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Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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    #7262
    Flincher
    Registered Users Posts: 686 ✭✭✭Flincher


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Why is there a DOC vs DOC2.0 debate? One's a lock, one's a backrow.

    Which one to drop for Ryan I suppose.


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    #7263
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Why is there a DOC vs DOC2.0 debate? One's a lock, one's a backrow.

    DOCv2.0 is a converted lock though, it's been suggested he'll end up back there.


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    #7264
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Flincher wrote: »
    Which one to drop for Ryan I suppose.
    Its a silly debate, Ryan is a better lock than backrow.


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    #7265
    Fireball07
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Its a silly debate, Ryan is a better lock than backrow.

    Which is my argument. I think DOC is a better lock than DOC2 is a back row. But I think the difference between Ryan playing lock and back row is significant enough. DOC2 is a much more dynamic ball carrier in the back row and is very strong in defence too.


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    #7266
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    Which is my argument. I think DOC is a better lock than DOC2 is a back row. But I think the difference between Ryan playing lock and back row is significant enough. DOC2 is a much more dynamic ball carrier in the back row and is very strong in defence too.

    Tbf, DOC doesn't carry at all, so that's not much of an accolade.


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    #7267
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77895933&postcount=3593

    Post on the Connacht thread re Fogarty heading to France, anyone got any details.


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    #7268
    PhatPiggins
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭PhatPiggins


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    Which is my argument. I think DOC is a better lock than DOC2 is a back row. But I think the difference between Ryan playing lock and back row is significant enough. DOC2 is a much more dynamic ball carrier in the back row and is very strong in defence too.

    Ryan is a better second row than DOC and a better backrow then DOC2.

    I don't know if that adds to the arguement though :pac:


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    #7269
    PhatPiggins
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭PhatPiggins


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77895933&postcount=3593

    Post on the Connacht thread re Fogarty heading to France, anyone got any details.

    Unconfirmed which club he's going to but he's told Cork Con's coaching staff thats where he'll be next season.

    I'll give you more details when I hear them


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    #7270
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77895933&postcount=3593

    Post on the Connacht thread re Fogarty heading to France, anyone got any details.

    France is a large country on mainland Europe. It's capital city is Paris and it is a constitutional democracy.


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    #7271
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Good luck to him, it's a shame he never got his throwing right. Other parts of his game like carrying ability and work rate were excellent.

    So our hookers next season will be Varley, Sherry and Henry with Casey and Scannell already in the academy system.


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    #7272
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Good luck to him, it's a shame he never got his throwing right. Other parts of his game like carrying ability and work rate were excellent.

    So our hookers next season will be Varley, Sherry and Henry with Casey and Scannell already in the academy system.

    True, Fogs would be a top level player but for it. A new start could be great for him.


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    #7273
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Good luck to him, it's a shame he never got his throwing right. Other parts of his game like carrying ability and work rate were excellent.

    So our hookers next season will be Varley, Sherry and Henry with Casey and Scannell already in the academy system.

    How highly is Scannell rated?

    In the England game he seemed to be a great leader in the pack. England scored a try right in front of me and he grabbed the pack and you could see them pick up a bit. I was impressed by that, and he did it a few other times. Is he a good player though?


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    #7274
    PhatPiggins
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭PhatPiggins


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Good luck to him, it's a shame he never got his throwing right. Other parts of his game like carrying ability and work rate were excellent.

    So our hookers next season will be Varley, Sherry and Henry with Casey and Scannell already in the academy system.

    Handy players but a huge step down from Flannery. If you could combine Varley and Sherry we'd be laughing. One guys strenghts are the other guys weaknesses and vice versa. We could end up luring Sean Cronin home yet.


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    #7275
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    How highly is Scannell rated?

    In the England game he seemed to be a great leader in the pack. England scored a try right in front of me and he grabbed the pack and you could see them pick up a bit. I was impressed by that, and he did it a few other times. Is he a good player though?

    He'll need to improve his throwing if he's going to have any chance.


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    #7276
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    PhatPiggins wrote: »
    Handy players but a huge step down from Flannery. If you could combine Varley and Sherry we'd be laughing. One guys strenghts are the other guys weaknesses and vice versa. We could end up luring Sean Cronin home yet.

    Sherry could be very good if he can get just a bit bigger.


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    #7277
    Flincher
    Registered Users Posts: 686 ✭✭✭Flincher


    PhatPiggins wrote: »
    Ryan is a better second row than DOC and a better backrow then DOC2.

    I don't know if that adds to the arguement though :pac:

    No I think you've settled it.

    We should go with Ryan and O'Callaghan. :D


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    #7278
    PhatPiggins
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭PhatPiggins


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    Sherry could be very good if he can get just a bit bigger.

    If he got bigger he'd lose half of his dynamism. I actually think the fact that he's great in very open spaces is hiding the fact that he's not so hot in tight spaces and I'm not convinced he's a better scrumager than Varley. He's throwing is top notch though.


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    #7279
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    PhatPiggins wrote: »
    If he got bigger he'd lose half of his dynamism. I actually think the fact that he's great in very open spaces is hiding the fact that he's not so hot in tight spaces and I'm not convinced he's a better scrumager than Varley. He's throwing is top notch though.

    It's very hard to know what happens in scrums but scrums seem to be better with Sherry on, however, that could be as a result of changes later in games when Sherry tends to come on.


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    #7280
    Flincher
    Registered Users Posts: 686 ✭✭✭Flincher


    PhatPiggins wrote: »
    Handy players but a huge step down from Flannery. If you could combine Varley and Sherry we'd be laughing. One guys strenghts are the other guys weaknesses and vice versa. We could end up luring Sean Cronin home yet.

    I wouldn't be too pushed about bringing Cronin back to be honest. I've fairly high hopes for Sherry, I was expecting a big season from him, but injuries messed it up. I think he'll be starting next year once he gets a run of games.

    There is still plenty of time for him to resolve his throwing - it took Fla a while as well. His ball carrying is excellent (he played No. 8 and threw into the lineout for Ardscoil Ris). I wouldn't be surprised to see him turn out as good a player as Cronin is (bar the pace obviously).


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    #7281
    PhatPiggins
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭PhatPiggins


    Flincher wrote: »
    I wouldn't be too pushed about bringing Cronin back to be honest. I've fairly high hopes for Sherry, I was expecting a big season from him, but injuries messed it up. I think he'll be starting next year once he gets a run of games.

    There is still plenty of time for him to resolve his throwing - it took Fla a while as well. His ball carrying is excellent (he played No. 8 and threw into the lineout for Ardscoil Ris). I wouldn't be surprised to see him turn out as good a player as Cronin is (bar the pace obviously).

    He's throwing is his strong point. I didn't realise that's where he played schools level. Explains a lot about his skill set. Should get better but if Varley could throw to 6 then he'd start ahead of Sherry till he retires.


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    #7282
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    Flincher wrote: »
    I wouldn't be too pushed about bringing Cronin back to be honest. I've fairly high hopes for Sherry, I was expecting a big season from him, but injuries messed it up. I think he'll be starting next year once he gets a run of games.

    There is still plenty of time for him to resolve his throwing - it took Fla a while as well. His ball carrying is excellent (he played No. 8 and threw into the lineout for Ardscoil Ris). I wouldn't be surprised to see him turn out as good a player as Cronin is (bar the pace obviously).

    I don't know about Cronin, he was only ok yesterday, his throwing is still only alright. He's a very different player to Sherry.


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    #7283
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    PhatPiggins wrote: »
    He's throwing is his strong point. I didn't realise that's where he played schools level. Explains a lot about his skill set. Should get better but if Varley could throw to 6 then he'd start ahead of Sherry till he retires.

    Nah, Varley has too many weaknesses in his game. He's an awful passer, he's a only ok in the set-pieces. He's a decent player but Sherry has far more potential.


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    #7284
    Fireball07
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    PhatPiggins wrote: »
    Ryan is a better second row than DOC and a better backrow then DOC2.

    I don't know if that adds to the arguement though :pac:

    I just massively prefer seeing Ryan in the 2nd row than in the back row.

    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Good luck to him, it's a shame he never got his throwing right. Other parts of his game like carrying ability and work rate were excellent.

    So our hookers next season will be Varley, Sherry and Henry with Casey and Scannell already in the academy system.

    Not a bad group of players. Sherry and Varley are both good already and Henry has looked decent when he's got his chance.
    PhatPiggins wrote: »
    Handy players but a huge step down from Flannery. If you could combine Varley and Sherry we'd be laughing. One guys strenghts are the other guys weaknesses and vice versa. We could end up luring Sean Cronin home yet.


    Meh, I don't think Cronin is that great. He's got huge, explosive pace which is obviously very useful but I think Sherry has the potential to be an all-round better player. And I don't think the gap between Varley and Cronin is very big tbh.


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    #7285
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    I just massively prefer seeing Ryan in the 2nd row than in the back row.

    We've no choice though, Ryan has to play 6. As it is we're going to be very, very rusty playing against Ulster. Our lineout is barely functioning, our scrum has been shaky, it's all grim.


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    #7286
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,323 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    So what are people's opinions on Keatley in general?


    I don't have faith in him starting in a HC game yet... but I wouldn't write him off completely yet. He has shown he has a lot of talent but is still inconsistent and not ready for the big games imo. But I think he has to be given the chance by the coaching staff next season. ROG is still the main man but Keatley should start 1 if not 2 Heineken Cup games next year, and be trusted to come off the bench. Maybe even give him some time at 12. If he's not the answer, we've got to find someone else but I don't think we can make that judgement on him yet.

    Munster need to start Keatley sooner rather then later. ROG is playing like a complete drain and I think Keatley would struggle to be worse. He was playing decently enough at the start of the season, but has seen almost no game time since ROG came back. ROG's odd drop goal is entirely colouring his performances this season - he has largely been terrible. Munster would be much better off playing Keatley for most of their games and having ROG to come on in the last 10 minutes to hit the drop goals and grind them to a win.


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    #7287
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Keatley did quite well when he was given a run in the team. He needed time to settle, I don't think that's a problem tbh, lot of guys need to get games under the belt in order to excel, pretty basic issue imo.


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    #7288
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Munster need to start Keatley sooner rather then later. ROG is playing like a complete drain and I think Keatley would struggle to be worse. He was playing decently enough at the start of the season, but has seen almost no game time since ROG came back. ROG's odd drop goal is entirely colouring his performances this season - he has largely been terrible. Munster would be much better off playing Keatley for most of their games and having ROG to come on in the last 10 minutes to hit the drop goals and grind them to a win.

    Hard to know, O'Gara isn't playing as well as he thinks he is, but he's not quite as bad as that either. Ultimately it's up to young players to win their places. There is a massive downside to that, and I think everyone can see that Zebo wouldn't have gotten a run but for Howlett's injury but it's still a central tenet of every squad, even Leinster with d'Arcy (somehow) holding his place ahead of McFadden etc.

    The thing is, the window of opportunity for young players in any established squad to play with the "first" team is quite small, guys like Keatley have to impress in their cameos, like guys like Sherry and TOD have recently. Sherry is already pushing Varley, it's up to Keatley to be so good that he's pushing O'Gara. Of course, it's far, far harder to do that from outhalf, but Keatley doesn't help himself enough, imo.


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    #7289
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    Hard to know, O'Gara isn't playing as well as he thinks he is, but he's not quite as bad as that either. Ultimately it's up to young players to win their places. There is a massive downside to that, and I think everyone can see that Zebo wouldn't have gotten a run but for Howlett's injury but it's still a central tenet of every squad, even Leinster with d'Arcy (somehow) holding his place ahead of McFadden etc.
    This season because of BOD's absence both D'Arcy and McFadden havee started nearly all the HEC matches together. It's hard to know what the situation would have been had BOD not been out. McFadden has still had more starts then D'Arcy.


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    #7290
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Munster need to start Keatley sooner rather then later. ROG is playing like a complete drain and I think Keatley would struggle to be worse. He was playing decently enough at the start of the season, but has seen almost no game time since ROG came back. ROG's odd drop goal is entirely colouring his performances this season - he has largely been terrible. Munster would be much better off playing Keatley for most of their games and having ROG to come on in the last 10 minutes to hit the drop goals and grind them to a win.

    Hard to know, O'Gara isn't playing as well as he thinks he is, but he's not quite as bad as that either. Ultimately it's up to young players to win their places. There is a massive downside to that, and I think everyone can see that Zebo wouldn't have gotten a run but for Howlett's injury but it's still a central tenet of every squad, even Leinster with d'Arcy (somehow) holding his place ahead of McFadden etc.

    The thing is, the window of opportunity for young players in any established squad to play with the "first" team is quite small, guys like Keatley have to impress in their cameos, like guys like Sherry and TOD have recently. Sherry is already pushing Varley, it's up to Keatley to be so good that he's pushing O'Gara. Of course, it's far, far harder to do that from outhalf, but Keatley doesn't help himself enough, imo.
    I agree that its up to young players to earn their places, but Keatley isn't getting nearly as much opportunity to do that as Madigan is. In fact Munster are far more conservative with their half backs than any other province, despite having very good reason not to be.

    They need to put a bit more faith in their depth. McGahan is really making the job tough on whoever is going to replace him.


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    #7291
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I agree that its up to young players to earn their places, but Keatley isn't getting nearly as much opportunity to do that as Madigan is. In fact Munster are far more conservative with their half backs than any other province, despite having very good reason not to be.

    They need to put a bit more faith in their depth. McGahan is really making the job tough on whoever is going to replace him.

    I think Downey will make a big difference next year, in the sense that for all his faults he can get across the gainline and pass the ball. The problem isn't just O'Gara, it's O'Gara and Mafi. One can't break and one won't pass but anyhow, I can see your point about needing to play Keatley more, just don't think Keatley has really demanded to be played more with his recent performances. If Keatley had used the Connacht game to make an argument for himself I'd be more understanding but if anything he made a case for O'Gara.

    Keatley needs to make sure his kicking is flawless, like McFadden has done, too, imo. He's still prone to poor misses.


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