How do you intend to vote in the upcoming EU Fiscal Treaty referendum?

K-9 · 29-02-2012 3:29am

Bababa wrote: »

Ah yeah. A state that is on EU welfare sounds good alright. U've obviously got a smell of crack off ur breath as well as the government. Must have been at the EU orgy.
This country will cope whatever the situation. And the Irish are extremely resilient. Time to give up being the EU 's simpleton child and become an adult!!!

Charming and insightful critique, almost Charlie Brooker like, though a worrying homophobic and fear of anal sex consistent undercurrent..

charlemont wrote: »

Judging by the huge lead for the No's here, The government will have to make a big effort to win a Yes. Ha, Ireland will be going to hell in a hand cart...

Voting Yes myself but I also agree with the people voting No for their own reasons as a No vote will screw everything up for the politicians, It will be like a spoiled child upset because he wasted his communion money or a dog biting the hand that feeds it, Ireland wouldn't last 3 months without the EU..

It actually seems a rather pointless treaty, even SF and the SWP couldn't get that particularly indignant about it. We basically did adhere to these targets in the 90's and up to 06, all the good it did.

Bababa · 29-02-2012 3:37am

K-9:
Charming and insightful critique, almost Charlie Brooker like, though a worrying homophobic and fear of anal sex consistent undercurrent..

Never mentioned either of the above. Seems to be on ur mind though. And ur entitled to it. long may u enjoy!!!
Very good of u to take it off topic with homosexual conotations. Am surprised boards have an idiot like urself moderating things.

Mod: poster banned.

gimmebroadband · 29-02-2012 3:24pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

And what about the deficit? I suppose the government can magic up the money to close the gap?

We have a vote but we do not have a choice what way we must vote. We must vote Yes. Otherwise if you think the pain is harsh now - you aint seen nothing yet.

The government wouldn't be able to borrow, so public expenditure would have to be slashed. That means pay for all public servants drastically cut with redundancies, capital spend reduced to an absolute minimum and welfare slashed. Taxes would have to be hiked as well. And people are moaning and whinging about austerity now?

If people want to maintain a decent standard of living it must be a resounding yes vote. Unless of course we would like to destroy the economy completely.

Thats the question we must answer on referendum day.

It is that simple.

What about the deficit!!! It means that we learn to cut our cloth according to our measure, instead of passing around the begging bowl to pay for the lifestyles we have become accustomed to, something our elected representatives know nothing about, with their junkets, OTT expenses and so-called wage caps!

Freddie59 · 29-02-2012 7:54pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

And what about the deficit? I suppose the government can magic up the money to close the gap?

What about it indeed? And what causes it? (see below).

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The government wouldn't be able to borrow, so public expenditure would have to be slashed. That means pay for all public servants drastically cut with redundancies, capital spend reduced to an absolute minimum and welfare slashed.

The bolded bits are the crucial ones. PS pay and the SW bill are the things causing the deficit - and must be addressed. However there is no doubt that the "Labour" party, along with henchmen like Jack, will present the disaster scenario of pay cuts to PS members - and SW recipients. Those two groups could be enough to swing a Yes vote. But I hope they don't.

Continuing to borrow can only go on in the short term. That train will be derailed one way or another. It will only delay the inevitable.

For every €50 this country spends, it raises €30....and borrows €20. Completely unsustainable. No household or business could continue under those constraints.

The Republic of Ireland is no different.

Liam Byrne · 29-02-2012 7:58pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

And what about the deficit? I suppose the government can magic up the money to close the gap?

We have a vote but we do not have a choice what way we must vote. We must vote Yes. Otherwise if you think the pain is harsh now - you aint seen nothing yet.

The government wouldn't be able to borrow, so public expenditure would have to be slashed. That means pay for all public servants drastically cut with redundancies, capital spend reduced to an absolute minimum and welfare slashed. Taxes would have to be hiked as well. And people are moaning and whinging about austerity now?

If people want to maintain a decent standard of living it must be a resounding yes vote. Unless of course we would like to destroy the economy completely.

Thats the question we must answer on referendum day.

It is that simple.

What about the deficit!!! It means that we learn to cut our cloth according to our measure, instead of passing around the begging bowl to pay for the lifestyles we have become accustomed to, something our elected representatives know nothing about, with their junkets, OTT expenses and so-called wage caps!

We have a massive deficit, but FG still pay off bondholders, break their own pay caps and refuse to fix the Croke Park Agreement issues.

If they are constrained while being let get away with the above then we will be screwed even further to foot the bill.

If and when they sort out THEIR waste, THEN let them come begging to us.

But not before.

Eric Cartman · 29-02-2012 8:03pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

nment wouldn't be able to borrow, so public expenditure would have to be slashed. That means pay for all public servants drastically cut with redundancies, capital spend reduced to an absolute minimum and welfare slashed. Taxes would have to be hiked as well. And people are moaning and whinging about austerity now?

so If we vote no , the bloated civil service and the dole scroungers all get f*cked , well thats 2 more reasons to vote no

Freddie59 · 29-02-2012 8:28pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so If we vote no , the bloated civil service and the dole scroungers all get f*cked , well thats 2 more reasons to vote no

Hear hear!:D

Biggins · 29-02-2012 8:31pm

An Irish Independent view -

THE debate is only starting and everyone agrees –both for and against – that this is a vital Treaty. Here’s all you need to know but didn’t have the time to ask ....

:: Why is it different?

Because on the last two occasions, when the Irish government put the Nice Treaty and the Lisbon Treaty to the will of the people, the resulting "No" votes stopped the EU in its tracks - until the Irish were offered concessions and voted "Yes" in repeat ballots.

:: And this time?

This time the referendum will not be on a Treaty change affecting the 27. It's about a separate "fiscal compact" between the 17 eurozone states. That means it doesn't need unanimous ratification in 27 countries, but only majority backing in 12 of the 17.

:: If Ireland can't block this "fiscal compact" thing, why try to hold the EU to ransom again?

It's more mundane than that: the Irish constitution more or less obliges Ireland to hold a referendum on things of this sort or face a potential legal challenge. But of course referenda have a habit of being hijacked by vested interests and delivering unwanted results.

:: Is Europe holding its breath?

Not really, because Ireland can't block this deal (please read the answer to your second question again). It should be the Irish government holding its breath, because a "No" vote would deny Ireland access to any of the increased bail-out funds enshrined in the "fiscal compact" they'd be turning down.

:: So why vote against it?

Please stop asking rational questions: this is a referendum on Europe - anything can happen and usually does. Euroscepticism stopped being just an English prerogative long ago, and the Irish, are not guaranteed to support the EU cause at the ballot box.

But, like I say, this time round, the political fall-out would more likely be in Dublin than Brussels if it's a "No".

:: That would embarrass the Taoiseach wouldn't it?

Just a bit. Enda Kenny needs this referendum like a hole in the head, but he's being brave and saying it's an opportunity for Ireland to reaffirm Ireland's commitment to eurozone membership.

:: Is he wrong?

No, he's right, but he'd also be right if he said the referendum is an opportunity for Ireland to stick two fingers up to Brussels once again, despite having done far better than most from the EU economically in the last couple of decade.

:: Will the Irish say "No"?

No, but don't quote me on that. It shouldn't be hard for the Irish government to convince voters that there's no mileage in a "No" vote this time but, as Fine Gael MEP Sean Kelly put it, "it would be unhelpful if the debate was hijacked or if the issues were muddied and confused by inaccurate comments".

:: Isn't the EU debate always hijacked?

Yes, to the constant frustration of the Brussels mandarins. Because although an Irish "No" would not stop Europe in its tracks on this occasion, it would be more confirmation of flagging public support for the EU and what it stands for.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/q-anda-all-you-need-to-know-about-the-treaty-and-the-referendum-3036392.html

eth0 · 29-02-2012 8:51pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

For every €50 this country spends, it raises €30....and borrows €20. Completely unsustainable. No household or business could continue under those constraints.

The Republic of Ireland is no different.

So the sooner the ability to borrow is removed the better. The current plan is to continue borrowing for another few years and dig ourselves into a slightly bigger hole before spending the next 50 or so years paying back this huge debt + interest.

dvpower · 29-02-2012 8:59pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so If we vote no , the bloated civil service and the dole scroungers all get f*cked , well thats 2 more reasons to vote no

That's if we voted No and then we needed another bailout down the road and we couldn't get one.

Then the 'bloated civil service and the dole scroungers all get f*cked' as do the health and education services, as do capital projects, as do taxpayers through massively higher taxes and savers by increased DIRT taxes and pension fund levies.

We all get f*cked, but that's ok because some people will get f*cked more than others?

Biggins · 29-02-2012 9:03pm

O' look - another leaked document from Germany - what timing, what a coincidence, what a same country!

Leaked document suggests Ireland may need further budget cuts in 2012

A LEAKED DOCUMENT has suggested that Ireland could require a mini-budget this year to implement further cuts.
A document leaked to the German parliament and seen by Bloomberg today has suggested the need for further fiscal tightening later this year if there is “further deterioration of the macroeconomic backdrop”.

The Department of Finance declined to comment on the document when contacted by TheJournal.ie this evening but confirmed its authenticity as a draft document which would be published by the European Commission tomorrow.
“The Commission staff report is being considered by Senior Officials from European Finance Ministries today and is due to be published tomorrow,” a statement said.

“The key programme documents including the Letter of Intent and the accompanying documents associated with the 5th review of the Irish Programme were published on the Department of Finance website on the 14th of February.”
Last November, documents leaked to the German parliament revealed the extent of the budget adjustments that were to be made the following month with the rise in VAT confirmed in Germany before it was disclosed in Ireland.

Sinn Féin TD Pearse Doherty has said it is “deeply troubling” that news of a possible mini-budget has been leaked to the finance committee of the German parliament before it was disclosed here.
“It is deeply troubling that yet again German Parliamentarians know more about the details of the Troika’s austerity programme in Ireland that elected Irish politicians.
He called on the Taoiseach to explain why the German parliament is discussing this document “before we have been given the chance to discuss it, and to state what he knows about the commission’s views on a mini budget.”

The government still anticipates that the €3.8 billion adjustment announced in last December’s budget will be sufficient to meet the targets laid down by the Troika that the budget shortfall be narrowed to 8.6 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP) in 2012.

http://www.thejournal.ie/leaked-documents-suggest-ireland-may-need-further-budget-cuts-in-2012-369839-Feb2012/

yellowlabrador · 29-02-2012 9:11pm

I've decided on how I'm going to cast my vote. I'm going to ask every person I meet in town over the next 2 weeks who our local MEP's are. If I can find 10 people who know, I'll vote yes. The only time I've seen them (or their canvassers) was when they were looking for my vote, I've not heard a thing since, apart from hearing one of them was considering standing for president. I've lived in Brussels and believe me, if you think the TD's are on a gravytrain, the MEP's are on a caviarexpress.
I personally don't think that this treaty is the solution and would avoid our problems happening again. Can the same criteria be applied to all the countries? The imbalance between ecomomic conditions in, for example Germany and Ireland at the start of the Euro experiment , had a major part to play.

BroomBurner · 29-02-2012 9:43pm

What it comes down to is if I trust the EU to fix the problem they started with their lackadaisical approach to financial regulation.

The EU had a lot of great rules about joining the euro, but allowed everyone to bypass them, helping to cause the mess. Not particularly inspiring.

The bureaucracy of the EU is like Ireland at its absolute worst. The Commission is a bloated, giant mass of public servants answerable to almost noone and even asked for a budget increase the year before last. Not particularly inspiring.

To be honest, I fail to see how the current lot are capable of fixing things with whatever they come up with. I don't trust 'em.

gerryo777 · 29-02-2012 9:50pm

dvpower wrote: »

but that's ok because some people will get f*cked more than others?

So it's more of the same then?

What colour is your time machine dv?

K-9 · 29-02-2012 11:02pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so If we vote no , the bloated civil service and the dole scroungers all get f*cked , well thats 2 more reasons to vote no

People have said that for 4/5 years now, first it was when the crash started, then it was the Croke Park deal, "take it or it will be far worse if the IMF come in", when the IMF came in, still no slashing and a year after they are here, still none.

I suppose this might finally be the time, but being a political realist, nope. Strictly there shouldn't be another EU/IMF bailout if we say no, but if its a choice between us defaulting and the markets going ballistic again, they'll find someway round it, skirting the real issue as per usual. The terms in the Treaty will probably be part of any new bail out anyway, or pretty close.

K-9 · 29-02-2012 11:09pm

yellowlabrador wrote: »

I personally don't think that this treaty is the solution and would avoid our problems happening again.

When you consider we basically did abide by the old terms until the crash, and we still had a crash, you are correct. Germany and France consistently flouted the terms IIRC. Portugal was the only one threatened with sanctions and that never happened.

Can the same criteria be applied to all the countries?

Yes, the Commission can take a case against any signed up member, but it will take the political will to do it. I've a notion they wont be strictly enacted, more a if you're going in the general direction of the targets, grand!

The imbalance between ecomomic conditions in, for example Germany and Ireland at the start of the Euro experiment , had a major part to play.

Germany was still suffering from reunification costs and was undergoing its own form of austerity.

Paz-CCFC · 29-02-2012 11:18pm

vicwatson wrote: »

Maybe they'll have the referendum on the rights of children in Ireland on the same day? They've been putting that one off for years and years, the assholes.

It's absolutely shocking that they prioritise economic-based referenda, when children are left with next to no contitutional rights. It should have been the first thing on the agenda when FG-Labour were elected. The importance of the recession is dwarfed by that of the lack of rights for children.

recyclebin wrote: »

How can I vote on something when we don't know yet what we are voting on. I know we have an idea of what the treaty is about but I'm not going to vote yes or no until I see the fine details.

There should be an option for undecided in the poll.

http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/579087/treaty.pdf

I believe this is the full text of the proposed treaty.

Freddie59 · 29-02-2012 11:28pm

dvpower wrote: »

We all get f*cked, but that's ok because some people will get f*cked more than others?

Kinda like Public Sector v Private Sector Wages in the boom then?

Sykk · 29-02-2012 11:33pm

What difference does it make? If we vote no, it will be put to another refferendum.. And again, and again until they get the desired results.

El Guapo! · 29-02-2012 11:39pm

Voting NO. And it doesn't matter how many times they make us vote on it. I'll vote NO each and every time.

suitseir · 29-02-2012 11:43pm

Voting YES!

Really and truly,we have no choice.

charlemont · 29-02-2012 11:43pm

BroomBurner wrote: »

What it comes down to is if I trust the EU to fix the problem they started with their lackadaisical approach to financial regulation.

The EU had a lot of great rules about joining the euro, but allowed everyone to bypass them, helping to cause the mess. Not particularly inspiring.

The bureaucracy of the EU is like Ireland at its absolute worst. The Commission is a bloated, giant mass of public servants answerable to almost noone and even asked for a budget increase the year before last. Not particularly inspiring.

To be honest, I fail to see how the current lot are capable of fixing things with whatever they come up with. I don't trust 'em.

These points could play a part in swinging me towards a No vote, I'm all for European integration but we are gone to the stage now were we have far too much governmental bodies etc at all levels EU Ireland and Local and all it does is make things more complicated and less democratic.

gerryo777 · 29-02-2012 11:49pm

suitseir wrote: »

Voting YES!

Really and truly,we have no choice.

There is always a choice.

Are we going to continue making the wrong choices??

theg81der · 29-02-2012 11:54pm

No thanks you to Europe permanently from me. Just the fact that we no longer have a veto really annoys me. They`re just going to keep going little by little till power is completely centralised and its too late....

gerryo777 · 29-02-2012 11:58pm

theg81der wrote: »

No thanks you to Europe permanently from me. Just the fact that we no longer have a veto really annoys me. They`re just going to keep going little by little till power is completely centralised and its too late....

I thought that after lisbon 2 we were told that we would still have a veto??

theg81der · 01-03-2012 8:46am

gerryo777 wrote: »

I thought that after lisbon 2 we were told that we would still have a veto??

Thats was never true. We were also told "yes to europe, yes to jobs" sorry where are the jobs and where were they in the treaty?!

I can only summise that people are stupid and will stupidly vote yes again. Financial stability is very important to the haves and the have nots are not the biggest voters.

derfderf · 01-03-2012 9:19am

Does anyone know why the shinners are saying vote no? They're usually against any cuts, despite economic realities. A no vote would be the biggest dose of reality this country received in a long time.

syklops · 01-03-2012 9:33am

Doc Ruby wrote: »

My takeaway is if we vote no, its the end of loans from Europe.

So that would be a no from me, then.

Does not compute

No loan then the guards dont get paid tomorrow. Do you get that????

AudreyHepburn · 01-03-2012 9:35am

I'll probably vote No, simply because I don't like the idea of Merkle and Sarkozy having this kind of control over us. I do think it's in our best interests to remain tied to Europe but not like this.

It seems to me however that the majority of people are voting No simply to get one up on the Government, to give them the finger if you like. And that, to me, is not a good reason or way to vote.

If you do wish to vote No then do it for the right reasons, and not through bitterness or because you think the Government are incapable of anything.

syklops · 01-03-2012 9:46am

derfderf wrote: »

Does anyone know why the shinners are saying vote no? They're usually against any cuts, despite economic realities. A no vote would be the biggest dose of reality this country received in a long time.

Because their understanding of economic issues is "When the going gets tough, the tough rob the local Northern Rock bank(or the local stationary cupboard)"

How do you intend to vote in the upcoming EU Fiscal Treaty referendum?

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