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O2 iPhone Customers - Get out of contract!

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    #542
    Salvation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Salvation


    Consumer knowledge is dangerous...

    But if we opted to leave our contracts in normal we would be charged so all is fair in love and war !!!

    Anyhow I will post up when it is done..

    Does anyone have info on 3 Ireland and the iPhone offers they may have ?


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    #543
    guil
    Registered Users Posts: 10,493 ✭✭✭✭guil


    rang up yesterday hoping to be offered to stay on contract, i got an iphone in december and a blackberry for the missus in march and spent 950 so far, the lad i was talking to didnt seem bothered at all to keep me on contract and removed it on both phones

    both of us are on the same plans and i have a gold upgrade available
    happy days


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    #544
    micks
    Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭micks


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    Remember vodafone can suffer the same fate too if they change contract T&C. I'd say they're (networks) all very worried about this. Suddenly and all at once the consumer knows their rights!

    Vodafone have change T&C's and are taking a different stance ie if you call to cancel under reg 17 they cancel your account from the next day, number everything gone.


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    #545
    ingen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭ingen


    micks wrote: »
    Vodafone have change T&C's and are taking a different stance ie if you call to cancel under reg 17 they cancel your account from the next day, number everything gone.


    what T&C's have vodafone changed recently? i heard nothing about it.

    cheers


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    #546
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    micks wrote: »
    Vodafone have change T&C's and are taking a different stance ie if you call to cancel under reg 17 they cancel your account from the next day, number everything gone.

    That sounds like it breaches the no penalty part of section 17. I'd challenge them on that if it were me.

    Besides - thats a stupid tactic since it will only drive away customers. Theres a lot of O2 people on here getting out of contract but staying with O2.


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    #547
    ingen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭ingen


    opinion guy wrote: »
    That sounds like it breaches the no penalty part of section 17. I'd challenge them on that if it were me.

    Besides - thats a stupid tactic since it will only drive away customers. Theres a lot of O2 people on here getting out of contract but staying with O2.

    i would love to know what T&C's vodafone have changed lately, as there is nothing on their site?

    have they changed any out of bundle call costs recently.?

    cheers


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    #548
    jamesd
    Registered Users Posts: 3,425 ✭✭✭jamesd


    ingen wrote: »
    i would love to know what T&C's vodafone have changed lately, as there is nothing on their site?

    have they changed any out of bundle call costs recently.?

    cheers
    http://www.vodafone.ie/terms/custome...=1276770568754

    Notice to Vodafone Pay Monthly Customers – 1st June
    Vodafone Perfect Choice Access Plus
    Please note this shall only apply to customers who signed up to one of out Perfect Choice Access Plus Plans prior to 25th March 2010

    Due to a re-assignment of various access point names (APNs) in our Perfect Choice Access Plus plans, with effect from 1st July 2010, Clause 8 of the Terms and Conditions of Vodafone Perfect Choice Access Plus will be removed and replaced as follows:

    “A Customer may use the monthly allocation of data to access Vodafone Live. Any unused allocation cannot be carried over to the next month.”
    In view of the above change to these terms and conditions, please contact us within 30 days if you wish to terminate your account without penalty. See the full contractual terms


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    #549
    whiterebel
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,867 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    Salvation wrote: »
    Consumer knowledge is dangerous...

    But if we opted to leave our contracts in normal we would be charged so all is fair in love and war !!!

    Anyhow I will post up when it is done..

    Does anyone have info on 3 Ireland and the iPhone offers they may have ?

    3 haven't announced anything yet.


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    #550
    ingen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭ingen


    jamesd wrote: »
    http://www.vodafone.ie/terms/custome...=1276770568754

    Notice to Vodafone Pay Monthly Customers – 1st June
    Vodafone Perfect Choice Access Plus
    Please note this shall only apply to customers who signed up to one of out Perfect Choice Access Plus Plans prior to 25th March 2010

    Due to a re-assignment of various access point names (APNs) in our Perfect Choice Access Plus plans, with effect from 1st July 2010, Clause 8 of the Terms and Conditions of Vodafone Perfect Choice Access Plus will be removed and replaced as follows:

    “A Customer may use the monthly allocation of data to access Vodafone Live. Any unused allocation cannot be carried over to the next month.”
    In view of the above change to these terms and conditions, please contact us within 30 days if you wish to terminate your account without penalty. See the full contractual terms
    damn cannot find any changes to perfect choice 50.. was the out of bundle minute cost always 35C on perfect choice 50


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    #551
    Kensington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    opinion guy wrote: »
    That sounds like it breaches the no penalty part of section 17. I'd challenge them on that if it were me.
    Not necessarily. The minimum term is only that - a term of the contract. After the minimum term on any contract, you are still tied into the exact same contract, it's just one of the terms of the contract no longer applies. For example, another of the terms is that you must give them 30 days notice to terminate the contract outside the minimum term. The contract still exists - you can't just cancel your direct debit and turn your phone off and that's that.

    If O2 breach the contract by altering one or more of any of the terms (which they effectively have done), and you object to this (by calling upon Section 17 and being no longer bound by the minimum term), the contract is effectively null and void and no longer exists under law which is why you are no longer bound by any of its terms, the term that you must remain on O2 for a specific length of time being one of them. Why would they continue to provide you with service under a contract that now no longer exists?

    It may be perfectly possible for contract law to interpret completely different to what I've posted above. Also, O2 may decide to overlook the fact the contract effectively is void in favour of keeping your custom. But I'd watch out if I were calling upon section 17. O2 could turn around in a month's time and say to anyone who called on S17, but remained on the network, that it is deemed that they decided to accept the change of terms and they are now still locked into the existing contract. Alternatively, they could turn around on the changeover date and say that as the contract has now officially been significantly altered, and you objected to it, the contract is null and void and so they are no longer obliged to provide you with the existing service or mobile phone number. In short, I'd get anything and everything in writing from O2.


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    #552
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Kensington wrote: »
    Not necessarily. The minimum term is only that - a term of the contract. After the minimum term on any contract, you are still tied into the exact same contract, it's just one of the terms of the contract no longer applies. For example, another of the terms is that you must give them 30 days notice to terminate the contract outside the minimum term. The contract still exists - you can't just cancel your direct debit and turn your phone off and that's that.

    If O2 breach the contract by altering one or more of any of the terms (which they effectively have done), and you object to this (by calling upon Section 17 and being no longer bound by the minimum term), the contract is effectively null and void and no longer exists under law which is why you are no longer bound by any of its terms, the term that you must remain on O2 for a specific length of time being one of them. Why would they continue to provide you with service under a contract that now no longer exists?

    It may be perfectly possible for contract law to interpret completely different to what I've posted above. Also, O2 may decide to overlook the fact the contract effectively is void in favour of keeping your custom. But I'd watch out if I were calling upon section 17. O2 could turn around in a month's time and say to anyone who called on S17, but remained on the network, that it is deemed that they decided to accept the change of terms and they are now still locked into the existing contract. Alternatively, they could turn around on the changeover date and say that as the contract has now officially been significantly altered, and you objected to it, the contract is null and void and so they are no longer obliged to provide you with the existing service or mobile phone number. In short, I'd get anything and everything in writing from O2.

    This was discussed before in the thread. I still disagree with the earlier and above interpretations. From my reading of it contracts and service are two separate things. They are mutually exclusive. There are customers on all networks in and out of contract still getting service and these haven't been forced in to new contracts or forced off networks. Your contract is just to agree to the service for a minimum period of time. What vodafone are doing if it's true is a form of penalty which the regulations state is illegal. You just have to stand your ground on the matter. Under the regulations if they change the T&C of your plan and you disagree you are entitled to be removed from your commitment but that is all. They cannot force you off the network for this reason specifically. They are just threatening that on people to see if they'll crack or hold their ground


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    #553
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Even customers on prepay are in a contract of sorts. They have to abide by certain terms and conditions. Obviously if o2 breach them there is bugger all a customer can do except leave.


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    #554
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Haddockman wrote: »
    Even customers on prepay are in a contract of sorts. They have to abide by certain terms and conditions. Obviously if o2 breach them there is bugger all a customer can do except leave.

    They are not in contracts of sorts. They pay for a service as they use it that is all.


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    #555
    TheDark_Knight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭TheDark_Knight


    jamesd wrote: »
    In view of the above change to these terms and conditions, please contact us within 30 days if you wish to terminate your account without penalty. See the full contractual terms

    :eek:


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    #556
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    http://www.vodafone.ie/terms/customernotices/?ts=1276770568754
    Customer notifications
    Under Regulation 17 of the European Communities (electronic communications networks and services)(Universal Service and Users’ rights) Regulations 2003 an operator shall, not less than one month prior to the date of implementation of any proposed modification, notify its subscribers to that service of the proposed modification in the conditions of the contract for that service, and their right to withdraw without penalty from such contract if they do not accept the modification.

    ^^^
    The above are the quoted regulations on the vodafone site.
    Due to a re-assignment of various access point names (APNs) in our Perfect Choice Access Plus plans, with effect from 1st July 2010, Clause 8 of the Terms and Conditions of Vodafone Perfect Choice Access Plus will be removed and replaced as follows:

    “A Customer may use the monthly allocation of data to access Vodafone Live. Any unused allocation cannot be carried over to the next month.”
    In view of the above change to these terms and conditions, please contact us within 30 days if you wish to terminate your account without penalty. See the full contractual terms.

    ^^^
    This part is what they want to change in their own T&C of their contracts. But it doesn't affect the regulations. I think they're just trying it on by saying they'll cancel the account. It would be great to see someone test this (perhaps in court) if vodafone were sticking to it.. The above has to be regarded as a penalty.


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    #557
    micks
    Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭micks


    opinion guy wrote: »
    That sounds like it breaches the no penalty part of section 17. I'd challenge them on that if it were me.

    Besides - thats a stupid tactic since it will only drive away customers. Theres a lot of O2 people on here getting out of contract but staying with O2.

    Last wed I read this and got out of my O2 contract, told lads in work a few more got out of theirs. Thurs I read here about the other providers having similar notices and passed on to the lads in work. 1 with Vodafone rang and quoted the reg and they were fine and agreed that he coul dget out of his contract but HERE they had details and had
    In view of the above change to these terms and conditions, please contact us within 30 days if you wish to terminate your account without penalty.
    at the bottom of the page.

    They said they were taking number off him also that he'd have to basically wipe his history with them. Last I heard he was saying he was going to a solicitor which they encouraged. Prob get an update mon.

    Another was with Meteor and has been fighting with them for ages to get out saying it wasnt explained to him properly. He agrued that they had not informed him of changes made to the contract a while back and that a notice in the media was not sufficent. After over a hr on the phone to several people he was released. Apparently they never thought of texting all customers to notify them of changes to the contract.

    O2 seem to be the most decent at handling the chaos!


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    #558
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    The thing is that none of the mobile companies will let you test their contracts in a court of law. They will sooner settle with you with a goodwill gesture than allow a judge decide.


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    #559
    Kensington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    This was discussed before in the thread. I still disagree with the earlier and above interpretations. From my reading of it contracts and service are two separate things. They are mutually exclusive. There are customers on all networks in and out of contract still getting service and these haven't been forced in to new contracts or forced off networks. Your contract is just to agree to the service for a minimum period of time.
    No, your contract with the network is for them to provide you with service in return for a pre-defined monthly payment. Once you have an active postpay plan at any stage, you're in a contract!

    One of the terms of most postpay contracts are that you must remain in that contract for a pre-defined period. Once you are outside of your minimum term, you are no longer bound by that particular term - but your contract remains in place until you inform O2 or whoever it is, that you no longer wish to carry on with it.

    Another term of contracts are that you must give 30 days notice, in writing, if you want to terminate. And you have to do this regardless of how long outside of the minimum term you are. Until you give 30 days notice of termination of your contract, it remains. It's the same with most other service providers - sky, eircom, upc, even prepay as mentioned ( eg. you must top up a certain amount within a given period, must make a chargeable call within a defined time etc.)

    As I say, O2 appear to be handling it fairly gracefully at the moment, but it is advisable to get anything said to you in writing so that you have official proof.

    Let's say O2 did decide to lock anyone still on the same plan, come cut-off date, back into their contract with the argument it was deemed you accepted the new terms by remaining on that plan. If you took it to small claims court, it's not going to stand in your favour if your argument is that you didn't agree to the change of contract terms, yet made absolutely no movement to close your account with O2.


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    #560
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Kensington wrote: »
    No, your contract with the network is for them to provide you with service in return for a pre-defined monthly payment. Once you have an active postpay plan at any stage, you're in a contract!

    One of the terms of most postpay contracts are that you must remain in that contract for a pre-defined period. Once you are outside of your minimum term, you are no longer bound by that particular term - but your contract remains in place until you inform O2 or whoever it is, that you no longer wish to carry on with it.

    Another term of contracts are that you must give 30 days notice, in writing, if you want to terminate. And you have to do this regardless of how long outside of the minimum term you are. Until you give 30 days notice of termination of your contract, it remains. It's the same with most other service providers - sky, eircom, upc, even prepay as mentioned ( eg. you must top up a certain amount within a given period, must make a chargeable call within a defined time etc.)

    As I say, O2 appear to be handling it fairly gracefully at the moment, but it is advisable to get anything said to you in writing so that you have official proof.

    Let's say O2 did decide to lock anyone still on the same plan, come cut-off date, back into their contract with the argument it was deemed you accepted the new terms by remaining on that plan. If you took it to small claims court, it's not going to stand in your favour if your argument is that you didn't agree to the change of contract terms, yet made absolutely no movement to close your account with O2.
    I suppose a couple of things. If you port you dont need to give 30 days notice. I have an email stating my commitment to O2 has ceased. My service continues. I still think that any company would find it very hard to convince a judge that they can restart my contract beyond the 12th July with my email evidence. But one important things is Haddocks point above. I think he's bang on. We're certainly not going to sort this out here. The evidence is that O2 (rightly or out of their own kindness) are releasing people from contracts and if they reinstated them beyond the 12th...well there'd be some uproar and bad publicity followed by mass exodus. I still feel the wording of the regulations is removal from contract but without penalty means just that. Only way to really confirm is if someone took a case and in this case there's no need since O2 seem to be releasing people.


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    #561
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Something to argue about over in legal discussion me thinks.


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    #562
    Kensington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    I suppose a couple of things. If you port you dont need to give 30 days notice. I have an email stating my commitment to O2 has ceased. My service continues. I still think that any company would find it very hard to convince a judge that they can restart my contract beyond the 12th July with my email evidence. But one important things is Haddocks point above. I think he's bang on. We're certainly not going to sort this out here. The evidence is that O2 (rightly or out of their own kindness) are releasing people from contracts and if they reinstated them beyond the 12th...well there'd be some uproar and bad publicity followed by mass exodus. I still feel the wording of the regulations is removal from contract but without penalty means just that. Only way to really confirm is if someone took a case and in this case there's no need since O2 seem to be releasing people.
    True! For the sake of good PR, they'd be as well off to take the hit and make sure whoever writes their contracts never makes a muck up like that again :)


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    #563
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Wouldn't it be bizarre if it turned out that O2 were not legally required to keep us on their network and that they could have forced us off? I'd imagine the majority of customers would not have left under those circumstances and would have remained in contract. I'd bet then their legally dept would all be fired. Bizarre situation altogether


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    #564
    bkehoe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    With regard to Vodafone, the change does affect me as I need to use the APNs that they're removing access to. Yes paying another 10 euro for a bundle is the solution and obviously their intention though if they weren't so fussy with the restrictions on the Live APN then it'd be fine with the new terms.

    However, can I not invoke my right to cancel the contract for PCA+ and choose another Vodafone price plan which does suit my needs (I'm tariff locked until August due to taking an upgrade in January), e.g. Simply or Perfect Choice with an add-on data bundle which covers every APN? I don't understand why they want to force you to cancel your account and loose your number if you don't agree with paying the same for service with less features.


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    #565
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    bkehoe wrote: »
    With regard to Vodafone, the change does affect me as I need to use the APNs that they're removing access to. Yes paying another 10 euro for a bundle is the solution and obviously their intention though if they weren't so fussy with the restrictions on the Live APN then it'd be fine with the new terms.

    However, can I not invoke my right to cancel the contract for PCA+ and choose another Vodafone price plan which does suit my needs (I'm tariff locked until August due to taking an upgrade in January), e.g. Simply or Perfect Choice with an add-on data bundle which covers every APN? I don't understand why they want to force you to cancel your account and loose your number if you don't agree with paying the same for service with less features.

    Call them. Make your case quoting the regulations and let us know how you get on. Be polite but persistent emphasising the without penalty clause of the regulations if they try to force you to close your account. If they tell you you have to leave tell them this is a penalty. Make sure you post how you get on.


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    #566
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Haddockman wrote: »
    Something to argue about over in legal discussion me thinks.
    I have started a new thread here to see what the legal eagles think.


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    #567
    JoeB-
    Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭JoeB-


    O2 have the option of refusing to allow people to exit contracts early and instead they could simply not change the terms of the contract, then you wouldn't be able to invoke Reg 17.

    The prices on the website are still the old prices, so it might be possible to sign up today, and cancel tomorrow due to them changing the contract on the 12th.

    I'm considering doing this...but I am a bit worried 'coz they might say 'sorry, instead of releasing you after a day we'll just keep you on the contract you signed up to, i.e on the old prices.'.

    That's no problem, I have a plan to counter that... I'll let you all know after I use it... I don't want too many people using it before me, .. they might cotton on, and do of several things that they could do to prevent people exiting... like changing the Terms now for all new signups, instead of waiting until July 12th., or not changing the terms at all for some customers.


    It seems that O2 want everyone paying the same rates, they don't seem to want some customers on one rate, and others on another,.. and because of this they have to allow people to exit the contract, as they're changing the terms.


    They are definitely within their rights to force people off the network if they cancel the contract... once you cancel the contract that's it.. neither party has any obligations to the other.. simple.. and O2 have no obligation to take you back on.
    People who see this refusal to allow you to continue from month to month as a penalty are wrong... O2 allow you to exit the contract with no penalty, then there are no obligations on either side... any further action taken or not taken isn't taken under the old, cancelled contract, and so it can't be considered a penalty under the old, cancelled policy, how could it be?

    Of course it would seem to make more sense for them to keep you as a customer rather than let you go, but they are free to do either.


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    #568
    JoeB-
    Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭JoeB-


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    This was discussed before in the thread. I still disagree with the earlier and above interpretations. From my reading of it contracts and service are two separate things. They are mutually exclusive. There are customers on all networks in and out of contract still getting service and these haven't been forced in to new contracts or forced off networks. Your contract is just to agree to the service for a minimum period of time. What vodafone are doing if it's true is a form of penalty which the regulations state is illegal. You just have to stand your ground on the matter. Under the regulations if they change the T&C of your plan and you disagree you are entitled to be removed from your commitment but that is all. They cannot force you off the network for this reason specifically. They are just threatening that on people to see if they'll crack or hold their ground

    This is wrong. Every mobile customer is on a contract... maybe not a contract which has a minimum term, but a contract nonetheless. It is simply a rolling contract. If there were no contract you would not have to pay any money, and they wouldn't have to do bugger all.

    You say you just have to stand your ground... that's all very well, but the truth is you may have to go to court to fight your case, and that may be very expensive.


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    #569
    JoeB-
    Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭JoeB-


    micks wrote: »
    Vodafone have change T&C's and are taking a different stance ie if you call to cancel under reg 17 they cancel your account from the next day, number everything gone.

    Vodafone are entirely within their rights to cancel your service, however they cannot cancel your number. The problem is though that they could break the law and cancel your number anyway, and then you'd have to take them to court, which would be expensive.

    For many people losing your number would be serious, so it is a valid threat.

    It's a bullying tactic by Vodafone if true....


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    #570
    JoeB-
    Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭JoeB-


    The phone number issue is worrying..

    From the O2 T&Cs
    O2 wrote:
    You acknowledge that you have no proprietary rights in the telephone number allocated to you. We reserve the right to withdraw this number at any time.

    This means that if you're with O2, they could just withdraw your number, ... which could be devastating to some people... for example, tradesmen that have the number printed on stationery and on vans etc, and on other documentation.

    I thought that there was some security of your number, and it couldn't just be taken away from you. Does anyone know of any such protection?

    There could be protection and O2 could be wrong to say that there's none. Has anyone ever heard of protection for you number?, maybe on the COMREG website?

    So perhaps Vodafone would be able to take your number from you.. which would be very unfair if so, especially if they used that possibility as a threat.

    Cheers so,
    Joe


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    #571
    JoeB-
    Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭JoeB-


    Hmmmm.. it's murky.

    From the AskComreg site at
    http://www.askcomreg.ie/mobile/mobile_number_portability.19.LE.asp

    It seems that you do in fact have some rights to your number, and O2 are wrong to say that you do not.
    AskComreg wrote:
    Mobile Number Portability (MNP) is a facility which allows mobile subscribers to retain their mobile number when moving between mobile networks. This means that all mobile customers with an 083, 085, 086 or 087 mobile number can move to a new operator and keep their existing mobile number.

    That quote above from AskComreg directly contradicts and invalidates O2's claim that you have no rights to your number... you do have rights according to AskComreg. See O2's claims below.
    O2 T&Cs wrote:
    You acknowledge that you have no proprietary rights in the telephone number allocated to you. We reserve the right to withdraw this number at any time.


    The reason it's murky is because of the process of porting... to do so you must set up an account with a new provider, and then they get your number from your old provider. However, if you cancel a contract with your old provider, under Reg 17 for example, then you are not porting your number according to the accepted process, and so it may be that it can be lost. But if you port your number according to the established methods, you can't also cancel your old contract under Reg 17, 'coz you are now cancelling your old contract due to porting your number, not because of Reg 17.
    Can a person both port their number and end a contract early under Reg 17?, from what I read I don't believe so.

    That is a very subtle argument above, and worth reading again if you're in any doubt, .. but it is what Vodafone may be taking advantage of... and why they can threaten people who attempt to end contracts early under Reg 17 with losing their number... because you can't simultaenously end your contract early under Reg 17 AND port your number, you can only do one or the other, which disadvantages the consumer.

    Any thoughts?
    I will have to write to COMREG to ask them about this... but they don't like me much and so they may not answer.


This discussion has been closed.
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