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Relaxation of restrictions Part II

Tokyo

Continuation of the "Relaxation of restrictions" from here.

Please note that all mod warnings and threadbans carry through from the previous thread.

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FintanMcluskey

Speakerboxx wrote: »

Failed politician, failed business man, and failed broadcaster. Why do we want him back?

Well we have handed complete unquestionable control to -a Dr who covered up a health scandal and refused to answer questions on it, a minister who doesnt know what the 19 in Covid 19 means and they refuse transparency from the NPHET meetings.
I think Ivan is free to ask a few questions

Breezin

Michael Levitt, Stanford Prof. of Biophysics, Cambridge PhD and DSc, 2013 Chemistry Nobel Laureate (complex system), FRS and US National Academy member: The excess burden of death from coronavirus COVID-19 is closer to a month than to a year

... the Western World has been encouraged by their lack of responsibility coupled with uncontrolled media and academic errors to commit suicide for an excess burden of death of one month.

Ginger n Lemon

hmmm wrote: »

That's impossible with a new virus.

Your definition of facts is loose. Antibody testing is suggesting perhaps 0.65% (e.g. New York numbers), but the tests are not particularly accurate at the moment. 0.65% might not sound like much, but it would mean nearly 30,000 deaths in Ireland if left loose.

There is a balance to be found, but I don't share your casual disregard for people over 60 or with underlying conditions. I think we should be trying to protect them, and I doubt you'll get much support for your views.

Ofcourse we need to protect them. We failed protecting 1300 people already.

I am not disregarding them at all, but the numbers clearly say that most deaths occur either in hospitals or nursing homes. We do not have 80% of 1300 people collected from their homes because they got corona on their most recent Aldi trip.

We need to have a clear plan of A)protecting everyone who is over 60 years of age OR people with underlying conditions that are younger than 60 and

keeping the economy going and not putting people into poverty that will cause thousands of deaths 12 months from now.

To achieve A & B only possible way out of this is to tell the younger, healthier population to go to work and NOT interact with elderly (not easy, but has to be done) until a vaccine or a treatment drug has been developed (such has been developed in US already last week). Not have 150 000 + waiters, barbers, shop assistants sitting at home collecting 350 per week and paying 110m + to maintain empty hospitals for another 3 months.

FintanMcluskey

hmmm wrote: »

Right now I'd say most people are glad we have the spare capacity, and aren't going to argue about the cost.

What are you on about? Your obviously not one of the thousands who has had procedures cancelled indefinitely. Its an extremely selfish view to ignore the thousands currently suffering on the back of your happiness with the free beds.
The health effects that will be experienced due to the cancellation of all those treatments is not something that can be justified by free beds just in case

Tenzor07

hmmm wrote: »

We're barely out of the first wave of a pandemic where the original forecasts were that every country would see their hospitals and ICU overwhelmed.
We're still not out of the woods, and the pressure is on to relax the restrictions which have held the virus back. Many forecasters say there will be a second (and possibly further) waves over the rest of the year.

There's an air of unreality in this thread, as if the virus doesn't exist, or we would be happy to see it killing lots of people. We'll need to live with the virus and find ways to do things safely, not pretend it doesn't exist.

So the original prediction of a "Mini-Northern Italy" were wrong, hospitals aren't overrun, private extra capacity beds are almost empty. The transmission rate in the country is down to a level somewhere like 0.5 so the virus can't spread exponentially...

The virus will be with us until a treatment or vaccine is found, so until then get out from underneath your bed and box clever, social distancing and ppe will get the wheels of the economy moving again however slowly...

Speakerboxx

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ivan Yates is the ONLY one on Media challenging the Status Quo of Tony, Leo and Simon. Go Ivan - cant wait until he's back tomorrow and I hope he's in fighting form!

He mentioned on Friday how cynical a move it was for Leo to make his announcement after 6pm on Friday and then on the Late Late, when it meant a full 3/4 days before this could be challenged on the national airways (due to Bank holiday). Very deliberate timing.

Failed politician, failed business man, and failed broadcaster. Why do we want him back?

[Deleted User]

I'm starting to really like this guy, a chief scientist at the ECDC, professor Johann Giesecke and his thoughts on lockdowns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBcqnZUjX9g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SdUmsMLW0o

[Deleted User]

road_high wrote: »

Tuned into Ivan Yates for some common sense...got Mark Cagney with his doom n gloom life changing crap with moany Jess Kelly.

Ivan Yates is the ONLY one on Media challenging the Status Quo of Tony, Leo and Simon. Go Ivan - cant wait until he's back tomorrow and I hope he's in fighting form!

He mentioned on Friday how cynical a move it was for Leo to make his announcement after 6pm on Friday and then on the Late Late, when it meant a full 3/4 days before this could be challenged on the national airways (due to Bank holiday). Very deliberate timing.

hmmm

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

How much hospital and ICU space needed should be correctly estimated by government officials. Not "hindsight".

That's impossible with a new virus.

The virus exists. It has true mortality rate of 0.1-0.5%. 99% of people it has killed are over 60, and have at least 1 underlying health condition. These are facts.

Your definition of facts is loose. Antibody testing is suggesting perhaps 0.65% (e.g. New York numbers), but the tests are not particularly accurate at the moment. 0.65% might not sound like much, but it would mean nearly 30,000 deaths in Ireland if left loose.

There is a balance to be found, but I don't share your casual disregard for people over 60 or with underlying conditions. I think we should be trying to protect them, and I doubt you'll get much support for your views.

Penfailed

road_high wrote: »

Measures started very early March in private capacities. Clients cancelled meetings first week of March with me. Just because the Public dictates were behind the rest of us doesn't mean they were less real. Start was a good two months go.

Oh FFS! Bitch and moan that the government have shut the place down...and then bitch and moan because people took it upon themselves to shut down. Who are you going to get angry at next? Have you lobbied your TD? Have you contacted your local councillor? ...or are you just bitching and moaning on Boards? How's Leo going to know how strongly you feel about it from posts on Boards?

Ginger n Lemon

hmmm wrote: »

We're barely out of the first wave of a pandemic where the original forecasts were that every country would see their hospitals and ICU overwhelmed.

We're still not out of the woods, and the pressure is on to relax the restrictions which have held the virus back. Many forecasters say there will be a second (and possibly further) waves over the rest of the year.

How much hospital and ICU space we will need will only become clear in hindsight. Right now I'd say most people are glad we have the spare capacity, and aren't going to argue about the cost. I'm sure the health service are trying to balance "normal" admissions versus trying to predict how many beds they need for Covid.

There's an air of unreality in this thread, as if the virus doesn't exist, or we would be happy to see it killing lots of people. We'll need to live with the virus and find ways to do things safely, not pretend it doesn't exist.

How much hospital and ICU space needed should be correctly estimated by government officials. Not "hindsight". Currently these estimates are probably 80/90% incorrect.

Currently, most people may very well be happy with empty beds. When their taxes will increase and they ll go "ohh, thats not great, why did they have these empty beds for so long".

The virus exists. It has true mortality rate of 0.1-0.5%. 99% of people it has killed are over 60, and have at least 1 underlying health condition. These are facts. This doesn't justify wasting 10m per month let alone 110m.....

easypazz

CruelSummer wrote: »

The problem is it's costing us at LEAST €110 million per month of money we do not have, while all other out patient appointments and tests are suspended. This is not warranted or justified in any way shape or form, death rate from New York where the virus has run rampant is approx 0.5 - 0.75%. Time to open up and fast before we destroy our economy, health, civil liberties, mental wellbeing, and society.

€700m handed to private hospitals I think I read.

Enough for a brand new state of the art hospital somewhere.

The money poured into this, and very questions asked, is obscene.

hmmm

CruelSummer wrote: »

The problem is it's costing us at LEAST €110 million per month of money we do not have, while all other out patient appointments and tests are suspended. This is not warranted or justified in any way shape or form, death rate from New York where the virus has run rampant is approx 0.5 - 0.75%. Time to open up and fast before we destroy our economy, health, civil liberties, mental wellbeing, and society.

We're barely out of the first wave of a pandemic where the original forecasts were that every country would see their hospitals and ICU overwhelmed.

We're still not out of the woods, and the pressure is on to relax the restrictions which have held the virus back. Many forecasters say there will be a second (and possibly further) waves over the rest of the year.

How much hospital and ICU space we will need will only become clear in hindsight. Right now I'd say most people are glad we have the spare capacity, and aren't going to argue about the cost. I'm sure the health service are trying to balance "normal" admissions versus trying to predict how many beds they need for Covid.

There's an air of unreality in this thread, as if the virus doesn't exist, or we would be happy to see it killing lots of people. We'll need to live with the virus and find ways to do things safely, not pretend it doesn't exist.

Discodog

People are so short sighted. Many think they are being given money & don't realise that it has to be paid back. The HSE will still be a disaster, we will still be building the most expensive children's hospital on Earth & the homeless still won't have anywhere to live.

road_high

Penfailed wrote: »

Six weeks.

Schools closed on the 12th of March.
Pubs and restaurants closed on the 15th of March.
Everything else closed on the 24th of March.

Measures started very early March in private capacities. Clients cancelled meetings first week of March with me. Just because the Public dictates were behind the rest of us doesn't mean they were less real. Start was a good two months go.

fly_agaric

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

IGET MORE ICU BEDS. Why are we paying for empty hospitals but are unable to expand our ICU capacity? ? ?

Without any googling...think it takes 7+ years to train a doctor (to junior doctor level), and is it 4 or so for a basic nursing degree??

Unfortunately, don't think it is as easy as abrakedabra, wave around some euros - Bigger health service! More hospital beds!

edit: I suppose they've kind of tried to do that with the private hospitals but that afair that doesn't seem to be going very smoothly.

Penfailed

road_high wrote: »

We've been closed for 2 months now...i think that ship has already sailed.

Six weeks.

Schools closed on the 12th of March.
Pubs and restaurants closed on the 15th of March.
Everything else closed on the 24th of March.

jackboy

hmmm wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with having capacity during a pandemic in case we see a surge of people needing ICU and hospital care. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you.

A balance need to be struck though. The empty capacity means a lot of people at home suffering with various health issues waiting for an unknown period of time. Lots of cancer patients have had their treatment cancelled with no communication on when the treatment will commence.

The empty capacity is causing much suffering. I understand why it is there but there is massive consequences as long as it lasts.

Penfailed

Stark wrote: »

Telling people travelling to pick up their prescriptions that they have to stay within 2km, ****ing morons. Someone really needs to set them straight on what the law actually is.

You're misquoting it, or the poster has misquoted it, or the newspaper has paraphrased it. I don't even live within 2km of a pharmacy...or a shop for that matter.

CruelSummer

hmmm wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with having capacity during a pandemic in case we see a surge of people needing ICU and hospital care. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you.

The problem is it's costing us at LEAST €110 million per month of money we do not have, while all other out patient appointments and tests are suspended. This is not warranted or justified in any way shape or form, death rate from New York where the virus has run rampant is approx 0.5 - 0.75%. Time to open up and fast before we destroy our economy, health, civil liberties, mental wellbeing, and society.

road_high

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Its difficult because I have finance background. I work in finance. I know that there is no such thing as cheap money or free money.

Reality is there will be protests. Large protests of very angry people later in the year who will be either A) unemployed or taxed very heavily as a result of this reckless spending and absolute shambles of a plan.

PS - ICU capacity hasnt increased. Leo has mentioned that you know we have ICU 100 beds. if ICU is overwhelmed people die. GET MORE ICU BEDS. Why are we paying for empty hospitals but are unable to expand our ICU capacity? ? ?

Indeed. Huge delusion going on currently. Regardless of whether the money is "cheap" or not, it will have to be serviced. That service will be coming from current expenditure. So less money for PS Pay, welfare, disability services, health services etc. Currently living in a kind of fools paradise where any dissension is akin to wanting to murder old people.

KrustyUCC

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Its difficult because I have finance background. I work in finance. I know that there is no such thing as cheap money or free money.

Reality is there will be protests. Large protests of very angry people later in the year who will be either A) unemployed or taxed very heavily as a result of this reckless spending and absolute shambles of a plan.

PS - ICU capacity hasnt increased. Leo has mentioned that you know we have ICU 100 beds. if ICU is overwhelmed people die. GET MORE ICU BEDS. Why are we paying for empty hospitals but are unable to expand our ICU capacity? ? ?

Coronavirus patients could be moved out of Dublin if hospital capacity exceeded

He said baseline ICU capacity across Ireland was 312 beds, but that number was set to rise to 812 under surge planning. He said the plans depended on training up staff and securing more ventilators.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/coronavirus-patients-could-be-moved-out-of-dublin-if-hospital-capacity-exceeded-993035.html

I wonder why our ICU capacity hasn't increased?

FintanMcluskey

hmmm wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with having capacity during a pandemic in case we see a surge of people needing ICU and hospital care. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you.

Can you actually see no issue with 2000 private hospital beds empty for 6 months, while treatments are cancelled during this time?
You seem to welcome this move and believe it worthwhile which is baffling to say the least

lawrencesummers

RugbyLad11 wrote: »

I've had enough so I've decide I've decided I'll see my partner some day this week, don't worry we will just go for a walk with no touching.

The problem is I live around 8KM away, I will cycle it so I'm wondering what is the best excuse to give the Garda when I get stopped on my bicycle

1. Tell them I'm delivering medical supplies (I actually am bringing gloves and hand sanitizer to partner )
2. Tell them I'm out for a cycle and if they ask for address give them a different address less than 5KM away

Enjoy the ride.

Penfailed

DebDynamite wrote: »

Not a Paddy Cosgrave fan at all, but he tweeted a clip earlier today of the New Zealand PM making reference in one of her addresses to how drawn out our opening-up is. She must be wondering now we got it so wrong.

Tried to link it, but it’s not working. Not sure if linking his stuff is allowed or I just didn’t do it right!

Here's the tweet.

Ginger n Lemon

hmmm wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with having capacity during a pandemic in case we see a surge of people needing ICU and hospital care. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you.

Its difficult because I have finance background. I work in finance. I know that there is no such thing as cheap money or free money.

Reality is there will be protests. Large protests of very angry people later in the year who will be either A) unemployed or

taxed very heavily as a result of this reckless spending and absolute shambles of a plan.

PS - ICU capacity hasnt increased. Leo has mentioned that you know we have ICU 100 beds. if ICU is overwhelmed people die. GET MORE ICU BEDS. Why are we paying for empty hospitals but are unable to expand our ICU capacity? ? ?

road_high

hmmm wrote: »

Tenzor07 wrote: »

On the subject of lifting restrictions on Barbers(and hairdressers) surely the use of PPE and perhaps also working off appointments or a ticket system where customers waited outside or didn't arrive until their specified time would allow Salon's to open soon?
/QUOTE]
They are allowed to open in phase 4 (20 July) and listed as a "High risk" activity. They'll need to do stuff like that yes to be allowed reopen, and I suspect many customers will not use them otherwise.

I'm not sure many barbers and their customers would be happy to wear medical grade PPE, so they'll probably be using PPE with less protection.

We can't rush to open too much too soon, because if cases spike upwards we won't know what the cause is - we'd have to close everything again. At least opening in a phased way means those businesses who do open can be reasonably confident they won't have to quickly close again.

We've been closed for 2 months now...i think that ship has already sailed.

hmmm

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I m not sure if you are serious or not... keep empty hospitals for later on? Its not a pack of peanuts really to keep laying around...

I dont know what to say really. I am actually speechless, took me less than 70 posts to hit the speechless wall.

There's nothing wrong with having capacity during a pandemic in case we see a surge of people needing ICU and hospital care. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you.

Stark

Discodog wrote: »

“The traffic flow has been strong throughout the day,” says Sgt Frank Hand. “People are coming in for shopping and for prescriptions in the pharmacies. We are stopping everyone. We check details. We are advising them to stay within the 2km. There are people we are turning around as well – and cyclists.”

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/gardai-report-high-compliance-over-travel-restrictions-39176611.html

Telling people travelling to pick up their prescriptions that they have to stay within 2km, ****ing morons. Someone really needs to set them straight on what the law actually is.

hmmm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

On the subject of lifting restrictions on Barbers(and hairdressers) surely the use of PPE and perhaps also working off appointments or a ticket system where customers waited outside or didn't arrive until their specified time would allow Salon's to open soon?

They are allowed to open in phase 4 (20 July) and listed as a "High risk" activity. They'll need to do stuff like that yes to be allowed reopen, and I suspect many customers will not use them otherwise.

I'm not sure many barbers and their customers would be happy to wear medical grade PPE, so they'll probably be using PPE with less protection.

We can't rush to open too much too soon, because if cases spike upwards we won't know what the cause is - we'd have to close everything again. At least opening in a phased way means those businesses who do open can be reasonably confident they won't have to quickly close again.