Auschwitz Museum Director Reveals 'Gas Chamber' Hoax

T real deal J wrote: »

Absolute garbage. 1 million people simply disappeared into thin air? Cop on.

em...which 1 million people are you talking about?

Pre 1990 Auschwitz claim


Post 1990 Auschwitz claim


because it seems 2.5 million disappeared in the blink of an eye beteween 1989 & 1990 (45 years after the end of the war), if the 2 pics above are anything to go by

which is true ? that's the basis of the whole discussion here, seperating information from disinformation, while we're still allowed to.

.

T real deal J wrote: »

The 1 million people who were sent there and didn't make it out alive. The Germans meticulously recorded these movements in their paperwork. The germans have paperwork for every single person (jewish or otherwise) that was sent there. Read Martin Gilbert's "the holocaust". He references german records of jewish extermination.

So let me get this straight, you're claiming only 1 million people died at Auschwitz? despite the fact the plaque currently on display at Auschwitz says 1.5million people, so who exactly is the Holocaust denier here ? you or me ?

T real deal J wrote: »

Now, you've posted 2 photographs here. The 2nd one could be from anywhere. They prove nothing and this is just speculative holocaust denial. Who put them up? Why? This garbage is weakly speculative, devious and not researched in depth. It is an insult to the former jewish population of europe completely wiped out.

you may well believe it's from anywhere, but it just so happens to be the one on display in Auschwitz today, unless it's recently been lifted along with the 'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign ?

.

Artur.PL wrote: »

In 1945 Russian counted about 5 milion killed people. They have counted how many gas chambers were in the camp and how many people could be killed there every single day.
It was official version till 1989. Polish historians could do nothing because communist party stopped them.

Thanks Arthur.PL, that touches on some of the points I raised in post #15, that much of what we have been told has been heavily influenced by Communist Cold War tension between the USSR and the Americans.

also, your spelling is fine, I'm sure everyone reading can understand what you mean without any problems.

.

Artur.PL wrote: »

In 1945 Russian counted about 5 milion killed people. They have counted how many gas chambers were in the camp and how many people could be killed there every single day.
It was official version till 1989. Polish historians could do nothing because communist party stopped them.

This also begs the question that, if the official death toll for Auschwitz was exposed as bunkum, then the deathtolls for other Polish camps could be suspect too, as the vast majority of information about them came from the Soviets as well.

@ T "real deal" J

look, despite what you might be thinking, nobody is just getting on your case here, nobody.

the whole point of the thread here is 'open discussion about the Holocaust', and everybody's contributions are welcome. It's in nobodys interest that this thread turns into a cat fight and ends up being closed.

I think it might be an idea that you read the thread from the start just so you can see for yourself where everybody stands on this, and I think it's important to point out that the thread is not a platform for anyone who thinks the Holocaust was a good thing, nor is it a platform for 'Jew Baiting' or hatred for other races.

The Holocaust, just like everything else, has been, and still is in my opinion, embroiled in politics. Some of it has been embroidered by interest groups to push their agenda, and in the course of that, has been presented to the world with heaps of poetic licence.

The object of the exercise here is to seperate the wheat from the chaff, and to try to determine what was feasible, possible, and factual. It's a very sensitive subject, everyone here acknowledges that, and by and large, these sensitivities are respected.

this thread is about opinion, everybody's opinion. Luckily we can still have free opinion about this subject in Ireland, because here we don't have insane 'thought policing' Holocaust Denial laws..... yet...

on that note, for anyone who has just arrived on this thread...

PLEASE read the thread from the beginning. It's unfair for anyone to just wade in at the end and make self righteous assumptions about people, and please try to remember, that being called a 'Holocaust Denier' is not nice, it's right up there with 'Paedophile' and 'Rapist' in many people's eyes.

Thanks.

T real deal J wrote: »

I don't see what the point of this thread is. "Open discussion on the Holocaust" you say. Bull. "Auschwitz Museum Director Reveals Gas Chamber Hoax" is quite more directional and implicative.

Well... I believe you'll find, that I didn't start this thread. If you have some issue about the thread title? take it up with the OP, Polishpaddy. It just so happens that the thread has since evolved, into what I still believe, is an open discussion regarding the Holocaust, generally. Or perhaps you'd prefere the term 'open debate' ? I'm easy either way, as long as nobody's right to free speech, free opinion, and freedom of expression is infringed upon. We are living in Ireland here, a constitutional democracy, NOT Nazi Germany, or some other country where questioning the status quo on this issue, can land you in jail. I will reserve my entitlement to ask questions about this issue freely if I wish. This is a free country, and as a citizen, that is my right.

T real deal J wrote: »

A more open discussion would discuss the collaboration of other countries with the germans in the holocaust or the Catholic church's collaboration in the rounding up of jews. Holocaust perpetrators flocked to the vatican post war so they could get false documents from the Monsignors to go to south america. This is fact. Not opinion..

Nobody's disputing Holocaust complicity, in terms of other countries, the Catholic Church or Vatican. Those facts are documented, and I'm pretty sure everyone here is aware of that, but you seem to be under the impression that complicity was confined to the territories occupied by the Nazis. Unfortunately that wasn't the case. Not only did the British Foreign Office scupper any attempts to enable large amounts of Jews to enter Britain before the war, but flat refused to bomb Auschwitz Birkeneau later, despite the fact that bombing missions carried out on the Auschwitz Monowitz complex (which they were attacking because of the production of synthetic fuel there) would have brought them directly over the Birkineau complex. Furthermore, despite pleas from Jewish lobbiests based in Britain, a directive was issued to junior officials in the Foreign Office to 'Not entertain any further requests of this nature' with regard to bombing Auschwitz Birkeneau. Pretty noble of the British, wouldn't you say ?

Jewish refugees encountered similar problems trying to enter the US, with large corporations like 'Chase Manhattan Bank', extorting monies from only the wealthiest Jews, in order to get into the country. Oliver stone is currently in the process of making a movie highlighting the level of Holocaust complicity on the Allied side, implicating Organisations such as Chase Manhattan, and IBM. So yes, it would seem that Holocaust complicity has cast a very long and embarrassing shadow. It's just that it stretches far beyond the borders of Nazi occupied Europe. The problem is, that most of us that have been aware of the fact for years, have been labeled 'quacks' up to now, but it is certainly no secret, just a huge embarrassment for the Allies, AKA 'the good guys'.

In fact, digging a little further, you'll find that certain occupied European countries have a far better track record for protecting their Jews. Denmark for example shipped nearly all of their Jews to the safety of Sweden in a very short period of time, to prevent them falling into the hands of the Nazis. They did so, ironically, on the basis of an overt tip-off from the leading Nazi in charge of the country. The Italians, and Mussolini in particular was very very reluctant to co-operate in the rounding up of Italian Jews, and many bureaucratic efforts were made to throw a spanner in the works for the Nazis in this regard. It would seem, despite Nazi occupation, both countries (& one an Axis Ally of Germany) did more to ensure the safe passage of European Jews than the Allies did in most cases.

You are absolutely correct to point out Vatican complicity in aiding war criminals like Adolf Eichmann and Joseph Mangele to obtain Red Cross documentation, in order to evade capture, and the role some Monsignors had in this. However, you neglect to mention the role of Irish Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty, who was instrumental in helping Jews flee the Nazis, through the Vatican, during the war. In fact he practially taunted the Nazis to try to catch him doing so. Nor do you mention Clemens August Graf von Galen An outspoken critic of the Nazi regime, who issued forceful, public denunciations from within Germany, of the Third Reich's euthanasia programs. An integral part of, and arguably the beginning, or the experimental stepping stone, of what could be called the Holocaust.

Despite these oversights, I'll refrain from making any inferences of 'Anti-Christianism' on your part, for only seeming to notice the negative, in this instance, with regard to the Vatican, and the Catholic Church, an organisation I might add, for which I have no special love anyway.

T real deal J wrote: »

As above, yes I have read the start of the thread. Fact. Dr. Franciszek Piper established 1.1m (1m jews) were sent to and killed at Auschwitz. But this is besides the point. This is not an "open discussion" on the holocaust.

You seem to have great faith in the integrity of Dr. Franciszek Piper, it's the second time you've cited him. That's something I must admit I find rather remarkable, considering it was his on-screen admission in the 'Cole in Auschwitz' video which lead to this thread being started in the first place.

Are you aware of the fact Dr. Franciszek Piper (the man you have cited twice to support your claims) has publicly admitted that the 'Gas Chamber' in Auschwitz I, was in fact, fabricated after the war by the Soviet Union? Apparently on the direct orders of Josef Stalin. What Piper said, in effect, and on camera, was that the explosive 1988 Leuchter Report was correct, and that no homicidal gassings took place in the buildings designated as 'homicidal gas chambers' at Auschwitz I.

So, that considered, do you still think Dr. Franciszek Piper is a man of honourable integrity? or might he fall into the catagory of a Holocaust denier?

T real deal J wrote: »

This sounds like palestinian cause rhetoric. I surmise that this implies that Israel is exaggerating the Holocaust for it's own political ends (what else would you be pointing at). I sympathise with the Palestinian situation but the suggestion that Israel is using the holocaust as a preempt for incursions into the west bank and gaza is incorrect. This would display a lack of understanding of the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

The point I was making with reference to 'politics' here is the simple fact that the Nazi Holocaust is frequently dragged into the equation by Israel, with regard to the Middle East, and used as an idealogical weapon, to 'bludgen critics of Israel into silence'. Professor Norman Finkelstein touches on some of what I mean @ 09:00mins into this YouTube lecture. That is the only context in which I meant 'embroiled in politics' with regard to the Holocaust.

T real deal J wrote: »

Fact. 6 million jews were killed by genocide in WW2.

Early calculations range from 5.1 million from Raul Hilberg, to 5.95 million from Jacob Leschinsky, and British historian Martin Gilbert, who you have already mentioned, arrived at a number of 5.75. So despite the fact that those 3 respected academics can't agree on a figure, you are absolutely sure of the 6million figure?
Is that what I am to understand?

Out of those 3, Raul Hilberg is the one I would be given to relying upon most, for 2 reasons. Firstly, because his first edition of 'The destruction of the European Jews' was written in the 50's, not long after the event took place, and the availability of living witnesses, and documentation, more likely, and Secondly, in my opinion, any work written after 1967 is unfortunately, more likely to be contaminated with Middle Eastern politics. If you're unsure about what I mean there, I will be a little more specific.

Prior to 1967 there were only 2 proper scholarly works written about the Holocaust, Hilbergs 'The destruction of the European Jews' and another Jewish scholar, whos' name escapes me at time of posting, wrote a very detailed, and well researched piece of work on the Gestapo. Since 1967 there have been thousands of so called 'scholarly' works written on the Holocaust, many published by what are called 'Vanity Press Publishers' where you essentially pay to have your work published, and these works, by and large, are not peer reviewed by any respected Historians of the period.

Also, what comment do you have to make regarding the Letter published in 1919, by Martin H Glynn which was posted earlier in the thread, and who cited the 6million figure 6 times ? coincidence ?

T real deal J wrote: »

What are you on about with your poetic licence.

Here's what I'm on about with my poetic licence. Let's just take Schindlers List for starters, as an example, since it's very possibly the best known movie, relating to the Holocaust.

1: Here is a well known still picture, taken from Schindlers List, showing SS Kommandant Amon Goth, shooting at prisoners in the Plaslow KZ from the balcony of his house located on the complex.


There's only one problem with that, if we're going by the book here. It's a simple impossibility for that to have ever happened, as it's been presented to us by Stephen Spielberg. Why ? Because Amon Goths house was located on the other side of the hill, and didn't overlook the Plaslow camp compound. Also The Stable boy who helped Amon Goeth was not shot, and he in fact survived the Holocaust.

Here is a real picture of Amon Goth and a friend sitting on his actual balcony, and as you can see,the camp compound is not visible from his balcony..


See ? Poetic Licence, and factually untrue.

(The following 3 points are taken, more or less, directly from the source cited below piont 4)

2: Another point is with regard to Itszak Stern (69518) working for Schindler in the “Emalia” factory as his accountant. Stern never worked for Schindler. Schindler's accountant and factory manager was the Jew Abraham Bankier (69268). Bankier was the previous owner of “Emalia” under the commercial business name “Rekord”. Ousted from his own factory by bankruptcy, Bankier became the manager for Schindler and to many of the “Schindler Jews” was the “king-pin” behind most of Schindler's activities.*

3: The “List” of Oskar Schindler is not as straightforward as one might think. Although it remains the framework from which everything radiates, it takes on different and perplexing guises as the Schindler story unfolds. What we must appreciate is that the “list” we identify with Schindler, i.e., the list of names he selected for the exodus of his “Schindler Jews” on the transport from KL (Concentration Camp) Plaszow to Brunnlitz in October 1944, should not be directly identified with the “list” that can be located in the archives at Yad Vashem. The Yad Vashem “list” is a German document drawn up from a list of names presented to them on behalf of Schindler and subsequently initially processed (with alterations and replacement names made for personal gain) by the Jew, Marcel Goldberg (69510) in the labour office of Plaszow and later in the administration department of Gross-Rosen Concentration camp.*

4: The basis of Schindler's original list was the 300 Jews retained for decommissioning purposes in the “Emalia” factory when it was being closed down in August 1944. It was these Jews who were the first batch to be transferred to Brunnlitz. The remainder of his workers, some 800, had been sent to Plaszow. Apart from a small number of personally sanctioned Jews chosen by Schindler, the names of the remainder that were to make up the Brunnlitz transport were left in the hands of Marcel Goldberg (69510) and SS-Unterscharfuhrer (Corporal) Smith of the Jewish labour office in Plaszow. This is when the wheeling and dealing and the corruption took place and the corruption when diamonds talked. Some of the most distinguished community leaders were removed from the list and replaced by those who could pay. Schindler had almost nothing to do with the list as he was in Jail at the time.*

*Source for points 2, 3,& 4

5: The girl in the red clothing, seen by Schindler as she tried to escape the ghetto, later reappears dead, exhumed and burned at the Plaszow camp, still in her red clothes. All Jews were told to disrobe completely before they were gassed at the camps, and their clothes were sent to Germany as part of the "Spinnstoffsammlung" action - collecting of clothes, boots etc. for the purpose of German soldiers and their families. It is very unlikely that the Germans made an exception and left one girl dressed.

should I move on to the Boy in the Striped Pyjamas ? Not to mention the hoax uncovered in Morlars post # 134 here


Finally, I think you should remind yourself of exactly what I do believe about the Holocaust, from things I have previously posted here, like some of the extracts below.

Post#15 - Now there is absolutely no doubt, historically, idealogically, or otherwise, that the Nazis hated Jews, and that hundreds of thousands of Jews were singled out, rounded up and shot in pogroms all over Eastern Europe. There is plenty of newsreel showing this to be the case, particularlly the mass executions, and pograms by locals, in Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuainia.

Post#17 - Firstly, I'm not saying NOBODY was ever gassed in a concentration camp by the Nazis. I am simply questioning the numbers, and disputing whether Zyklon B was used to gas hundreds of thousands of people at Auschwitz, because given the evidence I cannot see how it was logistically possible. If anything, I'm actually looking for answers here......There is every possibility the Nazis tried using Zyklon B to gas people, but it is not a suitable chemical at all, for gassing executions. Even under the right conditions, it simply takes too long to work.

Post#24

Post#48 - Let's be honest with each other here, there's a lot of **** on the interweb about the Holocaust, coming from both sides of the divide..........Between us, we may disagree on figures here, but nevertheless, millions of people did die.
It's a serious business we're discussing, let's treat it with the respect it deserves.

It's late, so with all due respect, I will deal with any typos etc, tomorrow.

Morlar wrote: »

Here is another less formal example, this is from boards.ie today.

The point of posting this is to illustrate the widespread prevalence of this tactic in the area of day to day conversations and to illustrate just how much mileage pro israel advocacy groups clamour to wring out of this subject ;

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64495929&postcount=79
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64496998&postcount=98
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64497956&postcount=126
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64498948&postcount=153


That was one thread by one GIYUS type of israeli advocacy poster. To say that pro israel advocacy groups do use the holocaust to justify israeli warcrimes is not accurate at all.

Sykes is a troll who was banned. I don't think you can use one troll as an example of anything.

The baseline intent of this thread seems to be towards disproving the extent of the holocaust and the means used to carry it out. It seems to me this thread would be better served in the conspiracy theory forum.

gbee wrote: »

Sorry for being silly, but I don't get the thread.

Was there a gas chamber there and it was destroyed by the Russians and then ordered to be rebuilt?

There were gas chambers in Auschwitz, called bunker 1 and bunker 2, (also called 'The little red house' and 'The little white house'). They were 2 old farmhouses that were adapted to use as chambers. Gassing took place in these buildings from march and june 1942 respectively, until mid 1943. They were then completely destroyed by the Germans themselves.

some info and pics here. This is where I believe most of the Auschwitz gassings took place.

This building in Auschwitz 1 is shown to tourists today as a gas chamber, and it is that building that has come under scrutiny.

gbee wrote: »

Or are we saying that there never was any gassing?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never claimed no gassings ever took place in Auschwitz, only that the buildings shown to people today were not the gas chambers.

I personally do not believe the building in Auschwitz 1 (This building) was ever used for a gassing, because, in my opinion, it is unsuitable, and would be unsafe.

There is also a claim that the buildings in Auschwitz 2 were 'purpose built gas chambers' and I don't believe they were, because they couldn't be more badly designed for this purpose.

Thanks to the link posted by Sgt. Sensible a few posts back, Van Pelt even as good as accepts this, because he has uncovered evidence that there was an 'attempt to convert the basment area' of these buildings (a morgue) for use as a gas chamber.

Personally I believe any attempt to do this would be fraught with techinical problems, such as explosion risk, difficulty in ventilation and the fact that Zyklon B needs a temp of 25degrees C to work. So this cold damp basement room would have had to be pre heated.

What we are led to believe is that the gassing process was an easy thing to do. That you simply pile 1500 people into these rooms, throw in the zyklon B, wait 20 minutes, empty the rooms and then burn the bodies. That would suggest a fast turnaround, thus enabling hundreds of thousands of people to be killed. I personally do not think this could have been achieved, because of the technical considerations involved.

Belief in a fast turnaround might explain why the Soviets arrived at a figure of 4 million victims, initially, for Auschwitz. A slow turnaround, or gassing in much smaller buildings, like bunker 1 and bunker 2, would, in my opinion, be more likely, and would thus explain why the 4 million figure has, since 1989, been revised down to 1.5 million people (if you trust the plaque on display) or 1 million people (if you trust Dr Piper, the Museum Director.

Here are 2 good comparison links, one from a revisionist site and the other from a holocaust memorial site

compare them, it's interesting.

Bringing this back to the thread title, in relation to the gas chamber below, shown to tourists in Auschwitz 1.


The assertion in the OP was that this room was never used as a gas chamber, despite the fact it is shown to thousands of tourists every year, as a homicidal gas chamber.

There are some things everyone should see in relation to why the building has come under scrutiny.

Check these photos of other gas chambers located in the Majdanek and Stutthof camps.
I'm using these examples because they illustrate very clearly, their suitability for use as gas chambers, and show the tell tale signs of repeated exposure to Zyklon-B gas.

Majdanek Chamber showing the blue staining caused by repeated exposure to Zyklon-B...


....and take note of the fact that the door opens outwards.


Stutthof gas chamber. The chamber is a free standing detached structure, is above ground, and take note of the fact that the door opens outwards.


Stutthof gas chamber showing the blue staining caused by repeated exposure to Zyklon-B


More examples of blue staining, and an example of a gas tight hatch.




Below are pics of the Interior of the Gas Chamber in Auschwitz 1, shown to thousands of tourists every year as a homicidal gas chamber.

No blue staining visible ?


2 Doors, one not gas tight, that opens inwards, as opposed to outwards, as in the chambers at the Majdanek and Stutthof camps.


A roof hatch that is far from gas tight.


A picture showing a large opening between the chamber area, and the cremation area, showing the ovens to be less than 10feet away.


Relevant points.

The doors in the chambers at the Majdanek and Stutthof camps open outwards, which makes sense. However the door in the Auschwitz 1 chamber open inwards.
If you're wondering why this makes any difference, consider this.

A group of people are brought into the Auschwitz 1 Chamber to be gassed.
The doors are closed, and a few minutes later, the gas canisters are thrown in through the roof.
What are the people in the room going to do ?
They are all going to run towards the door, in order to try to force it open and escape, aren't they ? There is, after all, plenty of anecdotal evidence about people banging on the inside of the doors, isn't there? So, they eventually succumb to the gas, and die piled up on top of each other where they fall, against the inside of the door.

How are the Sonderkommando gas chamber workers going to get that door open again to remove the bodies ?? Remember, the door opens inwards.

Assuming they could open the door by brute force, how is the room then ventilated? Are the ovens then fueled, fired up, used for the cremation of those victims, and then extinguished again before the next gassing ? Whatever is suggested about diffusion, and ovens being 160feet away (as in the building in Auschwitz 2), I can't see how it would be safe to have the ovens smouldering away in the next room while a gassing is taking place, especially, in the case of the Auschwitz 1 chamber, where there isn't even a door seperating the 2 rooms, just an opening in the wall.

Does that not seem perculiar to anyone else ??

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

It seems to me this thread would be better served in the conspiracy theory forum.

I don't think it belongs in conspiracy theories myself.

If the claim being put forward was that 'No gassings took place during the Holocaust' or indeed that 'The Holocaust did not happen' then yes, that would constitute a conspiracy theory. However what is being examined here is whether the building in Auschwitz 1, shown to tourists every day, was in fact ever used as a gas chamber, thats all.