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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

Any questions, please feel free to PM the mods.

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[Deleted User]

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

.

For example my brother used to play for a basketball team - from u12 to adult they were exceptional group.

That's it, you've convinced me with this irrefutable piece of evidence.

I retract everything I've said about Dublin GAA. I now believe this is golden generation (singular) of players who are aging terribly, haven't been helped one bit by all the millions and millions of euro they've received and haven't been put in an advantaged position by their population or home advantage either. Sure don't Dublin have the best volunteers in the country and it's only 15 men against 15 at the end of the day, all the money in the world couldn't kick the ball over the bar, it's up to other counties to step up.

If your brother played on a good u12 basketball team how could this not be true. People were probably calling for your brother's team to be split as well were they? Load of begrudgers, no-one said anything about Kilkenny.

gormdubhgorm

gaffer91 wrote: »

That's it, you've convinced me with this irrefutable piece of evidence.

I retract everything I've said about Dublin GAA. I now believe this is golden generation (singular) of players who are aging terribly, haven't been helped one bit by all the millions and millions of euro they've received and haven't been put in an advantaged position by their population or home advantage either. Sure don't Dublin have the best volunteers in the country and it's only 15 men against 15 at the end of the day, all the money in the world couldn't kick the ball over the bar, it's up to other counties to step up.

If your brother played on a good u12 basketball team how could this not be true. People were probably calling for your brother's team to be split as well were they? Load of begrudgers, no-one said anything about Kilkenny.

The point I am making it was the same core of lads as you well know despite the scarcasm.
He was more the EOG making up the numbers. But they all did go on to have a great team, when they went to the same secondary school.
They actually thought they were mascots they were so much smaller than the rest in thier early teens in the Mosney Community games.
You would not have been able to split them too fast!

My point is it an exceptional group of Dubs at the moment. As another poster very eruditely put it the finances were the catalyst not the whole reason.
The manager has to know his stuff and the players have to be good.

It is not like soccer where you can buy players, and in soccer itself there are plenty of examples of teams throwing money at academies and few if any players make it.
Just stand back and think of the sheer quality of these Dublin lads I never saw the like of it until maybe Clifford for Kerry.

I say fair play to all concerned and I just hope I get a ticket for September.

gormdubhgorm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Meath are the 8th most populated county in the country and we are currently ranked 8th in the country. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

We don't have your luxuries and if we had and you had our situation we'd be beating you to a pulp annually.

In fairness if Meath had more money they would be putting more crisps back into the bag of Tayto's - full of air these days!

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

One exceptional group, no issue there. Multiple exceptional groups across different grades, one after the other. That's definitely systematic.

Such as five minor titles in a row? And a semi-final the year after?

Would that be systematic?

ciarang85

blanch152 wrote: »

Such as five minor titles in a row? And a semi-final the year after?

Would that be systematic?

It only applies to Dublin though...

blanch152

gaffer91 wrote: »

This thread seems to be veering a little off topic again- the question isn't whether things were more or less competitive 15 years ago than today. The outcome is actually not the ultimate issue. If Dublin maintained their funding/ population and home pitch advantages for every game, but only finished the season in the qualifiers every year, these unfair leg- ups would still need to be rectified.

Oh, but it is the question. Posters are harking back to the good old days of exciting football and competitiveness before Dublin came along.........except it just isn’t true. Tyrone and Kerry dominated the last decade. The standard of football was dire, in defeat Mayo nearly scored more last Saturday than the aggregate of some of those games.

RoyalCelt

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Don't mind ladies football I doubt you even follow it again that is tiny pool of competition
Your theory is gone when you see the regression in Dublin hurling since 2013 - surely more money would be thrown at it,

Underage success in football is largely down to one spectacular group of players.

For example my brother used to play for a basketball team - from u12 to adult they were exceptional group.

Dublin are closer to winning a hurling all Ireland now then in 2013. Very cycle has peaks and throughs. 2013 was the peak for that team. The current squad hasn't peaked yet and I believe they'll make a few AI semis and leinster finals over the next 5 years.

RoyalCelt

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh, but it is the question. Posters are harking back to the good old days of exciting football and competitiveness before Dublin came along.........except it just isn’t true. Tyrone and Kerry dominated the last decade. The standard of football was dire, in defeat Mayo nearly scored more last Saturday than the aggregate of some of those games.

I don't think the standard was dire. The teams actually kicked the ball back then. None of this backwards for half the match craic. Modern day GAA is more like basketball then football.

If Dublin came up against a team as good as themselves who set up the same the match would be a brutal bore fest. Dublin look good after their superior fitness and conditioning has worn out the opposition and they stroll through them.

Strumms

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Dublin are closer to winning a hurling all Ireland now then in 2013. Very cycle has peaks and throughs. 2013 was the peak for that team. The current squad hasn't peaked yet and I believe they'll make a few AI semis and leinster finals over the next 5 years.

Can you imagine the meltdown if in say six years or whatever Dublin actually in some way managed to win the Hurling, and the football ? In the same year ? Meltdownesque I think.

StupidLikeAFox

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well Tyrone managed to it - in an environment which is more difficult than the environment many other GAA counties have to contend with.

If Tyrone can do it surely Meath-Galway-Cork-Kildare have little excuse?

Dublin have got (and are still getting) special treatment way above what other counties can hope to receive and your response is to ask why other counties can't replicate Tyrone? What's the logic there?

You are right btw, Tyrone and other counties don't have the luxury of relying on the handouts and help ups that dublin have enjoyed over the past number of years. But sure as long as Dublin is winning all around them who cares about the rest right?

When we had a competitive championship with an average Dublin team it was a crisis - we needed an action plan at the highest levels, bucket loads of money and professional structures put in place to sort that out. Now Dublin are dominating, attendances are dropping and there is zero competition but the solution is to take a long hard look at yourself, get your own house in order, nothing to see here.

RoyalCelt

Strumms wrote: »

Can you imagine the meltdown if in say six years or whatever Dublin actually in some way managed to win the Hurling, and the football ? In the same year ? Meltdownesque I think.

When Dublin do finally win the hurling they'll most likely win the football they year too. Yeah huge meltdowns will ensue but I'll be delighted for the hurlers. I'll obviously acknowledge it wouldn't have happened without the many millions in funding but I'll be glad for Dublin all the same. A name on Liam that hasn't been there for ages.

Recently Clare, galway and Limerick bridged huge gaps. I'm hoping waterford, cork. Dublin and Wexford will follow suit over the next decade. Its in the best interests for the sport.

It goes without saying I don't want Dublin to ever dominate the hurling. I don't want any one team to do it.

ClanofLams

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Dublin started at such a low base any half decent plan would see fast improvement in hurling.

You still have no answer the question if you follow your (flawed) logic that progreesion should be faster in hurling and 15 years should be ample time to win at senior inter-county level at hurling. Very small hurling pool in Ireland of competitive counties.
When in fact the Dublin hurlers have regressed at intercounty level for the past 6 years!

It is a mjor flaw in your logic. I would believe your arguement if Dublin had success at intercounty level and even came close to landing liam.
But has not happened.
So your catch all 'financial doping' argument starts to look extremely silly indeed.

Hurling is currently more competitive than Gaelic Football and that’s likely to stay the situation on available evidence. It’s played by fewer counties but a much greater number of counties have a chance at winning the All Ireland. Three different winners in last three years, five different counties in three finals.

Dublin hurling was miles off fifteen years ago, getting knocked out by Westmeath. They were about Leitrim standards in football whereas Dublin footballers were obviously at a much higher level. When you’re starting that far down, it’s inevitably going to take longer to reach the top especially with a less popular sport. So funding has had a massive impact to raise the level of hurling in the county so quickly.

Saying any half decent plan would see fast improvement equivalent to what has happened over the last fifteen years is basically saying the people who were involved in Dublin hurling the previous forty years were complete morons.

Donadea Leo

Lots of interesting points here but I think arguing about blaming dublin or the gaa or other counties misses the route cause I believe. The facilities in dublin clubs are akin to county set ups, the big clubs are amazing, well run, community orientated clubs, training hundreds of children at a time and fair play to them, they are providing a crucial social support to their communities.
This is being actively encouraged by government, they can provide some funding, get the gaa to match it, and viola we can build 10 more housing estates and there s your recreational amenity sorted, nice a cheap and without the government having to take any responsibility for it. Its more than just players benifitting, kids summer camps, couch to 5 k meet ups, 21st birthday parties etc etc. The more participation in gaa in dublin, the less the government have to provide for it. The more they can focus on 20 square miles of infrastructure rather than the whole country.
This isn t possible down the country as the population, jobs, and crucially infrastructure doesn t exist to build big clubs and attract big business.
We absolutely need amenities for people in dublin and the gaa are doing an amazing job of facilitating a lot of this, and the players are benifitting from the increase in revenue, best of everything for the best of players and there is no indication this will change, but I believe it's at the detriment of our game nationwide. It may be worth it if government aren't willing to provide decent services for its citizens without relying on voluntary organisations. People are more important than our game, though it's a pity it seems to be either or.

thesultan

The thing with hurling, they have yet to win an All Ireland in hurling at underage over the last few years . Now they lost three great underage players to football in Costello, Con and Ciaran.

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

Such as five minor titles in a row? And a semi-final the year after?

Would that be systematic?

That's one grade.

Where else are Kerry massively over-achieving in recent years?

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

I love it when somebody doubles down on their discredited point.

Obviously you do, that is all you seem to ever offer to any debate...

The farcical 'special group of players' point for one. You are right, they must be special - their average age is going down. Dublin have a team of Benjamin Buttons on their hands; amazing stuff.
Similarly your exclamations that a team having players from 2015-2019 - a full 4 seasons - is somehow proof that it is one special group of players at play. Most young players are only fully established after 4 seasons involvement these days, so to suggest that this is some indicator of something out of the ordinary is not only nonsensical, but also blantently disingenuous.

But no doubt, you will repeat it all again, doubling down ad naseum. Knock yourself out. It is only yourself you are fooling at the end of the day.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh, but it is the question. Posters are harking back to the good old days of exciting football and competitiveness before Dublin came along.........except it just isn’t true. Tyrone and Kerry dominated the last decade. The standard of football was dire, in defeat Mayo nearly scored more last Saturday than the aggregate of some of those games.

At least it was honest. That is the long and short of it. Tyrone of the 00s were guilty of introducing what can only be described as planned, team-based cynicism to the game, in my opinion. But at least every team could do it if they so wished. What other team can get a government handout and 17 million extra, along with a de facto free stadium where all meaningful games must be played, on top of 10 times the average population?

As I said, at least they were honest. This 5 in a row will only represent how crooked the gaa has become and how incapable dublin were at competing when they only had most things in their favour, rather than everything. Try to wear it well lads, because it will be there forever.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

That's one grade.

Where else are Kerry massively over-achieving in recent years?

Crokes won the AI club 2016, they have also dominated the Munster club championship five in the last 8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wilki/Munster_Senior_Club_Football_Championship#Finals_listed_by_year

In one of the years Austin Stacks won it.

Kerry have done exceptional well despite the rise of Tipp football.

Plus in fairness to Kerry they have to rebulid following the break up the great team of the 00's -

and still managed to win an AI in 2014 and contest two finals 2015 and this year!

Is that over achievement a 'weak' Kerry team doing that?
I think it is and it is damn impressive.

It is interesting for me that the years Dublin dominated the leinster club football -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster_Senior_Club_Football_Championship#Finals_Listed_By_Year

It has coincided with an exceptional group of players at intercounty level 2012-2016

It is a clear indicator to me of a drop off in standards, as is the lack of success at minor and u21 in recent years.

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Crokes won the AI club 2016, they have also dominated the Munster club championship five in the last 8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wilki/Munster_Senior_Club_Football_Championship#Finals_listed_by_year

In one of the years Austin Stacks won it.

Kerry have done exceptional well despite the rise of Tipp football.

Plus in fairness to Kerry they have to rebulid following the break up the great team of the 00's -

and still managed to win an AI in 2014 and contest two finals 2015 and this year!

Is that over achievement a 'weak' Kerry team doing that?
I think it is and it is damn impressive.

It is interesting for me that the years Dublin dominated the leinster club football -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster_Senior_Club_Football_Championship#Finals_Listed_By_Year

It has coincided with an exceptional group of players at intercounty level 2012-2016

It is a clear indicator to me of a drop off in standards, as is the lack of success at minor and u21 in recent years.

I think you need to go back and look at the history books if you think that is Kerry massively overachieving at senior level. Its been a relatively weak decade for Kerry, especially compared to the 2000s.

They've done very well at minor. But they haven't won an AI at U20/U21 this decade and Cork have more than held their own against them at that grade, winning a number of Munster and AI titles.

Now I get that the Kerry lads have logistical issues at U20 that maybe the average Dublin lad wouldn't. Most of them would be based in college in Cork, Dublin or Limerick and it makes collective training difficult. A few have gone to Aussie rules. And others like Clifford aren't eligible for the U20s. If they were, they'd probably be cleaning up. But before the rules around eligibility, Kerry were still average enough at U21.

The hurlers have improved but still nowhere near Dublin's level.

The ladies team has also improved but not at the top table either.

So nope, there has been nowhere near the huge improvement in a traditionally strong GAA county like Kerry to match what Dublin has done in the last 10-15 years.

Dublin's rapid improvement across the board is completely unprecedented in the history of the GAA.

gormdubhgorm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Dublin are closer to winning a hurling all Ireland now then in 2013. Very cycle has peaks and throughs. 2013 was the peak for that team. The current squad hasn't peaked yet and I believe they'll make a few AI semis and leinster finals over the next 5 years.

They are not they have gone back-ways in the last 6 years.
They had to go in rebuild mode.
With all Dublin's 'advantages' surely there should not have been such a dip?

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I think you need to go back and look at the history books if you think that is Kerry massively overachieving for Kerry at senior level. Its been a relatively weak decade for Kerry, especially compared to the 2000s.

Exactly that is my point yet they were STILL in two AI finals back to back winning one and are now in another this year.
That is over-achievement in my book considering it is basically a whole new team.
They also got to a league final this year and beat the Dubs in 2017.

If a 'weak' Kerry team can overachieve (relative to thier squad and change over) like this imagine what a strong one would do?
By right Donegal/Mayo/Tyrone all should be ahead of Kerry - but yet here they are in another final!

Unless of course you are going to call the last group of Kerry players in the 00's exceptional - and call this group potentially exceptional?

That would lead back to my other point that this current crop of Dublin players are exceptional - the same amount of League and Championship doubles as Kerry in the 00's for example.
That is always my marker for key greatness League and Championship doubles - done over the season - overall panel - management etc.
This Kerry team have been in both league and championship finals this year.
Something is bubbling underneath.

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

At least it was honest. That is the long and short of it. Tyrone of the 00s were guilty of introducing what can only be described as planned, team-based cynicism to the game, in my opinion. But at least every team could do it if they so wished. What other team can get a government handout and 17 million extra, along with a de facto free stadium where all meaningful games must be played, on top of 10 times the average population?

As I said, at least they were honest. This 5 in a row will only represent how crooked the gaa has become and how incapable dublin were at competing when they only had most things in their favour, rather than everything. Try to wear it well lads, because it will be there forever.

Honest and guilty?

It was dire football of a low standard in the 2000s.

This Dublin team have raised the bar in terms of the standard of football.

gormdubhgorm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Hurling is currently more competitive than Gaelic Football and that’s likely to stay the situation on available evidence. It’s played by fewer counties but a much greater number of counties have a chance at winning the All Ireland. Three different winners in last three years, five different counties in three finals.

Dublin hurling was miles off fifteen years ago, getting knocked out by Westmeath. They were about Leitrim standards in football whereas Dublin footballers were obviously at a much higher level. When you’re starting that far down, it’s inevitably going to take longer to reach the top especially with a less popular sport. So funding has had a massive impact to raise the level of hurling in the county so quickly.

Saying any half decent plan would see fast improvement equivalent to what has happened over the last fifteen years is basically saying the people who were involved in Dublin hurling the previous forty years were complete morons.

I disagree Dublin have just been knocked out by Laois this year, they are overly reliant on Parnell Park - as usual...
To say hurling is more competitive than football is like saying rugby is more competitive than soccer.
There are much more teams in the football that can beat each other on any given day when you remove the cream of the crop from the eqaution.

In hurling teams do not even compete in the championship they complete in secondary competitions.
Surely it is obvious?
Hurling is only basically about 8 teams (being generous) and there is very little after that.
There is no depth to it.

And yes I would say there were complete eejits involved in Dublin GAA in previous years.
For example who was the bright spark that decided Dublin should not have an u21 football team?
How crazy is that?

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

Honest and guilty?

It was dire football of a low standard in the 2000s.

This Dublin team have raised the bar in terms of the standard of football.

You couldn't call Eoin Mulligan's goal against you dire to be fair. Or the performances of Kerry in the regular hammerings handed out to Dublin.

I think you are rewriting history. Because Dublin were not great in those years, football must have been dire, is essentially your point.

For the record, many of the greatest football games of all time were played in that decade, featuring some of the all time greats including players from Galway, Meath, Kerry, Armagh and Tyrone as well as one or two other counties. The standard was high and the competitiveness was light years ahead of what it is today. Its a decade fondly remembered by the average GAA fan, but clearly there's a degree of bitterness from one or two Dubs like yourself!

And when talking about standards, the standard of point taking from play has been very poor this decade. Even Dublin were abysmal in the first half against Mayo.

So you're talking nonsense re standards.

gormdubhgorm

blanch152 wrote: »

Honest and guilty?

It was dire football of a low standard in the 2000s.

This Dublin team have raised the bar in terms of the standard of football.

I think Dublin have raised the standard but the standard of the cream of the crop in the 2000's was very good.
Ok the style might mot have been easy on the eye - Ulster teams etc.
But that was the era where Cross were very strong they played good football at club level
Plus Mayo and Galway played good football as well as Kerry of course

Yeah Dublin raised the bar now but there was some nice bits in the 2000's

Leinster was all over the show at the time exciting games though.

ToBeFrank123

I don't really see how Dublin have raised the bar.

When they want to be Dublin are as negative as anyone, putting 12 or 13 behind the ball, playing a sweeper and so on.

They are also well able to handpass sideways ad nauseum, particularly in the last 10 minutes if they are leading.

And the can have complete meltdowns when it comes to point taking such as against Mayo in the first half. In fact even Dublin fans would concede Dublin have been absolute sh!te in a number of games against Mayo in the first half going back years. 2012, 2013, 2016 (game 1) and 2019 are some that spring to mind.

Granted Dublin were able to close out most of those games with a better bench when Mayo started to tire (2019 was over before that) but Dublin's standard can range from the ridiculous to the sublime in the same game.

So yeh, less of the revisionist stuff. This decade the standard has been very average. 13, 14, 15 men behind the ball, handpassing sideways, poor shot selection and execution. Give me a break!

[Deleted User]

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh, but it is the question. Posters are harking back to the good old days of exciting football and competitiveness before Dublin came along.........except it just isn’t true. Tyrone and Kerry dominated the last decade. The standard of football was dire, in defeat Mayo nearly scored more last Saturday than the aggregate of some of those games.

No it's not the question. Did you actually even read the post you just replied to?

The issue is that Dublin have unfair advantages over every other county. Whether they win the All Ireland every year or are knocked out after four games these would still need to he rectified.

Regardless, the standard of football wasn't worse- Tyrone were unattractive for sure, but there was more kickpassing and people actually took shots on from out the pitch rather than the 20 metre line. Was more competitive too as there was genuine uncertainty over who would win rather than a Dublin procession. If it was a procession on a level playing field that would he one thing but we all know it isn't level and that's the problem.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

You couldn't call Eoin Mulligan's goal against you dire to be fair. Or the performances of Kerry in the regular hammerings handed out to Dublin.

Mulligan's goal was steps by the way and a double hop?

And don't mention those startled earwigs I was in shock for weeks after it.

Yeah there was a good mix of teams in the 2000's Kerry, Galway, Tyrone, Mayo, Armagh.

When you think of it 5 into four would not go - then the backdoor proved Uster were top dogs - the dubs were just scrapping to sit at the same table.
At the time Dublin players were hyped up in hope and expectation

Wayne McCarthy was hyped up because he used to gather the footballs for Charlie Redmond in training....

The 2003 u21 AI was the start of something bubbling for Dublin Jim Gavin at the helm.
Much the same feel that Kerry have now around thier team now.

The 2002 u21 team was hammered by Galway by the way.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I don't really see how Dublin have raised the bar.

When they want to be Dublin are as negative as anyone, putting 12 or 13 behind the ball, player a sweeper and so on.

They are also well able to handpass sideways ad nauseum, particularly in the last 10 minutes if they are leading.

That proves adaptability though they can change to any tactic in the one game.
Have you asked yourself why new tactics needed to be found?

I will tell you it started with McGuinness bringing defensive football to a new level. Which brought Tyrone's style on another level.

Dublin then copped on not to bring the ball in the tackle which is/was food and drink for Tyrone and Donegal.
Patience was learnt.

Dublin do not take pot shots.

As a result last years AI final was the most complete victory I have ever seen - how many wides?

As for bringing the game to another level - maybe you have not seen Dublin live?
Have you watched thier movement at speed and control did you see the Mayo game?
Their off the ball movement as well as on the ball.

Plus not only that because Dublin press up so high the opposition keepers are lost they end up kicking the ball out of play.

Then of course there is Stephen Cluxton the fella who became the model for Keepers all over the GAA world - he is key to the raising of the gaelic football bar for Dublin.

ToBeFrank123

Look lads, if you think a decade that had Canavan, the O'Se's, O'Neill, Joyce, Donnellan, Meehan, O'Sullivan, Cooper, Moynihan, and countless other all time greats, was of a dire standard, then do us all a favour and stop posting on the GAA forum.

Its actually this decade's standard that has been dire in comparison. Tyrone, Armagh, Meath, Galway, Cork and even Kerry, some of the traditional powerhouses have been nowhere near their usual standard, allowing Dublin a relative free run at it.