N4/N5: How should they be developed?

Searched for an N5 thread and got nothing. The N4 after the N6 junction is not considered one of the inter-urbans - on the whole the N4 is not a bad national route - still some work needed on some sections which is planned but the Dromod Roosky DC has made a big difference and the Boyle by pass long in place has made the northern end of the N4 after Carrick a fairly easy drive, although it is wide SC with hard shoulder, rather than DC, and is a notorious speed trap- The Castlebaldwin - Collooney section still needs to be done as does the road in County Longford. On the whole though the N4 has improved immensely.

However the N5 remains a nightmare. With still no Longford bypass and lets face it a pretty grim road all the way through Roscommon and East Mayo.

I had recent correspondence with Fred Barry at the NRA about an alternative way of developing the N4/N5 road.

Simple idea really. I suggested this to the NRA: Look at a map and draw a straight line from Frenchpark to Carrick on Shannon - my suggestion to the NRA was to continue the N5 on this alignment and connect with the N4 at Carrick.

It is a distance of about 22km.

Why - well to simply develop the N4 and N5 in parallel through Roscommon is a waste of money - the new DC around Dromod Roosky is capable of taking 3 times the capacity it is taking on the N4. Upgrading the N5 from Frenchpark to Scramoge a distance of 35 km will pass through considerable archaeology issues around Tulsk, and the N5 Longford bypass to connect with the N4 has not been started, so why not connect the N4 and N5 further north from Longford Town, and simply scrap the 35 km N5 Scramoge - Frenchpark section and indeed the N5 Longford bypass (they are not needed if this new alignment for the N5 is used)

I was quite astonished what Fred Barry CEO of the NRA had to say (very positive really)

"You will be pleased to know that we have already been considering the possibility of improving the N4-N5 connection from near Frenchpark to Carrick on Shannon as an alternative to improving the N5 between Frenchpark and Scramoge, should the archaelogical issues on the N5 prove insurmountable"The letter goes on:

"No decision will be made on this for some time, as the Carrick on Shannon and Ballaghadarreen Bypasses will be built before either the alternatives mentioned above"

I don't know if this thinking has been in the public domain before - I think it makes emminent sense and can't think why the NRA just don't say in public this is what we recommend and get on with it. If they are thinking along these lines I cannot see the Longford N5 bypass being built either.

The alternative route would save on the amount of road pavement that needs laying potentially and also save the need for an N61 southern bypass of Boyle to connect with the N4, look at a map and you will see my reasoning, especially if the N5 link road connected with the N4 around Loch Key Forest Park area.

Personally I think it would make much better use of the improved N4 (ie make the N4 DC all the way to Carrick) and improve traffic flows to and from the West and North West - Anyway food for thought for any N5 and indeed N4 users.

What's the R370 like today? Any use or in bits?

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That would mean no Longford N5 bypass ( but a bendy little relief road jobbie instead) and that the crap stretch from Scramogue to Frenchpark via Strokestown remains as is .

They will love ya in Longford

Sponge - they won't do the crap stretch you refer to if they can't cos of the archaeology at Tulsk which is a big issue...

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Have you any links to help us understand the scale of this Tulsk 'archaeological issue' . Is there a song about it on the lines of 'there's a lot of ruins in Mesopotamia' or am I thinking of the wrong tune there ...hmmmm

Obviously you and Fred can have a knowledgeable natter on it from time to time but I am not up to speed , soz

This should help give you an idea of how important it is. Basically it's Connacht's equivalent of Tara:

Rathcroghan is a complex of archaeological sites near Tulsk in County Roscommon, Ireland. It is identified as the site of Cruachan, the traditional capital of the Connachta. While it is debatable whether this was a place of residence, it had huge importance as a cemetery and also hosted some of the main ritual gatherings in ancient times. It is an important site in Irish mythology, in particular as the seat of Ailill and Medb, king and queen of the Connachta in the Ulster Cycle. It is the setting for the opening section of the Táin Bó Cúailnge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathcroghan

http://www.cruachanai.com/

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Righty ho. I take it the N61 is not on top of any urgent 'to be done' list either .

The N61 needs some pretty awful bends taken out of it between Tulsk and Boyle - and needs some elements of widening and realignment - if you drive it on regular basis the stretch north of the N61/N5 crossroads (ie at Tulsk) is a straight as a roman road for about two miles and could probably be left untouched without major calamity and therefore not upsetting the heritage crowd. Between Roscommon Town and Tulsk it is open to widening but it is not a route which needs DC. Quite a lot of the road on this stretch has very wide verges between existing boundary walls and the edge of the road - my guess is a lot of the land needed for widening is already owned by RCC.
Re the N61 - if the idea of making this N4- N5 connector slightly north of Carrick say from Frenchpark to Loch Key Forest Park it could be used by N61 traffic to avoid Boyle town centre, it would be another project which is scheduled being incorporated into this solution.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They will love ya in Longford

Sponge My idea was not to gain polularity in the town of Longford or in Roscommon county! - I just see it as a more practical solution for the N4/N5 - and clearly one which the NRA was already considering, it would mean less road pavement being laid - it would provide a solution for traffic to the West and it would make more efficient use of the upgraded N4. You see this is one of the problems when infrastructure planning is left in the hands of local politicians - I could never imagine a south roscommon councillor proposing such an idea nor a Longford town councillor - but you see Parish Pump Politicians are not - as I have said before to be really trusted with matters of national planning!

The NRA's plans for the N4 appear to be to dual it all the way, whatever is required - between the Mullingar->Longford scheme, the Carrick bypass and the Castlebaldwin bypass there'd just be a WS2/WS2+C gap of about 20km which I've heard mutterings about an online upgrade to 2+2 for. Virtually all of it is 1990s built offline of the old route so theres little impeding an overlay.

that monument map is quite astonishing - i was just aware that it was a particuarly rich area for monuments and remains etc - maybe the preserving archaeology brigade will this time lead to a better solution - because the NRA will clearly have to find one, and judging by the letter they sent me they pretty much know this is the case.

Yes Serf I would be an advocate to the N5 slightly swinging north to connect with the N4 slightly north of Carrick (to also give boyle its N61 southern bypass), crossing the N61 say about three miles south of Boyle, traffic then going say Sligo - Roscommon - Athlone ont he N61 would avoid Boyle (ok maybe a couple of miles longer but better seamless road).

In the long run i think this option would actually cost less than developing both the N4 and N5 in parallel with each other and of course save on the proposed N61 southern bypass of Boyle.

I should have added that the map above is just in between Tulsk and Bellinagare, Tulsk is on the bottom right just outside the map.

westtip wrote: »

The green line tho is the N5?

Yes, the existing N5.

09bored.ie wrote: »

This is a silly idea i.e. using N4 to boyle It adds at least another 15km onto the journey for Mayo Dublin traffic.

The suggestion was for the N5 to go west at Frenchpark to join the N4 at Carrick - even if this extended the journey from say Castlebar to Dubln by a few Km it would mean the need for less new road pavement than putting in the Scramoge to Frenchpark section of the N5 and resolve the issue of going through all the archaeology around Tulsk; the potential for the N5 to cut into the N4 around Loch key forest park has also been floated out, we need to consider is it economically sound to develop both the N5 from Longford to Frenchpark and indeed the N4 from Longford to Carrick - the answer is probably not. Taking the N5 north from Frenchpark to Boyle probably is a bit out of the way, but it has got potential

Put it this way if the N5 continued as a seamless road from Frenchpark to Carrick even as a WS2 adn then to Dublin via the N4 at Carrick, with the N4 from carrick being DC including a Carrick bypass - and added a few km to the total journey - what would prefer to do - take this route or keep trundling down the N5 to Longford. The choice of course would be there. I m pretty sure which route I would take - and I think I would use less fuel.

MYOB wrote: »

Seeing as the existing N5 can likely *never* be upgraded in parts, its not silly at all. A longer but higher quality, higher average speed route will take the same amount of time as a shorter quality boreen - as the N5 is in parts.

And be much safer, the N5 is a death trap, be more fuel efficient therefore "greener" and probably be quicker - certainly quicker on this route mentioned.

ilovegermany wrote: »

Is the Mullingar to Longford stretch of the N4 planned as full Motorway or 2+2 like the Rooskey/Dromod scheme?

Am I right in saying that the other schemes being proposed on the N4 (i.e. Carrick on Shannon bypass) will be 2+2 and not single carraigeway?

I think 2+2 a la the Dromod Roosky scheme is the plan - although of course tis all a long way off, however like the inter urbans it will happen eventually - the castlebaldwin - collooney bit is planned as 2+2, but really we don't need full grade motorway all the way - 2+2 all the way to Sligo would make the journey a wheeze...and if the link road from Carrick to the N5 was put in place it would really open the routes to the west out big time...

09bored.ie wrote: »

Well you not the only one that was astonished buddy!! I think your a fantasist living in cloud cookoo land as if Fred Barry would write to you! about such a scheme as this!! and as if Fred Barry would say should the archaelogical issues on the N5 prove insurmountable! laughable. What is more it would not be Fred Barry that would be sending the letter to you if such correspondence was entered into anyway.

And whats more there is no such thing as WS2 as you mentioned above. It doesnt exist so you clearly haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Bottom line the traffic will not like your route and will not be attracted to it. Although it is most unlikely either scheme will be built until many years from now.

From the NRA itself- page 7
http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadDesignConstruction/file,3620,en.pdf

"WS:2- Two-lane wide single carriageway, normally with lane widths of 5.0m"

And buddy, there's no need to take out your bad day on people who are informing us about correspondence they've had, the NRA aren't so busy these days that it's entirely beyond belief that Fred Barry would respond to an e-mail.

09bored.ie wrote: »

Then why did they decide to abandon that silly loughrea idea and straight line the M6 from Ballinasloe to Athenry to Galway? Simple answer really, TRAFFIC

Again another silly post that has been proven wrong by the route chosen for the soon to be opened M6 G2BE

Ah, you've edited your post. I'm not editing my first reply though.

No, they moved the route back to pass Athenry because its more direct. Absolutely no Galway to Dublin traffic goes via Athenry because the Loughrea route is now far higher quality, and as a result, quicker.