Do we ignore animal cruelty to suit us?

Amber Lamps · 14-10-2011 6:16pm

ScumLord wrote: »

I'd be fairly certain that nature would be proud as punch of her human creation.

About as proud as someone with cancer is of their disease I'd say.

ScumLord · 14-10-2011 7:05pm

archer22 wrote: »

Oh dear lord you are serious...Hunting is part of nature if you live in a burrow or in a tree and you have no other source of food...I am assuming here that you dont live in a burrow or a tree if you do I apologise.Regarding survival of the "strongest and the fittest" that also involves attacking the other alpha males and mating their females (must be an interesting and unusual place where you live)..."killing is living in harmony with nature" ..for once I am speechless :eek::eek::eek::eek:..,..

Your view of the world is from a completely human centric point of view you don't really seem to see the world for what it actually is but rather live in a fantasy land, good luck with that.

doctor evil · 14-10-2011 7:10pm

Nature is red in tooth and clay.

softmee · 14-10-2011 7:11pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Your view of the world is from a completely human centric point of view .

Just the opposite I would say.

softmee · 14-10-2011 7:17pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Hunting is a fundamental part of nature. I'm constantly shocked people can overlook how nature has been for billions of years and instead assume that they know better based on a decade or two of wallowing in the modern human notions that we're some sort of fairy that can somehow overcome the fact we're also part of nature. Being in harmony with nature means killing, I'd be fairly certain that nature would be proud as punch of her human creation. It's survival of the strongest and fittest, not lets all be friends like on Barney.

.

What exactly are you calling a nature?
We are part of it- right, but we can correct it and improve.

I've seen some documentary about Africa's animals once and there was this little elephant which lost the rest of the herd and went wrong direction. They filmed it as it starved to death , because they didnt want to "interfere" with "nature". I think it was a sick thing to do and what most of the people call "nature" is overrated and idealized!

--Kaiser-- · 14-10-2011 8:10pm

OK, looney bin vegetarians, can any of ye answer the below questions? I have asked these of vegetarians before but they were always ignored.

Ye seem to think killing animals is wrong, so:

a) do ye look under your feet to make sure you're not stepping on woodlice and drive really slow to avoid splattering poor defenseless bugs? Because if not you are murdering animals

b) If you your house happens to be infested with rats, would you hire an exterminator, or allow them to have free run of your house?

c) do you care about the millions of animals killed by farm machinery in the harvesting of vegetarian foods (grains etc..) or killed due to elimination of their habitat?

Because if you think you can go through life without killing anything, you are living in a fantastic delusion of your own creation and not the real world

--Kaiser-- · 14-10-2011 8:16pm

softmee wrote: »

What exactly are you calling a nature?
We are part of it- right, but we can correct it and improve.

I've seen some documentary about Africa's animals once and there was this little elephant which lost the rest of the herd and went wrong direction. They filmed it as it starved to death , because they didnt want to "interfere" with "nature". I think it was a sick thing to do and what most of the people call "nature" is overrated and idealized!

That was Planet Earth, I know the bit you were talking about, it's know to make grown men cry.

I was watching another episode of that last night, also a bit hard to watch. In this episode (Grasslands, if you're interested). A baby elephant is brought away from the herd and killed and eaten by a pride of lions. Do you think they should have intervened and stopped the lions from eating the baby elephant? Because that one baby elephant fed a starving pride of lions for a week

loveisdivine · 14-10-2011 8:37pm

I think the real problem is not that people eat meat. It's that people don't want to pay very much for that meat. This has resulted in poor welfare standards, so the producers can keep their costs down.

The answer isn't being vegetarian, because like many have said, growing and harvesting crops will also kill huge numbers of wild animals.

The answer, imo, is to stop producing and selling cheap meat. I would much rather have veggie meals 6 days of the week and then have one day where I enjoy a nice piece of meat, that has cost me more, but I know care and time have gone into its production.

There was an ad for Supervalu on tv a while ago and a carton of fresh juice cost more than a pack of sausages. I find this seriously concerning.

El_Dangeroso · 14-10-2011 9:12pm

I find it so weird that vegetarians express sympathy for species, who if they got their way, would basically be eradicated.

Also, tell me how many small animals lives are 'worth' sparing the life of one cow? Because if you eat grains and soy instead of meat you need make your peace with that particular equation.

Is it more humane to be chopped to bits by a combine than a swift stunning to unconsciousness?

On a side note regarding health, explorers went in search of vegan tribes all over the world. They thought they found one, but they turned out to be cannibals.

We probably don't need to consume as much of anything as we do, but to focus on meat production as a source of all the ills of modern agriculture is biased and ignorant.

Cú Giobach · 14-10-2011 9:48pm

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

OK, looney bin vegetarians, can any of ye answer the below questions? I have asked these of vegetarians before but they were always ignored.

Ye seem to think killing animals is wrong, so:

a) do ye look under your feet to make sure you're not stepping on woodlice and drive really slow to avoid splattering poor defenseless bugs? Because if not you are murdering animals

b) If you your house happens to be infested with rats, would you hire an exterminator, or allow them to have free run of your house?

c) do you care about the millions of animals killed by farm machinery in the harvesting of vegetarian foods (grains etc..) or killed due to elimination of their habitat?

I'm not a vegetarian but I'll answer your questions, quite easily.

Regarding A&B... those creatures you mentioned will die, so why add more?
Not eating meat is lessening the overall amount of suffering.

C. Livestock uses up many many times more natural resources than growing veg does, therefore not eating meat lessens the impact an individual has on the environment.

Years ago I went out with a lovely Indian woman to whom the thought of eating meat was how you would feel trying to eat a human, nice of you to call her and millions of her countrymen and women plus the millions spread all over the rest of Asia and increasingly the world "loony bins".

Because if you think you can go through life without killing anything, you are living in a fantastic delusion of your own creation and not the real world

The world we live in is based on the death of one creature to give life to another and the mere act of living causes death, but why not be aware of the death you cause and in cases where you can avoided it, do so. This is all many people do, is that really "loony"?

Cú Giobach · 14-10-2011 10:09pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I find it so weird that vegetarians express sympathy for species, who if they got their way, would basically be eradicated.

Personally I would prefer to have never existed than exist as say a battery hen, and I would say if a hen could rationalise, so would she.

Also, tell me how many small animals lives are 'worth' sparing the life of one cow? Because if you eat grains and soy instead of meat you need make your peace with that particular equation.
Is it more humane to be chopped to bits by a combine than a swift stunning to unconsciousness?

Life is entwined with death, I would rather cause the death of animals that lived free and bred to create more "free" animals than be part of the industrial mechanised raising and slaughtering of animals.

On a side note regarding health, explorers went in search of vegan tribes all over the world. They thought they found one, but they turned out to be cannibals.

Millions of Buddhists and Hindus are vegetarians or vegans, and have been for quite some time.

We probably don't need to consume as much of anything as we do, but to focus on meat production as a source of all the ills of modern agriculture is biased and ignorant.

Meat is the largest user of resources out of all the foodstuffs, especially cattle.

El_Dangeroso · 15-10-2011 11:22am

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Personally I would prefer to have never existed than exist as say a battery hen, and I would say if a hen could rationalise, so would she.

How about a cow living in a field all day long? Would they prefer not to exist too?

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Life is entwined with death, I would rather cause the death of animals that lived free and bred to create more "free" animals than be part of the industrial mechanised raising and slaughtering of animals.

How are cattle that are fed on lush pasture all their lives not 'free'? What would the cow do differently if granted their freedom?

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Millions of Buddhists and Hindus are vegetarians or vegans, and have been for quite some time.

Vegetarians, yes, vegans, not really or if so incredibly recently. You won't find a pre-industrial society that consumes no animal products at all.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Meat is the largest user of resources out of all the foodstuffs, especially cattle.

You are conflating local grass fed meat with industrial operations. Livestock is an inextricable part of a healthy agricultural ecosystem and the recent winner of the Buckminster Fuller Challenge Prize of $100,000 for the Africa Center for Holistic Management:

"Desertification is occurring on 25% of the land area of Earth, degrading 73% of the world's rangelands and causing widespread poverty. By reversing desertification, we could create innumerable positive consequences: mitigating climate change, droughts and floods, and reducing poverty, social breakdown, violence and genocide.

Yet most attempts to date have not only been ineffective, but have been band-aid solutions that do not address its real "root" causes. Enter Semi-Finalist Allan Savory and his surprising trimtab approach to reversing desertification that he calls "holistic rangeland management." Nearly the exact opposite of prevailing theories that blame desertification on overgrazing, Savory's solution centers on dramatically increased livestock numbers to reverse desertification.

The tremendous success of Savory's counter-intuitive solution is evidenced through his work with Operation Hope at the Africa Center for Holistic Management (ACHM) in Zimbabwe. For hundreds of years the 6,500 acres of the ACHM were barren, dry fields until 1992 when Savory increased the livestock by 400% and managed them through holistic, planned grazing. Over time, the barren fields were transformed into green grass and open water, full of water lilies and fish.

Cú Giobach · 15-10-2011 12:17pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

How about a cow living in a field all day long? Would they prefer not to exist too?

I gave one example (I could have chosen many more) of an animal that has a horrible existence, because another different animal has a good one does not negate the point, or somehow give validity to such a life.
And don't say existence is better than non-existence, you weren't alive in 1850, was that hard or somehow negative for you?

How are cattle that are fed on lush pasture all their lives not 'free'? What would the cow do differently if granted their freedom?

Domestic animals are by definition not "free" or wild. I am looking out my window at the moment at a field of castrated cattle, I wonder how many of them would have chosen that.

Vegetarians, yes, vegans, not really or if so incredibly recently. You won't find a pre-industrial society that consumes no animal products at all.

So? What is your point?
Vegetarianism is ancient and common throughout the world, it is normal and harms nobody, what is the problem with it?

You are conflating local grass fed meat with industrial operations. Livestock is an inextricable part of a healthy agricultural ecosystem and the recent winner of the Buckminster Fuller Challenge Prize of $100,000 for the Africa Center for Holistic Management:

Again well kept animals and managed eco-systems don't negate the evils of mass industrial operations, or the damage they do.
I can beat this dog because I give that one a good life

I stopped eating beef after visiting a slaughter-house and cheap, processed chicken after seeing a battery operation, not because of some high moral ideal but to lessen my impact and not contribute as much to the scenes I witnessed, am I doing something wrong, negative or crazy?

paddyandy · 15-10-2011 2:11pm

I said to an acquaintance who wanted to have a chicken dish "Do you know how that creature lived and died" Response "Sure it's dead".......TYPICAL i thought.3,000+ YEARS of civilisation and you'll meet people like that.

redzerologhlen · 15-10-2011 2:17pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I gave one example (I could have chosen many more) of an animal that has a horrible existence, because another different animal has a good one does not negate the point, or somehow give validity to such a life.
And don't say existence is better than non-existence, you weren't alive in 1850, was that hard or somehow negative for you?

Domestic animals are by definition not "free" or wild. I am looking out my window at the moment at a field of castrated cattle, I wonder how many of them would have chosen that.

So? What is your point?
Vegetarianism is ancient and common throughout the world, it is normal and harms nobody, what is the problem with it?

Again well kept animals and managed eco-systems don't negate the evils of mass industrial operations, or the damage they do.
I can beat this dog because I give that one a good life

I stopped eating beef after visiting a slaughter-house and cheap, processed chicken after seeing a battery operation, not because of some high moral ideal but to lessen my impact and not contribute as much to the scenes I witnessed, am I doing something wrong, negative or crazy?

Just to clarify battery cages are used for egg production not meat. I dont agree with them as they are cruel. Its a unnatural and uncomfortable for a chicken to live. Just because your a vegetarian does not mean it is right or wrong to eat meat. Id somehow doubt also that you would like to live beside a field of full bulls given their aggressive disposition. All farmers in Ireland have to comply with regulations regarding animal welfare or they wont be allowed to keep them. We keep cows here and we look after them as much as we can. They live all their life outside and are quite happy grazing away and chewing the cud. I can walk up to most of them in the field and rub them if I want and they dont move. Does this mean that I am cruel to them?? People are always going to eat meat so the vegetarian preaching is ridiculous. I wouldnt tell a vegetarian they should eat meat. I think what should be more of an issue is to improve animal welfare while they are alive!! Dont blame the farmers, They are only trying to make a living. The biggest problem lies with the consumers that demand cheap food and the processors and the retailers that take the biggest cut of the money.

crazygeryy · 15-10-2011 2:26pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

As the question asks, we have no problem ringing the Gardai when a dog or cat is being mistreated but what about other animals?

Pet fish for example - gold fish grow big and keeping them in small bowl stunts their growth. Also keep a dog in a cage theirs uproar but keep a foot long fish in a 2 footlong tank is ok?

Pet birds - usually left in a small cages

Also live stock - Does anybody know how they go from eating grass the being accompied by chips?

Warning pretty brutal

Mod note, this is actually very graphic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWrcZKOzs4

So as humans do we really care enough for animals?

that has to be the worst video ive ever seen anywhere.incredibly shocking and heartbreaking to say the least.but the even sadder thing is it wont put me off meat.

It wasn't me! · 15-10-2011 2:43pm

paddyandy wrote: »

I said to an acquaintance who wanted to have a chicken dish "Do you know how that creature lived and died" Response "Sure it's dead".......TYPICAL i thought.3,000+ YEARS of civilisation and you'll meet people like that.

And people like you, who can turn lunch into an ideological firestorm. Leave the person eat their chicken. Eat whatever you want. Simple fact is, unless you killed it yourself, you don't know either.

Cú Giobach · 15-10-2011 3:22pm

redzerologhlen wrote: »

Just to clarify battery cages are used for egg production not meat. I dont agree with them as they are cruel. Its a unnatural and uncomfortable for a chicken to live. Just because your a vegetarian does not mean it is right or wrong to eat meat. Id somehow doubt also that you would like to live beside a field of full bulls given their aggressive disposition. All farmers in Ireland have to comply with regulations regarding animal welfare or they wont be allowed to keep them. We keep cows here and we look after them as much as we can. They live all their life outside and are quite happy grazing away and chewing the cud. I can walk up to most of them in the field and rub them if I want and they dont move. Does this mean that I am cruel to them?? People are always going to eat meat so the vegetarian preaching is ridiculous. I wouldnt tell a vegetarian they should eat meat. I think what should be more of an issue is to improve animal welfare while they are alive!! Dont blame the farmers, They are only trying to make a living.

I'm not a vegetarian, I have never told another person what they should or shouldn't eat and though I don't eat beef I will happily cook it for someone else. I have also killed and prepared animals for eating.
I have done no "preaching" in this thread and am here to say no more than vegetarians are not "loonies" nor is it unnatural (we are an animal that does not need meat to survive, unlike say, a cat ).
3 things made me think about what I eat, seeing inside a slaughter-house, seeing how chickens are kept, both of which I wanted nothing more to do with, living with a vegetarian showed me that (for me) eating meat with every meal or not feeling a sandwich was complete without a slice of ham or some chicken was nothing more than habit.
Defending vegetarianism against some of the quite irrational comments here is not advocating it for the masses.

The biggest problem lies with the consumers that demand cheap food and the processors and the retailers that take the biggest cut of the money.

Interesting you say this, yet attack me when all I have done here, is say I have gotten out of that very circle and defend others who have done the same.

redzerologhlen · 15-10-2011 3:47pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I'm not a vegetarian, I have never told another person what they should or shouldn't eat and though I don't eat beef I will happily cook it for someone else. I have also killed and prepared animals for eating.
I have done no "preaching" in this thread and am here to say no more than vegetarians are not "loonies" nor is it unnatural (we are an animal that does not need meat to survive, unlike say, a cat ).
3 things made me think about what I eat, seeing inside a slaughter-house, seeing how chickens are kept, both of which I wanted nothing more to do with, living with a vegetarian showed me that (for me) eating meat with every meal or not feeling a sandwich was complete without a slice of ham or some chicken was nothing more than habit.
Defending vegetarianism against some of the quite irrational comments here is not advocating it for the masses.

Interesting you say this, yet attack me when all I have done here, is say I have gotten out of that very circle and defend others who have done the same.

I wasnt attacking you and am sorry if I came across that way. Just trying to make a point.

stovelid · 15-10-2011 3:53pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

Mod note, this is actually very graphic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWrcZKOzs4

Needs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dAawsEZFI4

Cú Giobach · 15-10-2011 4:05pm

redzerologhlen wrote: »

I wasnt attacking you and am sorry if I came across that way. Just trying to make a point.

No bother.

It just seems odd that in this day and age where people are exposed to so many different things and people, that the mere mention of conscientious meat eating or vegetarianism can elicit so much negativity, when it hurts no one or no animal and actually helps lessen the problems the demand for cheap meat creates.
I don't get it.

ScumLord · 15-10-2011 4:36pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

No bother.
It just seems odd that in this day and age where people are exposed to so many different things and people, that the mere mention of conscientious meat eating or vegetarianism can elicit so much negativity, when it hurts no one or no animal and actually helps lessen the problems the demand for cheap meat creates.
I don't get it.

If you look back though the argument started when some posters made out hunting for food is wrong for a modern human to do. Implying we should only be allowed to eat a vegetarian diet with no meat and that somehow our domesticated food would be better off if we didn't eat them, which isn't true, they'd be more or less brought to the brink of extinction.

I'm all for paying more for meat and I think we owe it to our domesticated animals (all of them from food to pets) to give them the best life we can. They were always highly regarded before intensive farming came along.

Cocolola · 15-10-2011 4:52pm

Odysseus wrote: »

But the anti's will never see that, we are the bad men with guns who just kill for the sake of it. We will always be wrong no matter what, and you just can't engage with that type of mentality, not only do they believe the are totally right and are unwilling to see any other viewpoint, you often encounter significant moral superiority, not only are we wrong we are evil...

Nothing bugs me more than being called an "anti" by hunters in that condescending manner. I say I'm anti-hunting, and you* instantly dismiss me, assuming I'm some kind of activist nutjob. Please stop saying things like this!
*not actually YOU personally, just you hunters in general

Anyways, I am not a vegetarian (yes, hypocrite I know). I would love to be, but I'd probably become quite unhealthy from lack of food. So I try to avoid eating meat out at restaurants, shops etc. and instead, I ensure that the meat I buy is Irish and organic and has come from a farm with excellent standards. I only get eggs that have come from a farm where I have seen myself that they are indeed free range organic chickens. I try to avoid pork as I'm not as confident about the life the animals have led. I would love if it were possible for slaughtering to be done on location at the farms (I know why it's not) and if excessive transport of live animals were banned but I will make do with the current standards and be thankful I live in a country where they are pretty high by comparison.

I am 100% against bloodsports like fox/stag hunting, coursing, bullfighting etc. But I have no problem with hunters like Odysseus above who eat their prey after killing it in an efficient and humane manner. I believe that an animal which has been stalked, shot and killed instantly is a far superior and preferable way of obtaining food than the stress an animal has to endure during the transport and slaughter process.

Er... I have no idea what my original point was supposed to be or even what the thread title is now after all that

Oh wait, no I don't think certain methods of killing animals for food are cruel, but others could probably do with being looked into. People are going to eat meat. It is as simple as that. As long as everything possible is done to ensure the animals led a happy life and are slaughtered as humanely as can be, then I'm ok with it.

Cú Giobach · 15-10-2011 5:07pm

ScumLord wrote: »

If you look back though the argument started when some posters made out hunting for food is wrong for a modern human to do. Implying we should only be allowed to eat a vegetarian diet with no meat and that somehow our domesticated food would be better off if we didn't eat them, which isn't true, they'd be more or less brought to the brink of extinction.

For the millions of animals around the world who wouldn't be born into the hell their existence is, this would be a blessing.

I'm all for paying more for meat and I think we owe it to our domesticated animals (all of them from food to pets) to give them the best life we can. They were always highly regarded before intensive farming came along.

We all know the desire for cheap meat is causing problems but to get to the crux of the matter, the reason people want cheap meat is so they can have it all the time.
Breakfast roll in the morning, chicken sandwich for lunch and a steak for dinner, many people have meat with every meal now, that is the problem, we are obsessed with it.

ScumLord · 15-10-2011 5:31pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

For the millions of animals around the world who wouldn't be born into the hell their existence is, this would be a blessing.

It's the farming methods that are at fault and nothing else.

Cú Giobach · 16-10-2011 6:53am

ScumLord wrote: »

It's the farming methods that are at fault and nothing else.

As with any behaviour that is a problem it's no good just saying "the behaviour is the problem, end of", you have to deal with and face up to the underlying reasons for that behaviour.

ScumLord · 16-10-2011 1:17pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

As with any behaviour that is a problem it's no good just saying "the behaviour is the problem, end of", you have to deal with and face up to the underlying reasons for that behaviour.

Capitalism and people need to eat. I don't think there would be any other animal that would act any differently if in our position. It's not surprising humans want to eat lots of nice things, we're driven to do it. Really we've only had this lifestyle for the last 50 years which isn't a long time in the grand scheme of things, it is hard for an animal to control it's eating.

ItsAWindUp · 17-10-2011 9:59pm

Have a look at this video, the Glass Walls one, and tell me that the meat industry is acceptable: http://www.meat.org/

doctor evil · 17-10-2011 10:09pm

Meh, Paul McCartney... celebrities shoudl stick to what they are good at.

ItsAWindUp · 17-10-2011 10:10pm

doctor evil wrote: »

Meh, Paul McCartney... celebrities shoudl stick to what they are good at.

Right, what a great response. Completely ignore the subject matter. Well done to you sir.

Do we ignore animal cruelty to suit us?

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