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The Status Of Irish.

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    #1082
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Well ,good luck to you Deise, you seem to be a sincere believer , but i fear you are looking at things through rose tinted glasses.

    Israel, Wales,Catalonia,Basque have all made much greater progress than we have , all in a much shorter time frame and some from a lesser starting base. But we insist we know best and persist with outdated methods than have more to do with resentment and false ideas of identity than they have with correct language teaching.

    I hope I am wrong and you succeed but I fear not


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    #1083
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    The problem with the Irish language is its not needed anymore to communicate. People now use English. So it won't ever get back to what it was. Thats all there is to it. Reality.


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    #1084
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    marienbad wrote: »
    Well ,good luck to you Deise, you seem to be a sincere believer , but i fear you are looking at things through rose tinted glasses.

    Israel, Wales,Catalonia,Basque have all made much greater progress than we have , all in a much shorter time frame and some from a lesser starting base. But we insist we know best and persist with outdated methods than have more to do with resentment and false ideas of identity than they have with correct language teaching.

    I hope I am wrong and you succeed but I fear not

    Each country has its own conditions.

    Israel decided that Hebrew would be the language of the state and services would be provided through it. This made sense there because the population was linguistically diverse but most people had some knowledge of Hebrew, If we did the same here and only provided state services through Irish and make it necessary for people to learn the language quickly I can only imagine we would have the same result. But doing that is not feasible nor in my opinion desirable here.

    Wales started from a much healthier position. Up to 20% of the population was Welsh speaking when they started their revival movement.

    As for the Basque and Catalan regions, Basque is doing quite well, but I dont know if Catalan is as healthy.

    Of course there are many other languages around the world that are in a much worse position than Irish. There is even a language with over 2 million speakers that is worse off than Irish, This is because though there are a lot of speakers left, they are all elderly people, No one is raised through the language anymore.

    Irish on the other hand is growing, The Gaelscoil movement is creating over a thousand fluent Irish speakers every year outside the gaelthacht, and an organisation called Comhludar is helping families all over the country to raise their children through Irish. This means that many areas where Irish died as a native language 100 years ago will have new native Irish speakers in them.

    There are many challenges and obstacles to over come, But I have no doubt that they will be met and overcome, and that Irish will continue to grow, Far from being dead, it will outlive us all.


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    #1085
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Israel decided that Hebrew would be the language of the state .... but most people had some knowledge of Hebrew,
    Except the majority Palestinians who lived there.

    Combining religion and language is an effective way to maintain ethnic separation. Not without its unpleasant side though.


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    #1086
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Except the majority Palestinians who lived there.

    Combining religion and language is an effective way to maintain ethnic separation. Not without its unpleasant side though.

    Well that is a whole other can of worms, I was talking in terms of the 'Jewish' state.

    Language dosent have to be a barrier of separation, that is what bi-lingualism is all about.


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    #1087
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Small Update. Eamonn Gilmore dose not support the FG policy of Making Irish optional for the LC.

    Nuacht Inside Ireland
    Dheimhnigh ceannaire an Lucht Oibre, Eamon Gilmore, go bhfuil a pháirtí i bhfabhar an Ghaeilge a choinneáil mar phríomhábhar Ardteiste de réir Chonradh na Gaeilge.

    Bhuail Gilmore le toscaireacht ón gConradh an tseachtain seo caite am a dúirt sé gur thacaigh sé le stádas riachtanach na Gaeilge don Ardteist.

    Ní thacaíonn Eamon Gilmore le polasaí Fhine Gael stádas riachtanach na Gaeilge don Ardteist a bhaint de réir Chonradh na Gaeilge.


    tl;dr

    Gilmore has had a meeting with CnaG and has said He dosent support the policy of Removing Irish from the core of our Education system.


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    #1088
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    Good stuff. Our progressive politicians agree, Irish is the way forward.


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    #1089
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    This is surprising though I expect he's just fishing for votes more then anything. Labour's grassroots support have traditionally favoured optional Irish and I would be very surprised to see him do a U turn on the issue if in power.


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    #1090
    Static Jak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭Static Jak


    Well like I said in the other thread, I'd rather see it as a choice than being mandatory. Rather it be a choice along with languages like French and German and other such languages.
    If it can't stand on it's own two feet, then tough luck really.


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    #1091
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    Not to re-open this can of worms but Irish isn't just another language like French or German. If it can't swim then we need to put any resources we have into it, even if it means cancelling Western Rail Corridors, closing hospitals or defaulting on payments owed to Germans who gambled and lost.


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    #1092
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Oasis_Dublin wrote: »
    Not to re-open this can of worms but Irish isn't just another language like French or German. If it can't swim then we need to put any resources we have into it, even if it means cancelling Western Rail Corridors, closing hospitals or defaulting on payments owed to Germans who gambled and lost.
    Can of worms.....re-opened.....going everywhere!!!!

    You honestly think maintaining the Irish language is more important then maintaining hospitals? I'm sorry but that position is just too stupid for words.


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    #1093
    Shelga
    Registered Users Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭Shelga


    By the time I got to 5th year I knew I would not be requiring Irish in my daily life after school. Knew 100%. I used to sit down the back of the class and try to do Maths exam questions. What is the big deal with making Irish optional after Junior Cert?

    The amount of lost hours and frustration that subject caused me in those 2 years made me grow to hate the language. Only now, 5 years after leaving school, do I have some perspective about its position within our society. Yes, it has a place for those who wish to speak it after the age of 16, but forcing people to study it until the age of 18/19 is absolutely ridiculous.

    My opinion stands whether they reform the poetry/literature side of it or not.


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    #1094
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Can of worms.....re-opened.....going everywhere!!!!

    You honestly think maintaining the Irish language is more important then maintaining hospitals? I'm sorry but that position is just too stupid for words.

    It may have been an exaggeration for effect... then again it might not have been.


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    #1095
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    Shelga wrote: »
    By the time I got to 5th year I knew I would not be requiring Irish in my daily life after school. Knew 100%. I used to sit down the back of the class and try to do Maths exam questions. What is the big deal with making Irish optional after Junior Cert?

    The amount of lost hours and frustration that subject caused me in those 2 years made me grow to hate the language. Only now, 5 years after leaving school, do I have some perspective about its position within our society. Yes, it has a place for those who wish to speak it after the age of 16, but forcing people to study it until the age of 18/19 is absolutely ridiculous.

    My opinion stands whether they reform the poetry/literature side of it or not.

    I have no use for Shakespeare or trigonometry in my daily life. Take away the compulsion FOR ALL THREE or forget about it.


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    #1096
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Oasis_Dublin wrote: »
    I have no use for Shakespeare or trigonometry in my daily life. Take away the compulsion FOR ALL THREE or forget about it.
    I have no real use for Shakespeare either but at least more people read it then Peig Sayers.

    As for trigonometry, you use it every time you walk up a hill.


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    #1097
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Oasis_Dublin wrote: »
    It may have been an exaggeration for effect... then again it might not have been.
    Were you or weren't you?


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    #1098
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    I've always maintained that Irish as a second level subject needs to be changed, less An Triail, more cleachtadh comhrá. I'm not in the business of defending auld Peig!

    Are you claiming I could not walk up hills if I hadn't done LC honours maths?! :)


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    #1099
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Were you or weren't you?

    Would I rather every other Irish person died due to a lack of any form of medical care as long as I was fluent in Irish? Is that what I'm being asked as a genuine question here? Hummm, I don't think it's necessary to insult your intelligence by actually answering the question.


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    #1100
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Oasis_Dublin wrote: »
    I've always maintained that Irish as a second level subject needs to be changed, less An Triail, more cleachtadh comhrá. I'm not in the business of defending auld Peig!

    Are you claiming I could not walk up hills if I hadn't done LC honours maths?! :)
    And are you in the business of defending mandatory Irish education for all school going citizens (and non citizens)? Because that's what your doing if you're in favour of compulsory Irish.

    No, I'm claiming you would not have as much an understanding of the world around you (in this case hills).
    Oasis_Dublin wrote: »
    Would I rather every other Irish person died due to a lack of any form of medical care as long as I was fluent in Irish? Is that what I'm being asked as a genuine question here? Hummm, I don't think it's necessary to insult your intelligence by actually answering the question.
    Stop struggling, you said resources should be diverted from other areas, even hospitals if need be to keep the Irish language a float. So I'm going to ask you again, are you in favour of diverting money from hospitals to pay for the up keep of Irish?

    Here's what you wrote.
    Oasis_Dublin wrote:
    Not to re-open this can of worms but Irish isn't just another language like French or German. If it can't swim then we need to put any resources we have into it, even if it means cancelling Western Rail Corridors, closing hospitals or defaulting on payments owed to Germans who gambled and lost.


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    #1101
    Shelga
    Registered Users Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭Shelga


    Oasis_Dublin wrote: »
    I have no use for Shakespeare or trigonometry in my daily life. Take away the compulsion FOR ALL THREE or forget about it.

    Hmm yes I would be interested in debating the merits of all subjects being optional after Junior Cert, a la UK A levels. However, purely from an economic standpoint, seeing as that is the number one priority these days, you cannot, CANNOT deny that it is more important to get students passionate about maths and science than Irish. Well you can, but I will cease to contribute to this thread.

    I used to not really see the point of English for Leaving Cert either, but it really does stand to you in later life if you can enunciate points clearly, write streamlined reports etc. The Shakespeare stuff is another matter, but I do think both English and Maths have infinitely more relevance in 21st century schools, and working life afterwards.


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    #1102
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    And are you in the business of defending mandatory Irish education for all school going citizens (and non citizens)? Because that's what your doing if you're in favour of compulsory Irish.

    No, I'm claiming you would not have as much an understanding of the world around you (in this case hills).


    Stop struggling, you said resources should be diverted from other areas, even hospitals if need be to keep the Irish language a float. So I'm going to ask you again, are you in favour of diverting money from hospitals to pay for the up keep of Irish?

    Here's what you wrote.

    Yes, I am, as you well know from pervious discussions on this topic. Your point about hills is moronic.

    The insistence that I should answer a clearly facetious comment says everything about you.


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    #1103
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    Shelga wrote: »
    Hmm yes I would be interested in debating the merits of all subjects being optional after Junior Cert, a la UK A levels. However, purely from an economic standpoint, seeing as that is the number one priority these days, you cannot, CANNOT deny that it is more important to get students passionate about maths and science than Irish. Well you can, but I will cease to contribute to this thread.

    I used to not really see the point of English for Leaving Cert either, but it really does stand to you in later life if you can enunciate points clearly, write streamlined reports etc. The Shakespeare stuff is another matter, but I do think both English and Maths have infinitely more relevance in 21st century schools, and working life afterwards.

    I already accepted that the A-Levels is a possible solution.

    Your second point is assumptious. Irish does have relevance in certain jobs; at least as much as Maths or English.


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    #1104
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    The Irish language is far too formal in ireland at the moment ,as far as I can see. It's all based around news and sign posts ,there's no energy or vibrance about it.

    I honestly think if we are bombarded with irish on prime time television ,through politics etc. it will push people away from it more. We need the language on the streets and not in the Dail.


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    #1105
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    The Irish language is far too formal in ireland at the moment ,as far as I can see. It's all based around news and sign posts ,there's no energy or vibrance about it.

    I honestly think if we are bombarded with irish on prime time television ,through politics etc. it will push people away from it more. We need the language on the streets and not in the Dail.

    Actually we need the language on the streets AND in the Dáil.:)

    As for your point about the language not being vibrant, I would like to invite you down to UL for Seachtain na Gaeilge, Then you can see if there is some energy in it.

    You should go to one of the Irish language events like Picnic Ráth Chairn or Oireachtas na Gaeilge, It would be an education:p


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    #1106
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Fair play to ye Deise ,if only the shower in the Dáil were as appealing:P


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    #1107
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1108
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    Where are you getting this undemocratic notion from? There is nothing undemocratic in promoting minority languages at all.

    Can I ask, as you seam to think that there need to be three leaders debates in English would it be OK if a forth debate was held in Irish, or would that be 'undemocratic' too?


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    #1109
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1110
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Culture and politics are two seperate things ,speaking irish won't change that

    :eek: Culture is what influences national policy, and I would argue the primary purpose of politics is to simultaneously saveguard and shape culture.

    Irish politics is conducted mostly in English; is it a suprise that a huge amount of our legislation is based on the legacy of English rule? If today's politicians and civil servants (and voters?) were more prepared to use Irish, maybe we'd have a justice system based on Brehon Law rather than Norman Feudal and have fewer trials collapsing for "technical" reasons.


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    #1111
    Shelga
    Registered Users Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭Shelga


    Oasis_Dublin wrote: »
    I already accepted that the A-Levels is a possible solution.

    Your second point is assumptious. Irish does have relevance in certain jobs; at least as much as Maths or English.

    You think someone who studied Irish in third level will be as desirable to as many employers as those who studied Maths and its related subjects? Even in the private sector?


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