes within the M50 Dublin Ring (except the N31 and part of the N11), the N32 (M50 to Malahide Road), the N52 from Ardee to Dundalk and the N71 within the N40 CSRR (yep, that's done as well)!

    :):):)

    Pity whoever did the change didn't correct the M50 to R139 and the roundabout. The document clearly states that the route begins at the "junction with M50 link road at Clonshaugh Road" so clearly the link road and the roundabout are not part of the R139.


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    #30
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭mackerski


    Jayuu wrote: »
    Pity whoever did the change didn't correct the M50 to R139 and the roundabout. The document clearly states that the route begins at the "junction with M50 link road at Clonshaugh Road" so clearly the link road and the roundabout are not part of the R139.

    It's an interesting point, but one that leaves us with a problem - how to classify the spur from the Bewley's roundabout to the M50 roundabout. In the past this was M32, since it led inescapably to a motorway and because the N32 still existed for it to be a part of.

    Since the upgrade of the M50/M1 junction, all motorway to motorway movements bypass the roundabout. Presumably in recognition of this, there are now end of motorway signs as you approach the roundabout from the northern cross section of M50. It's hard to see how the spur could be considered to belong to a non-motorway section of N50 or N1. Nor can it belong to N32 which is no longer acknowledged in the SI text.

    The intuitive thing here is to consider R139 as going all the way to the M50 roundabout. It would be tempting to consider this version to be a simple search and replace on the old N32 order, except that it too should have reached the big roundabout (and there were at least some signs that indicated this spur to be part of N32).

    While it doesn't help us get to an unambiguous fact about this section, I will note that there are visible errors and inconsistencies in these documents. The most obvious concerns the R215. You will find this referred to in the text but nowhere is its own route defined (it's part of what used to be R132, formerly N1, through Dundalk).

    So, better suggestions welcomed for what what number to assign to a road with no motorway regulations separating a regional road from the motorways on which it seems to want to terminate.


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    #31
    Jayuu
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    It is a tricky one all right but given that the document here seems so specific and that this was a road that was altered, one would think that some consideration was given with regard to the status of the spur.

    Technically not all motorway-motorway movements bypass the roundabout. In fact all the previous motorway-motorway movements are still available so an argument can be made that the roundabout is still part of the motorway. Therefore the slip road would inescapably lead to a motorway so technically is still a motorway itself.

    To be honest this whole section is a bit of a mess from a signage/designation issue which is probably why its never been cleared up properly. Even the exit sign when you approach the roundabout from the M50 points the wrong way.


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