Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

buck65 · 01-07-2011 12:26pm

McLaughlin is a more complete 6 than Ryan but Ryan covers lock well and had a decent last few months at 6, keeping Leamy out as he is a god lineout option. For these reasons he should get the nod I think.

01-07-2011 12:31pm

buck65 wrote: »

McLaughlin is a more complete 6 than Ryan but Ryan covers lock well and had a decent last few months at 6, keeping Leamy out as he is a god lineout option. For these reasons he should get the nod I think.

Regardless of who travels, neither would see meaningful gametime.

They'd both be lucky to see even 20 mins vs USA and play 60 vs Russia.

Such is the manner of rotation we are used to employing

bamboozle · 01-07-2011 12:48pm

profitius wrote: »

How is McLaughlin a far better player?

well for starters experience, Mclaughlin has far more big game exposure at HC and International level with several starts in the HC including a final and a start in last season's 6n's against Italy. Ryan has started 1 HC game in 2nd row and none at 6 and IIRC has started no internationals.

Ryan is good in lineout but apart from that Mclaughlin is a far more rounded player, much better ball carrier and makes more of an impact around the park.

GerM · 01-07-2011 1:46pm

Better player? McLaughlin. Better fit for what I suspect DK is looking for? Ryan.

GerM · 01-07-2011 2:00pm

We can now rule out Nonu from moving. Whilst I think he's a great player, I don't think he would be a great signing for Munster. I think Toeava is the most likely signing at this stage. He can not only play for them as a centre but can step in and replace Warwick to an extent also at 15 for if and when Jones is with Ireland. In fact, Toeava is probably more of a back three player these days than a centre. I'm sure the NZRU are making big efforts to keep him at the Blues though considering they've already lost Payne and McAlister for next season.

The alternative big name signing is JDV. I don't think it's a path Munster should be looking down but I'm sure he is in the frame. Serious money for a player who will be almost 31 and mixed the excellent with the mediocre when he was here. Unlike Tipoki, I don't think he really brought out the best in those who played alongside him.

Amazotheamazing · 01-07-2011 2:22pm

I don't know, I've watched Ryan pretty closely this season and his only bad appearance was away to Toulon. Other than that he's been one of our best forwards. Saved our skins against Brive.

bamboozle · 01-07-2011 3:19pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I don't know, I've watched Ryan pretty closely this season and his only bad appearance was away to Toulon. Other than that he's been one of our best forwards. Saved our skins against Brive.

unfortunately his problem is at 27 he's never had a run of games to prove his worth, i remember seeing him come on in a HC game against Llanelli 4 or 5 years ago and thinking he was going to be a class act but fast forward and he's had little big game action to build on his ability.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 01-07-2011 3:20pm

Ryan has been very unlucky that he hasn't been given the opportunity to usurp DOC in the row for Munster. He has been in great form and wouldn't be too far off the starting 4 jersey for Ireland, if he continues that form.

McLoughlan is a way behind Ferris/SOB at 6 and has very little lock experience. Bringing him would repeat one of the biggest mistakes of '07, ie. bringing too many 6's.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 01-07-2011 3:22pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I don't know, I've watched Ryan pretty closely this season and his only bad appearance was away to Toulon. Other than that he's been one of our best forwards. Saved our skins against Brive.

He was pretty bad against London Irish wasn't he

thomond2006 · 01-07-2011 3:31pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

He was pretty bad against London Irish wasn't he

True, he was then dropped for the Toulon home game the week after. MOD came in and had a stormer, got a try as well. MOD was firmly ahead of Ryan in the pecking order, until Ryan got his recent run of games at 6.

profitius · 01-07-2011 3:33pm

Hes never gotten a decent chance to make a position his own in the team. Last season he had a chance and got injured. This season just gone he got a chance near the end at playing 6 and got better in every game. Then he moved to lock and played well too because he was after a run of games.

I don't know how many times he has started with POC. Very little I'd say. He has been better than DOC this season too and should be starting more games but he doesn't have a central contract and DOC never gets injured.

Kidney rates him because he knows he is a talented player and helped Ireland win their last Churchill Cup.

theboss80 · 01-07-2011 3:38pm

So I see 3 new jersey designs to b released soon and available in August. I'm praying for a nice away one.Never liked the present one.

GerM · 01-07-2011 4:02pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Ryan has been very unlucky that he hasn't been given the opportunity to usurp DOC in the row for Munster. He has been in great form and wouldn't be too far off the starting 4 jersey for Ireland, if he continues that form.

McLoughlan is a way behind Ferris/SOB at 6 and has very little lock experience. Bringing him would repeat one of the biggest mistakes of '07, ie. bringing too many 6's.

He's had 7 years with Munster. What sort of opportunity is he waiting for? DOC was in the worst form of his life arguably up until the 6N this season and Ryan couldn't get ahead of him. If his performances demanded selection, in the same manner that Murray for example has, he would be in the side and not being shoehorned in at 6. He looked like he had the materials to be a world class lock 4 years ago and stagnated badly due to sitting around, not even making the bench for HEC games. He had an chance in the HEC this season and didn't take it.

His great form, has been good. People tend to blow these things out of proportion. He has played well at 6 most certainly but this great form tends to get multiplied once the national selection debate comes into it. He has been solid, exposed once or twice, but over all played quite well. But I don't think he has had a game where I've genuinely thought to myself afterwards that he can't be left out after that performance.

We won't make the same level of mistake of 2007. We brought 5 blindsides on that occasion and, if we're going to go down that path, it won't be due to a selection of Ryan/McLouglin as a dual player (both of whom have solid cases for inclusion), it will be the selection of Leamy who realistically, at best, should only be getting a run if DK decides to change his back row entirely for the Russia or USA matches.

Depp · 01-07-2011 4:35pm

I've heard whistles in the wind Nonu is on his way, i know its a longshot but who believed the howlett rumours?

Ciaran-Irl · 01-07-2011 4:37pm

Depp wrote: »

I've heard whistles in the wind Nonu is on his way, i know its a longshot but who believed the howlett rumours?

http://af.reuters.com/article/southAfricaNews/idAFL3E7HU3SW20110630

Signed for the Blues. They were in for him though. So I'm told.

Amazotheamazing · 01-07-2011 4:47pm

GerM wrote: »

He's had 7 years with Munster. What sort of opportunity is he waiting for? DOC was in the worst form of his life arguably up until the 6N this season and Ryan couldn't get ahead of him. If his performances demanded selection, in the same manner that Murray for example has, he would be in the side and not being shoehorned in at 6. He looked like he had the materials to be a world class lock 4 years ago and stagnated badly due to sitting around, not even making the bench for HEC games. He had an chance in the HEC this season and didn't take it.

His great form, has been good. People tend to blow these things out of proportion. He has played well at 6 most certainly but this great form tends to get multiplied once the national selection debate comes into it. He has been solid, exposed once or twice, but over all played quite well. But I don't think he has had a game where I've genuinely thought to myself afterwards that he can't be left out after that performance.

We won't make the same level of mistake of 2007. We brought 5 blindsides on that occasion and, if we're going to go down that path, it won't be due to a selection of Ryan/McLouglin as a dual player (both of whom have solid cases for inclusion), it will be the selection of Leamy who realistically, at best, should only be getting a run if DK decides to change his back row entirely for the Russia or USA matches.

He's the perfect bench option though, ahead of Cullen or McL because he covers both positions pretty well.

wixfjord · 01-07-2011 4:49pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

He's the perfect bench option though, ahead of Cullen or McL because he covers both positions pretty well.

Well, unless you want to have a proper second row and proper back row on the bench?!

wixfjord · 01-07-2011 4:52pm

GerM wrote: »

He's had 7 years with Munster. What sort of opportunity is he waiting for? DOC was in the worst form of his life arguably up until the 6N this season and Ryan couldn't get ahead of him. If his performances demanded selection, in the same manner that Murray for example has, he would be in the side and not being shoehorned in at 6. He looked like he had the materials to be a world class lock 4 years ago and stagnated badly due to sitting around, not even making the bench for HEC games. He had an chance in the HEC this season and didn't take it.

His great form, has been good. People tend to blow these things out of proportion. He has played well at 6 most certainly but this great form tends to get multiplied once the national selection debate comes into it. He has been solid, exposed once or twice, but over all played quite well. But I don't think he has had a game where I've genuinely thought to myself afterwards that he can't be left out after that performance.

We won't make the same level of mistake of 2007. We brought 5 blindsides on that occasion and, if we're going to go down that path, it won't be due to a selection of Ryan/McLouglin as a dual player (both of whom have solid cases for inclusion), it will be the selection of Leamy who realistically, at best, should only be getting a run if DK decides to change his back row entirely for the Russia or USA matches.

Once again we're looking at a heavily blindside/8 laden backrow pool, particularly if Jennings doesn't go, which would show we haven't really learned any lessons from 2007. The role of the traditional 7 has without doubt lessened, but guys like McCaw, Brussow and Pocock are invaluable to their teams, and while I'm not saying Jennings is anywhere near that class, he's the closest to them that we have as an out and out 7.

Heaslip, Ferris + SOB is good enough as a unit to compete on the ground, but I personally don't think SOB is a 7 in any way.

Amazotheamazing · 01-07-2011 4:56pm

wixfjord wrote: »

Well, unless you want to have a proper second row and proper back row on the bench?!

He's both imo. I really don't think McL is so much better you'd crowbar him into the squad.

wixfjord · 01-07-2011 5:04pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

He's both imo. I really don't think McL is so much better you'd crowbar him into the squad.

But you're trying to crowbar Ryan into the squad by saying he's good enough to cover both SR, when we have far better options than him, and BR, where we have far, far, better options than him (incl MCL)! What I'm saying is, why do we need someone who can poorly cover two positions, when we've guys who can cover them individually far far better.

Let's remember that Ryan is older and less experienced than MCL too.

Amazotheamazing · 01-07-2011 5:20pm

wixfjord wrote: »

But you're trying to crowbar Ryan into the squad by saying he's good enough to cover both SR, when we have far better options than him, and BR, where we have far, far, better options than him (incl MCL)! What I'm saying is, why do we need someone who can poorly cover two positions, when we've guys who can cover them individually far far better.

Let's remember that Ryan is older and less experienced than MCL too.

I don't think he's poor at either position. I think it says something for bias on your part that you think he's poor. He's not in the same bracket as Ferris, SOB or Leamy at 6, but neither McL.

jolley123 · 01-07-2011 5:25pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

He's both imo. I really don't think McL is so much better you'd crowbar him into the squad.

In fairness, McLaughlin is so much better. To argue otherwise would be quite peculiar. McLaughlin's only problem is that he's playing for a team that is blessed with back-rowers. And even then, he starts in the HC final. And he starts because his work in the line-out is such an asset. I would have no problem with McLaughlin starting at lock for Leinster. He basically performs that role when he's playing anyway. He's played lock twice i think this year, and he slotted in with ease. His line-out work against Toulouse was brilliant.

Donncha Ryan had a run of good games towards the end of the season, but I don't think you can seriously say that he's as good as McLaughlin.

Amazotheamazing · 01-07-2011 5:30pm

jolley123 wrote: »

In fairness, McLaughlin is so much better. To argue otherwise would be quite peculiar. McLaughlin's only problem is that he's playing for a team that is blessed with back-rowers. And even then, he starts in the HC final. And he starts because his work in the line-out is such an asset. I would have no problem with McLaughlin starting at lock for Leinster. He basically performs that role when he's playing anyway. He's played lock twice i think this year, and he slotted in with ease. His line-out work against Toulouse was brilliant.

Donncha Ryan had a run of good games towards the end of the season, but I don't think you can seriously say that he's as good as McLaughlin.

I'm not going to bother slagging off mcL, he's not the best 6 or reserve 6 available. I say that's fairly beyond debate. He's nowhere near the best reserve second row.

What we're really asking is who should take one of the other spots in the squad. For me, Ryan's versatility wins it for him. McL is a good player but he's not as versatile as Ryan, imo.

jolley123 · 01-07-2011 5:37pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'm not going to bother slagging off mcL, he's not the best 6 or reserve 6 available. I say that's fairly beyond debate. He's nowhere near the best reserve second row.

What we're really asking is who should take one of the other spots in the squad. For me, Ryan's versatility wins it for him. McL is a good player but he's not as versatile as Ryan, imo.

Oh for sure, if it's a debate on which one to take, then Ryan should go. But as for Ryan being as good a player as McLaughlin, I whole heartedly disagree.

wixfjord · 01-07-2011 6:13pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I don't think he's poor at either position. I think it says something for bias on your part that you think he's poor. He's not in the same bracket as Ferris, SOB or Leamy at 6, but neither McL.

Or perhaps it says something for the bias on your part that you think he's good, when all things point against it?! (See that game works both ways

)

01-07-2011 6:18pm

I would play Rhys Ruddock at 6 ahead of Donnacha Ryan.

I would play Mick O'Driscoll at 4 ahead of Donnacha Ryan.

This says a lot about him imo. Regardless of his perceived versatility.

wixfjord · 01-07-2011 6:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I would play Rhys Ruddock at 6 ahead of Donnacha Ryan.

I would play Mick O'Driscoll at 4 ahead of Donnacha Ryan.

This says a lot about him imo. Regardless of his perceived versatility.

Said it better than I could. Do you bring a player simply because he's versatile and can conceivably play 6 and SR, (although hasn't shone in either) or bring one who is miles ahead of him in either position?
And why is Ryan so much better than MCL at SR? Did he play much there during his good run? I don't remember, but thought it was 6 he was playing.

Amazotheamazing · 01-07-2011 6:34pm

wixfjord wrote: »

Or perhaps it says something for the bias on your part that you think he's good, when all things point against it?! (See that game works both ways )

Not really, he's a good player, it's debatable as to whether he's good enough to make the Irish RWC squad. You said he's a poor player which he plainly isn't. I don't feel the need to tear down other players to build up the ones I rate though.

01-07-2011 6:39pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Not really, he's a good player, it's debatable as to whether he's good enough to make the Irish RWC squad. You said he's a poor player which he plainly isn't. I don't feel the need to tear down other players to build up the ones I rate though.

oh come on, there's no need for hypersensitivity.

The actual quote was

wjixford wrote:

What I'm saying is, why do we need someone who can poorly cover two positions,

It's relative, do you agree that MOD is a better 2nd rower than him? Yes? well than he is a poorer option than MOD.
Do you agree that McL is a better 6 than him? Yes, than he is a poorer option than McL.

Enough is enough

Also, the pair of yee, (and me), this isn't suited to this thread. There's an Ireland Team Talk, and a RWC Chances thread. No point in dicking around in here!

Amazotheamazing · 01-07-2011 6:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

oh come on, there's no need for hypersensitivity.

The actual quote was

It's relative, do you agree that MOD is a better 2nd rower than him? Yes? well than he is a poorer option than MOD.
Do you agree that McL is a better 6 than him? Yes, than he is a poorer option than McL.

Enough is enough

Also, the pair of yee, (and me), this isn't suited to this thread. There's an Ireland Team Talk, and a RWC Chances thread. No point in dicking around in here!

You really think saying someone covers two positions poorly is different to saying he's a poor player? Like I said, neither are in the class of our top three 6's (Ferris, O'brien and Leamy) or tbf, as good as Muldoon (when fit). I'd say at a push they are fighting out for 5 and 6th?

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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