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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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    #2102
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    So do you think we should have the same system here or not?

    I never said we should. I'm in favour of a property tax - let's see what's formulated for the tiered system and how well that works. Could be great, could be poorly set up. The principle is fine however.


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    #2103
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    alastair wrote: »
    I never said we should. I'm in favour of a property tax - let's see what's formulated for the tiered system and how well that works. Could be great, could be poorly set up. The principle is fine however.

    The principle of the English system?


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    #2104
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    alastair wrote: »
    I never said we should. I'm in favour of a property tax - let's see what's formulated for the tiered system and how well that works. Could be great, could be poorly set up. The principle is fine however.

    Would you prefer to know what it is you are signing up to first? The principle is not fine imo when some people pay more for the same services.


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    #2105
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    The principle of the English system?

    The principle of property taxation.


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    #2106
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Plain sailing for 'Nama developer' Cotter in Caribbean as marina lies in limbo back home

    A spot of sailing in the Caribbean while a team of builders puts the finishing touches to a new garage big enough for 12 cars at one's mansion in Foxrock.


    It probably isn't what Nama chairman Frank Daly had in mind when he vowed that the developers on the bad bank's books would be forced to adjust to what he called the new realities.


    But it's exactly what Park Developments chief Michael Cotter has been busying himself with as his company waits for news from Nama on funding for the completion of phase two of the new marina at Greystones harbour.
    While residents of the north Wicklow town look out at a derelict site where the marina's facilities were supposed to be, Mr Cotter has been taking in the clear blue waters off the Caribbean island of St Bart's from the deck of his €1m yacht, Whisper, while workers at his home on Westminster Road have only recently finished off a 1,700 sq ft building for his collection of cars.


    Mr Cotter's 12-car garage comes equipped with its own under-floor heating, which motoring experts say would have been installed to ensure the interiors of his vehicles are maintained at a constant temperature. Quite apart from the accommodation it provides to the Park Developments chief's four-wheeled friends, the recently completed building has additional space for the ". . .applicant's hobby of restoration", according to plans lodged with Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council.
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/plain-sailing-for-nama-developer-cotter-in-caribbean-as-marina-lies-in-limbo-back-home-3074302.html

    Household charge 100 Euro.

    Backwards this country is going.


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    #2107
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    alastair wrote: »
    The principle of property taxation.

    Like the English system as you suggested earlier?
    Don't be backtracking now.


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    #2108
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    hondasam wrote: »
    Would you prefer to know what it is you are signing up to first? The principle is not fine imo when some people pay more for the same services.

    You're not paying for services - you're paying a tax on your asset (the house) - which is allocated to local authority services.


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    #2109
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Like the English system as you suggested earlier?
    Don't be backtracking now.

    I suggested no such thing.


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    #2110
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    alastair wrote: »
    No. This tax (or the tiered system we'll soon be paying proper money into) equates more closely to the UK Council Charge - an equitable arrangement that people may not like paying, but are prepared to stand over. The Council Charge replaced the inequitable Poll Tax - where major flat charges applied to mansion owners and bedsit renters alike.

    It's ok. I know you don't want to let dv down.
    I know where your coming from but it's ok to admit you've been wrong before.
    In fact, I'd have more respect for you if you did.;)


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    #2111
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    It's ok. I know you don't want to let dv down.
    I know where your coming from but it's ok to admit you've been wrong before.
    In fact, I'd have more respect for you if you did.;)

    Is there something there that makes you believe I'm advocating a UK rates system for here, or that the Council Charge is a property tax? Feel free to highlight it if so.


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    #2112
    Smidge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    Friends of mine live outside of Liverpool and have a normal 3 bed bungalow. Their council tax is £1930 PA. Are we headed in that direction?


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    #2113
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    alastair wrote: »
    You're not paying for services - you're paying a tax on your asset (the house) - which is allocated to local authority services.

    What? have you actually read what you posted?

    I'm not paying for services but the tax on my house will pay for said service. Seriously Alastair this is the same thing.


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    #2114
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    You're not paying for services - you're paying a tax on your asset (the house) - which is allocated to local authority services.

    So people that bought a home, are in a better financial postion to pay more tax than a non home owner then? Or than a LA tennant?


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    #2115
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    mishkalucy wrote: »
    Friends of mine live outside of Liverpool and have a normal 3 bed bungalow. Their council tax is £1930 PA. Are we headed in that direction?
    Give them a ring and ask what they get for their money.
    Ask them do they have to pay for school books for the kids.
    Ask them how much do they pay for a doctors visit.
    Ask them do they pay extra to have their bins collected.
    Ask them is there free school transport.
    Ask them do they pay VAT on top of VRT for their car.
    Ask them how much is their road tax.

    Tell them about our system of stealth taxes and ask them who's better off.


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    #2116
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    hondasam wrote: »
    What? have you actually read what you posted?

    I'm not paying for services but the tax on my house will pay for said service. Seriously Alastair this is the same thing.

    It's not. You're not buying specific services with your tax. You're being taxed on the asset itself - it's academic (in terms of what non house-owners pay) that the money goes to LA funding. The tax would have as much validity if the money went elsewhere to serve other state overheads.


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    #2117
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    So people that bought a home, are in a better financial postion to pay more tax than a non home owner then? Or than a LA tennant?

    That own an asset, that tenants (of any variety) do not. To that extent, yes.


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    #2118
    Smidge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Give them a ring and ask what they get for their money.
    Ask them do they have to pay for school books for the kids.
    Ask them how much do they pay for a doctors visit.
    Ask them do they pay extra to have their bins collected.
    Ask them is there free school transport.
    Ask them do they pay VAT on top of VRT for their car.
    Ask them how much is their road tax.

    Tell them about our system of stealth taxes and ask them who's better off.

    They pay for some school books and school supplies etc.
    Admittedly, their medical system is far superior to ours and we have had many conversations about the same with their mouths wide open.
    Their bin system is crappy, no wheelie bins, just very small crates that they have to drag out to the road(not ideal for elderly folk and not very hygenic either).
    No free school transport in their area.
    Their road is a dirt track as even though they pay this very high tax it is an "un-adopted" road and therefore the councils loophole to not do anything with it


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    #2119
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    alastair wrote: »
    You're not paying for services - you're paying a tax on your asset (the house) - which is allocated to local authority services.


    the gubbernment says we are Alastair......

    Revenues from the household charge will support the provision of local services.


    https://www.householdcharge.ie


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    #2120
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    alastair wrote: »
    It's not. You're not buying specific services with your tax. You're being taxed on the asset itself - it's academic (in terms of what non house-owners pay) that the money goes to LA funding. The tax would have as much validity if the money went elsewhere to serve other state overheads.

    I apologise in advance for this but you are talking utter bollox.
    You have stated all along several times in fact the HHS is for paying local services. Why are you twisting it to suit your own agenda all the time?


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    #2121
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    the gubbernment says we are Alastair......

    Revenues from the household charge will support the provision of local services.


    https://www.householdcharge.ie

    You're not paying for services - you're paying a tax on your asset (the house) - which is allocated to local authority services.


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    #2122
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    That own an asset, that tenants (of any variety) do not. To that extent, yes.

    Explain how a family in a home, have more money each week to pay extra tax then? Compared to a LA tenant, or an unfinished estate house?

    Presumably the unfinished estate house is perfectly habitable. And is an asset by your definition?


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    #2123
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    hondasam wrote: »
    I apologise in advance for this but you are talking utter bollox.
    You have stated all along several times in fact the HHS is for paying local services. Why are you twisting it to suit your own agenda all the time?

    I'm not twisting anything. The point of the tax isn't that it creates a common ground for funding local authority services (and therefore there should be an onus on renters to pay more also) - it's a tax on the asset (the property). That the money is undoubtedly going 100% to local authority services is essentially besides the point (in terms of the principle of property taxation).


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    #2124
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    I'm not twisting anything. The point of the tax isn't that it creates a common ground for funding local authority services (and therefore there should be an onus on renters to pay more also) - it's a tax on the asset (the property). That the money is undoubtedly going 100% to local authority services is essentially besides the point (in terms of the principle of property taxation).


    So what your saying is, home owners tax is going to fund services. But the home owner is not being taxd for that reason. They are simply being taxed for being wealthy?


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    #2125
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    alastair wrote: »
    You're not paying for services - you're paying a tax on your asset (the house) - which is allocated to local authority services.

    they shouldnt have called it a charge then, them pesky kids

    charge/CHärj/

    Verb: Demand (an amount) as a price from someone for a service rendered or goods supplied.


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    #2126
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Explain how a family in a home, have more money each week to pay extra tax then? Compared to a LA tenant, or an unfinished estate house?

    Presumably the unfinished estate house is perfectly habitable. And is an asset by your definition?

    The unfinished estate exemption is only there because the charge is currently administered by the local authority - who aren't in any position to levy a tax on a property they can't service. If the revenue take over that may well change. I'm sure there are some very valuable properties on unfinished estates.

    There are undoubedly some very wealthy renters - who could afford to pay heaps of taxes above and beyond a house owner - but obviously not a 'property' tax. Just as there are very wealthy taxpayers who don't drive, and are therefore not liable for motor taxation.


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    #2127
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    they shouldnt have called it a charge then, them pesky kids

    charge/CHärj/

    Verb:Demand (an amount) as a price from someone for a service rendered or goods supplied.

    What service do you get for your USC?


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    #2128
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    So what your saying is, home owners tax is going to fund services. But the home owner is not being taxd for that reason. They are simply being taxed for being wealthy?

    Bingo! It's a wealth tax.


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    #2129
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    alastair wrote: »
    I'm not twisting anything. The point of the tax isn't that it creates a common ground for funding local authority services (and therefore there should be an onus on renters to pay more also) - it's a tax on the asset (the property). That the money is undoubtedly going 100% to local authority services is essentially besides the point (in terms of the principle of property taxation).

    I must be having my blonde moment of the day because it amounts to the same thing to me.
    Household charge is a tax to fund local services Yes or No?
    If the answer is Yes then everyone should be paying it.


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    #2130
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    The unfinished estate exemption is only there because the charge is currently administered by the local authority - who aren't in any position to levy a tax on a property they can't service. If the revenue take over that may well change. I'm sure there are some very valuable properties on unfinished estates.
    You just said its a tax on home owners for owning property, not a charge for services. Unfinished estate owners still own thier house.
    There are undoubedly some very wealthy renters - who could afford to pay heaps of taxes above and beyond a house owner - but obviously not a 'property' tax. Just as there are very wealthy taxpayers who don't drive, and are therefore not liable for motor taxation.

    Twisting again. The question was, how does a person that bought a home, have more means to pay extra taxes, than a non home owner? You seem to believe they have. Explain how?


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    #2131
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    alastair wrote: »
    Bingo! It's a wealth tax.

    So, let me get this straight.
    Someone who bought their house for say, €500,000 and has a mortgage of maybe €350,000 whose house is now worth €200,000 is wealthy?


This discussion has been closed.
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