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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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FIREARMS LICENSING CASES BEFORE THE HIGH COURT

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    #152
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,943 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Originally Posted by puheen viewpost.gif
    What happened in court was certainly an eye opener. I personally am very happy for the people involved.
    I do find it hard to understand why the NARGC, a game council
    , would spend so much time and effort and our much earned money representing an extreme minority of big dick firearm holders.
    Please dont get take me up the wrong way but there has been far to much spent on the few at the expense of the best



    First they came for the handguns and I did not speak out - because I was not a handgun owner
    Then they came for the semi auto rifles , and I did not speak out - because I was not a semi auto rifle owner;
    Then they came for the semi auto and pump shotguns, and I did not speak out - because I was not a semi auto and pump action shotgun owner
    Then they came for the .22 sporting rifles and I did not speak out - because I was not an owner of such
    Then they came for my double barrel and single shot air rifle- and there was no one left to speak out for me.




    Adopted from Pastor Niemollers famous quote.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #153
    .270 remington
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭.270 remington


    well said grizzly


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    #154
    meathshooter1
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭meathshooter1


    or in the brotherhood of man song(showing my age 1970s band)
    united we stand devided we fall,


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    #155
    first amongst equals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭first amongst equals


    In my case I was commenting how factionalised the sport has become. The licensing system is causing huge problems across a wide variety of users. Yet one small group has grapped the limelight, then instead on continuing the case so that a judgement was forthcoming, they "settled" with a private deal. Surely this shows how factionalised It's become.

    What should have happened was not to settle, irrespective on the immediate settlement offer. Then a judgement ( from an obviously sympathetic judge) would have been recorded and the whole licensing process might have got a makeover.

    As it is, it remains a sectional settlement suiting a few. The I'm alright sorry about you , wins again in this sport. Of course in letting the defendants put forward a settlement has protected the status, allows the chief super to state theres nothing wrong with the system . The 166ers will just get nicer rejection letters and the rest of us will continue to suffer.

    A golden opportunity was missed to do something for the whole sport, which I thought NaRGCs involvement would foster. Seems I was mistaken.


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    #156
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    first amongst equals wrote: »
    . The licensing system is causing huge problems across a wide variety of users. Yet one small group has grapped the limelight,
    The thing you are overlooking or simply not commenting on is that while certain licenses (shotgun/rifle) are not being issued, mods not being issued, delays in licenses, etc handguns are the only section that have been all but banned bar the few hundred that already have them.
    So its an issue of scale. As in the pistols owners are getting hit hardest.
    then instead on continuing the case so that a judgement was forthcoming, they "settled" with a private deal. Surely this shows how factionalised It's become.

    What should have happened was not to settle, irrespective on the immediate settlement offer. Then a judgement ( from an obviously sympathetic judge) would have been recorded and the whole licensing process might have got a makeover.
    You seem to think the judge would have ordered the Chief Supers to issue the licenses. Not necessarily the case. He could have very easily told them to re-examine the applications and they would be in the same position they are now just without a settlement, and still with no judgement in their favour.
    As it is, it remains a sectional settlement suiting a few. The I'm alright sorry about you , wins again in this sport. Of course in letting the defendants put forward a settlement has protected the status, allows the chief super to state theres nothing wrong with the system . The 166ers will just get nicer rejection letters and the rest of us will continue to suffer.
    Have you a pistol that was refused or are you appealing a refusal at the moment?

    Remember this was not a case to change the Act/SI, but a few lads that were refused their licenses and fought their case.
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    #157
    first amongst equals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭first amongst equals


    You miss the point.

    The flaws in the licensing system, that were exposed by these "test" cases apply across the board, not just to the centre fire pistol issue, people have been arbitrarily refused unrestricted firearms, restricted firearms, moderators etc. all with t he same high approach as was demonstrated in the test cases.

    Yet here was an opportunity, which an obviously sympathetic judge to establish that the whole "refusal" process was flawed. Yet by accepting a private settlement they have ensured that no specific judgement is registered. While the few people involved in centre fire pistols may get a private 2nd bite at the cherry, the way this was resolved does not benefit the sport as a whole.

    There is nothing in the resolution of this court case that benefits shooting in general. I'm suprised NARGC allowed this to finish the way it did. Basically it's a sectionalised victory ( in fact it's nothing of a victory )

    Centre fire pistols are at a dead end. We will never see that SI revoked. There's too much uninformed public emotion behind it. As a result of this case we could see a even more restrictive SIs. Everyone could end up in court fighting everything

    I am profoundly annoyed that the NARGC supported a resolution in this way. Even the terms of the settlement are private, further reenforcing the view of a " cosy little deal" this is how the shooting sport in Ireland is controlled by doing things in " smoke filled rooms" , cosy little deals. Where as what should be done is to stand as one and demand a review and use these test cases to get one.

    It's certainly no victory and in my view will merely result in nicer worded refusals in the future. I further suspect that the 166ers will ultimately be disappointed. They cannot have gotten any further assurances from the guards other then to resubmit. Any thing else would simply be a further travesty of the license system and open to challenge.

    Sorry , it's was a poor show


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    #158
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,943 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    The flaws in the licensing system, that were exposed by these "test" ............................


    Why am I getting the impression that there are just a right bunch recently joined and peed off NARGC ers here tonight biatching and moaning that THEIR organisation and THEIR money was used to fight for an "elite"??:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    It shows that snobbery and narrowmindnedess is still alive in the shooting community in Ireland.:mad::mad:
    So obviously if you are NARGC members and have a rifle and possibly a handgun you are an inferior member these days...Or sorry a SUPERIOR elitist member as you can use thelegal functions of NARGC to everyones membership benefit,but to yours moreso as you are a CF pistol shooter?????Without paying one red cent more too of your PRESONAL monies???
    Sorry to deflate that balloon...NARGC might provide the legal framework of lawyers,but you will be putting your hands in your pockets too for this little jaunt..

    It shows that there is a bunch of paranoid Petes out there that belive still that some underhand deal was done at their cost.
    NEWSFLASH people!!
    They still havent finished hammering out the DEAL yet!!!Hold your fire till this is all done and dusted will ya???:rolleyes:It STILL not over...

    I really love the hurlers in the ditch critiques here.."It was a poor show":rolleyes:
    Well unless you have put your gob were your money is for a DC challange and even moreso for a HC challange,and gone down the line of doing such and spent the blood sweat and tears over the last three years...I dont think you are personally in a position to comment wether it was a good,bad or indifferent show..If you can do better,please do so!!:mad:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #159
    SLK2005
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭SLK2005


    Has anyone actually heard from their legal team about their specific case. I know I hav'nt so I'll pass no comment on result until I see exactly where I stand.
    It was pistols today, tomorrow it could be your semi 12g or his .243 rifle or her . 22 semi. We have to fight for every section if it is under threat and if that means court case after court case so be it.


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    #160
    Bananaman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    What is being forgotten is that a few hundred people appealed the refusals of.their licenses, through the courts,, as was the ONLY option to them under law. It just so happened that the vast majority of them were CF Pistol owners.

    Some of those cases were dealt with in the District court, yet more went on to the high court when it became obvious that they were the.victims of a blanket policy to not follow the law.

    It was this, if memory serves, that brought NARGC into the fray as they saw that the law was at best not being applied and at worst being.broken, to a degree which affected ALL firearms owners, hence the vast majority of its members. It just happened to be CF Pistols that was the victim at that point in time.

    The court decided to try three test cases and after only two of those, not only did the Judge say he was very concerned at the behaviour of Senior Gardai but adjourned to allow the state to consider its (untenable) position.

    the Gardai decided to not contest the cases anymore, in essence conceding that they could not win, and a settlement was reached.

    (and that is only what was reported in the papers)

    NARGC support was pivotal to these cases, not just for legal and financial support - but because the NARGCs membership represents a very wide base in all forms of shooting, so it can speak with authority on all of these matters. It also has a very large and geographically diverse membership which carries political weight.

    I despair at the type.of sentiment that says we should give up on minorities in order to limit the potential of a threat to the majority. We live in a republic folks, where the majoity is meant to protect the minority.

    If CF Pistols are allowed to go quietly into the night (which they wont be, just sayin) who will be at the back of the herd then? The lions will still be out there in the long grass.

    People who want types of shooting banned are not selective - they do not distinguish - they are in it for the species. They are quite happy to do it one bite at a time.

    The key is to not allow them to take that first bite.

    Job done.

    B'Man


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    #161
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Bananaman wrote: »
    I despair at the type.of sentiment that says we should give up on minorities in order to limit the potential of a threat to the majority.

    100% agree.


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    #162
    ace86
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭ace86


    Bananaman wrote:
    I despair at the type.of sentiment that says we should give up on minorities in order to limit the potential of a threat to the majority.
    johngalway wrote: »
    100% agree.

    I suppose as they say give them an inch they take a mile, if its pistols today whats next on the agenda


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    #163
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,434 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    As a member of the NARGC and a target shooting club I am absolutely delighted in the way my NARGC sub has been spent. I am not a pistol licence owner, having missed the 2008 boat :mad: but while it might have been advantageous to continue on with the test cases and push for a precedent it hasn't happened. What effect this will have time will tell but for the moment I'm just going to wait and see what Shatter's report from the GS comes out with.
    Just my two cents.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



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    #164
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    From TheJournal.ie:
    Government approves appointment of 33 senior gardaí

    MINISTER FOR JUSTICE Alan Shatter has announced the government’s approval of the appointment of a number of new gardaí to senior management positions within the force after public sector retirements.

    After meeting with the cabinet, Shatter said that two Assistant Commissioners, eight Chief Superintendents and 23 Superintendents were being appointed.

    The minister also said that the garda force should be at 13,511 gardaí by the end of this month, based on current projections. “This recent reduction in numbers must be seen in the context of the programme of real and substantial reform which is being delivered in An Garda Síochána under the Croke Park Agreement,” he said.

    Today’s appointments “reflect the commitment of the government to maintain the supervisory and management ranks in An Garda Síochána at the highest level possible,” he said.

    He added that Minster for Public Expenditure and Reform Brendan Howlin has sanctioned the appointment of replacements at the sergeant and inspector levels by the Garda Commissioner as a result of today’s appointments.


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    #165
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Sparks wrote: »
    From TheJournal.ie:

    Any of the Chiefs from the court case become AC's?


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    #166
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Not sure Rew, couldn't find a list of names.


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    #167
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Sparks wrote: »
    Not sure Rew, couldn't find a list of names.

    Yeah I couldn't either...


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    #168
    bazza888
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭bazza888


    you can bet they will be!


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    #169
    rowa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    It was in one of the papers that the chief super in ballymun or that district was due to be made up to an assistant commissioner, weither that happens now or not because of the revelations of the court case i don't know.


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    #170
    meathshooter1
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭meathshooter1


    Sparks wrote: »
    Not sure Rew, couldn't find a list of names.[/Quote

    Philips is one ,got the job.on six one news


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    #171
    homerhop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,953 ✭✭✭homerhop


    meathshooter1 wrote: »
    Sparks wrote: »
    Not sure Rew, couldn't find a list of names.[/Quote

    Philips is one ,got the job.on six one news


    So Shatter is promoting the more <questions about your administration of the firearms licencing system there> are the better off you will get on in the police force here


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    #172
    bazza888
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭bazza888


    you wont get in trouble in this country when your in a position of power,unbelievable thay you could be promoted after all this


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    #173
    rowa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    bazza888 wrote: »
    you wont get in trouble in this country when your in a position of power,unbelievable thay you could be promoted after all this

    Get into trouble ? Retire with a nice fat pension and leave a trail of trouble behind you more like , its the irish way.

    http://www.herald.ie/news/retiring-gardai-will-get-average-payoff-of-107k-3012049.html


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    #174
    meathshooter1
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭meathshooter1


    I don't care if he wins euro millions, its not surprising that he was promoted.all we want is fairness & our sport back.


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    #175
    bazza888
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭bazza888


    thats what im saying rowa different rules for the elite in this country,imagine if they found out you or me lied on a gun license form ,bet you wouldnt get away with it:mad:


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    #176
    meathshooter1
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭meathshooter1


    bazza888 wrote: »
    thats what im saying rowa different rules for the elite in this country,imagine if they found out you or me lied on a gun license form ,bet you wouldnt get away with it:mad:


    very true,but one of them has fallen on his own sword over this and got the golden hand shake retirement he will carry the can(not publicly) but thats it.they dont care the one that was investigating Anglo has retired to take a job with AIB as head of the banks fraud division.they can walk into the private sector and the goverment know it


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    #177
    SIG
    Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭SIG


    Fellow shooters. The Judicial review case taken by the NARGC was for the benefit of all our Community, not just the 168 persons involved. Each of those person was asked for a contribution at the outset. The FACT of the case was that the State conceeded there were / are areas that were not correctly followed in accordance with the Law. The costs of the NARGC will be paid for by the State - there is no shooters money wasted in this matter. The final outcome is awaited, We would all be better keeping our powder dry and geting ready to defend the privilages that we have as of now, while seeking to convince people that we are upright citizens who can be trusted with our sporting arms.


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    #178
    Dr Strange
    Registered Users Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭Dr Strange


    This comment made by Alan Shatter today may be a preview of things to come:
    irishtimes.com wrote:
    ...“Gun law on the streets of Tallaght, or any other part of the city or county of Dublin or anywhere else in the country, is entirely unacceptable. Unfortunately, we have groups of people in the state who have no respect for human life and quite frankly, we have too many people accessing guns.”...

    Full article: http://news.ie.msn.com/teenage-girl-16-killed-in-tallaght-drive-by-shooting

    I know it has nothing to do with the sport as such, however in the view of this court case and recent fears of tightening firearms licensing further the comment itself probably should be taken into consideration by sport shooters and hunters.


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    #179
    rowa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    Preusse wrote: »
    This comment made by Alan Shatter today may be a preview of things to come:



    Full article: http://news.ie.msn.com/teenage-girl-16-killed-in-tallaght-drive-by-shooting

    I know it has nothing to do with the sport as such, however in the view of this court case and recent fears of tightening firearms licensing further the comment itself probably should be taken into consideration by sport shooters and hunters.

    He will tread the age old Path of persecuting legitimate target and game shooters because of the crimes of underworld scum. I don't know about anyone else but i can't tell the difference between fg/lab and ff/ pd/green. They are all out of touch and seem to live in a little world of their own where actual facts and data don't mean anything.


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    #180
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Or, he'll listen to the reasoning of target shooters for the last few years who've pointed out that in a recession, having to go to court every other week and lose is a bad thing financially for the government....

    ...and he'll just ban all pistols with statute law that can't be appealed in court. Thus saving all that money.

    I keep saying it, and I'm not the only one, but it doesn't seem to be heard - you can't use the courts as a stick to beat the government with. It just doesn't work that way.


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    #181
    rowa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    But the talking went on for nearly 30 years with no budge from any government in the case of pistols sparks, not even low powered airpistols were released for target shooting, the only thing i can think of that was released without a court case was centrefires up to .270, nick flood had to head to court to get a rifle in a competitive calibre or continue to attend international shoots with hunting calibre. We still wouldn't have pistols only for the brophy case.


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