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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

Any questions, please feel free to PM the mods.

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gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I think you need to go back and look at the history books if you think that is Kerry massively overachieving for Kerry at senior level. Its been a relatively weak decade for Kerry, especially compared to the 2000s.

Exactly that is my point yet they were STILL in two AI finals back to back winning one and are now in another this year.
That is over-achievement in my book considering it is basically a whole new team.
They also got to a league final this year and beat the Dubs in 2017.

If a 'weak' Kerry team can overachieve (relative to thier squad and change over) like this imagine what a strong one would do?
By right Donegal/Mayo/Tyrone all should be ahead of Kerry - but yet here they are in another final!

Unless of course you are going to call the last group of Kerry players in the 00's exceptional - and call this group potentially exceptional?

That would lead back to my other point that this current crop of Dublin players are exceptional - the same amount of League and Championship doubles as Kerry in the 00's for example.
That is always my marker for key greatness League and Championship doubles - done over the season - overall panel - management etc.
This Kerry team have been in both league and championship finals this year.
Something is bubbling underneath.

gormdubhgorm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Dublin are closer to winning a hurling all Ireland now then in 2013. Very cycle has peaks and throughs. 2013 was the peak for that team. The current squad hasn't peaked yet and I believe they'll make a few AI semis and leinster finals over the next 5 years.

They are not they have gone back-ways in the last 6 years.
They had to go in rebuild mode.
With all Dublin's 'advantages' surely there should not have been such a dip?

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Crokes won the AI club 2016, they have also dominated the Munster club championship five in the last 8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wilki/Munster_Senior_Club_Football_Championship#Finals_listed_by_year

In one of the years Austin Stacks won it.

Kerry have done exceptional well despite the rise of Tipp football.

Plus in fairness to Kerry they have to rebulid following the break up the great team of the 00's -

and still managed to win an AI in 2014 and contest two finals 2015 and this year!

Is that over achievement a 'weak' Kerry team doing that?
I think it is and it is damn impressive.

It is interesting for me that the years Dublin dominated the leinster club football -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster_Senior_Club_Football_Championship#Finals_Listed_By_Year

It has coincided with an exceptional group of players at intercounty level 2012-2016

It is a clear indicator to me of a drop off in standards, as is the lack of success at minor and u21 in recent years.

I think you need to go back and look at the history books if you think that is Kerry massively overachieving at senior level. Its been a relatively weak decade for Kerry, especially compared to the 2000s.

They've done very well at minor. But they haven't won an AI at U20/U21 this decade and Cork have more than held their own against them at that grade, winning a number of Munster and AI titles.

Now I get that the Kerry lads have logistical issues at U20 that maybe the average Dublin lad wouldn't. Most of them would be based in college in Cork, Dublin or Limerick and it makes collective training difficult. A few have gone to Aussie rules. And others like Clifford aren't eligible for the U20s. If they were, they'd probably be cleaning up. But before the rules around eligibility, Kerry were still average enough at U21.

The hurlers have improved but still nowhere near Dublin's level.

The ladies team has also improved but not at the top table either.

So nope, there has been nowhere near the huge improvement in a traditionally strong GAA county like Kerry to match what Dublin has done in the last 10-15 years.

Dublin's rapid improvement across the board is completely unprecedented in the history of the GAA.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

That's one grade.

Where else are Kerry massively over-achieving in recent years?

Crokes won the AI club 2016, they have also dominated the Munster club championship five in the last 8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wilki/Munster_Senior_Club_Football_Championship#Finals_listed_by_year

In one of the years Austin Stacks won it.

Kerry have done exceptional well despite the rise of Tipp football.

Plus in fairness to Kerry they have to rebulid following the break up the great team of the 00's -

and still managed to win an AI in 2014 and contest two finals 2015 and this year!

Is that over achievement a 'weak' Kerry team doing that?
I think it is and it is damn impressive.

It is interesting for me that the years Dublin dominated the leinster club football -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster_Senior_Club_Football_Championship#Finals_Listed_By_Year

It has coincided with an exceptional group of players at intercounty level 2012-2016

It is a clear indicator to me of a drop off in standards, as is the lack of success at minor and u21 in recent years.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh, but it is the question. Posters are harking back to the good old days of exciting football and competitiveness before Dublin came along.........except it just isn’t true. Tyrone and Kerry dominated the last decade. The standard of football was dire, in defeat Mayo nearly scored more last Saturday than the aggregate of some of those games.

At least it was honest. That is the long and short of it. Tyrone of the 00s were guilty of introducing what can only be described as planned, team-based cynicism to the game, in my opinion. But at least every team could do it if they so wished. What other team can get a government handout and 17 million extra, along with a de facto free stadium where all meaningful games must be played, on top of 10 times the average population?

As I said, at least they were honest. This 5 in a row will only represent how crooked the gaa has become and how incapable dublin were at competing when they only had most things in their favour, rather than everything. Try to wear it well lads, because it will be there forever.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

I love it when somebody doubles down on their discredited point.

Obviously you do, that is all you seem to ever offer to any debate...

The farcical 'special group of players' point for one. You are right, they must be special - their average age is going down. Dublin have a team of Benjamin Buttons on their hands; amazing stuff.
Similarly your exclamations that a team having players from 2015-2019 - a full 4 seasons - is somehow proof that it is one special group of players at play. Most young players are only fully established after 4 seasons involvement these days, so to suggest that this is some indicator of something out of the ordinary is not only nonsensical, but also blantently disingenuous.

But no doubt, you will repeat it all again, doubling down ad naseum. Knock yourself out. It is only yourself you are fooling at the end of the day.

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

Such as five minor titles in a row? And a semi-final the year after?

Would that be systematic?

That's one grade.

Where else are Kerry massively over-achieving in recent years?

thesultan

The thing with hurling, they have yet to win an All Ireland in hurling at underage over the last few years . Now they lost three great underage players to football in Costello, Con and Ciaran.

Donadea Leo

Lots of interesting points here but I think arguing about blaming dublin or the gaa or other counties misses the route cause I believe. The facilities in dublin clubs are akin to county set ups, the big clubs are amazing, well run, community orientated clubs, training hundreds of children at a time and fair play to them, they are providing a crucial social support to their communities.
This is being actively encouraged by government, they can provide some funding, get the gaa to match it, and viola we can build 10 more housing estates and there s your recreational amenity sorted, nice a cheap and without the government having to take any responsibility for it. Its more than just players benifitting, kids summer camps, couch to 5 k meet ups, 21st birthday parties etc etc. The more participation in gaa in dublin, the less the government have to provide for it. The more they can focus on 20 square miles of infrastructure rather than the whole country.
This isn t possible down the country as the population, jobs, and crucially infrastructure doesn t exist to build big clubs and attract big business.
We absolutely need amenities for people in dublin and the gaa are doing an amazing job of facilitating a lot of this, and the players are benifitting from the increase in revenue, best of everything for the best of players and there is no indication this will change, but I believe it's at the detriment of our game nationwide. It may be worth it if government aren't willing to provide decent services for its citizens without relying on voluntary organisations. People are more important than our game, though it's a pity it seems to be either or.

ClanofLams

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Dublin started at such a low base any half decent plan would see fast improvement in hurling.

You still have no answer the question if you follow your (flawed) logic that progreesion should be faster in hurling and 15 years should be ample time to win at senior inter-county level at hurling. Very small hurling pool in Ireland of competitive counties.
When in fact the Dublin hurlers have regressed at intercounty level for the past 6 years!

It is a mjor flaw in your logic. I would believe your arguement if Dublin had success at intercounty level and even came close to landing liam.
But has not happened.
So your catch all 'financial doping' argument starts to look extremely silly indeed.

Hurling is currently more competitive than Gaelic Football and that’s likely to stay the situation on available evidence. It’s played by fewer counties but a much greater number of counties have a chance at winning the All Ireland. Three different winners in last three years, five different counties in three finals.

Dublin hurling was miles off fifteen years ago, getting knocked out by Westmeath. They were about Leitrim standards in football whereas Dublin footballers were obviously at a much higher level. When you’re starting that far down, it’s inevitably going to take longer to reach the top especially with a less popular sport. So funding has had a massive impact to raise the level of hurling in the county so quickly.

Saying any half decent plan would see fast improvement equivalent to what has happened over the last fifteen years is basically saying the people who were involved in Dublin hurling the previous forty years were complete morons.

RoyalCelt

Strumms wrote: »

Can you imagine the meltdown if in say six years or whatever Dublin actually in some way managed to win the Hurling, and the football ? In the same year ? Meltdownesque I think.

When Dublin do finally win the hurling they'll most likely win the football they year too. Yeah huge meltdowns will ensue but I'll be delighted for the hurlers. I'll obviously acknowledge it wouldn't have happened without the many millions in funding but I'll be glad for Dublin all the same. A name on Liam that hasn't been there for ages.

Recently Clare, galway and Limerick bridged huge gaps. I'm hoping waterford, cork. Dublin and Wexford will follow suit over the next decade. Its in the best interests for the sport.

It goes without saying I don't want Dublin to ever dominate the hurling. I don't want any one team to do it.

StupidLikeAFox

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well Tyrone managed to it - in an environment which is more difficult than the environment many other GAA counties have to contend with.

If Tyrone can do it surely Meath-Galway-Cork-Kildare have little excuse?

Dublin have got (and are still getting) special treatment way above what other counties can hope to receive and your response is to ask why other counties can't replicate Tyrone? What's the logic there?

You are right btw, Tyrone and other counties don't have the luxury of relying on the handouts and help ups that dublin have enjoyed over the past number of years. But sure as long as Dublin is winning all around them who cares about the rest right?

When we had a competitive championship with an average Dublin team it was a crisis - we needed an action plan at the highest levels, bucket loads of money and professional structures put in place to sort that out. Now Dublin are dominating, attendances are dropping and there is zero competition but the solution is to take a long hard look at yourself, get your own house in order, nothing to see here.

Strumms

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Dublin are closer to winning a hurling all Ireland now then in 2013. Very cycle has peaks and throughs. 2013 was the peak for that team. The current squad hasn't peaked yet and I believe they'll make a few AI semis and leinster finals over the next 5 years.

Can you imagine the meltdown if in say six years or whatever Dublin actually in some way managed to win the Hurling, and the football ? In the same year ? Meltdownesque I think.

RoyalCelt

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh, but it is the question. Posters are harking back to the good old days of exciting football and competitiveness before Dublin came along.........except it just isn’t true. Tyrone and Kerry dominated the last decade. The standard of football was dire, in defeat Mayo nearly scored more last Saturday than the aggregate of some of those games.

I don't think the standard was dire. The teams actually kicked the ball back then. None of this backwards for half the match craic. Modern day GAA is more like basketball then football.

If Dublin came up against a team as good as themselves who set up the same the match would be a brutal bore fest. Dublin look good after their superior fitness and conditioning has worn out the opposition and they stroll through them.

RoyalCelt

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Don't mind ladies football I doubt you even follow it again that is tiny pool of competition
Your theory is gone when you see the regression in Dublin hurling since 2013 - surely more money would be thrown at it,

Underage success in football is largely down to one spectacular group of players.

For example my brother used to play for a basketball team - from u12 to adult they were exceptional group.

Dublin are closer to winning a hurling all Ireland now then in 2013. Very cycle has peaks and throughs. 2013 was the peak for that team. The current squad hasn't peaked yet and I believe they'll make a few AI semis and leinster finals over the next 5 years.

blanch152

gaffer91 wrote: »

This thread seems to be veering a little off topic again- the question isn't whether things were more or less competitive 15 years ago than today. The outcome is actually not the ultimate issue. If Dublin maintained their funding/ population and home pitch advantages for every game, but only finished the season in the qualifiers every year, these unfair leg- ups would still need to be rectified.

Oh, but it is the question. Posters are harking back to the good old days of exciting football and competitiveness before Dublin came along.........except it just isn’t true. Tyrone and Kerry dominated the last decade. The standard of football was dire, in defeat Mayo nearly scored more last Saturday than the aggregate of some of those games.

ciarang85

blanch152 wrote: »

Such as five minor titles in a row? And a semi-final the year after?

Would that be systematic?

It only applies to Dublin though...

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

One exceptional group, no issue there. Multiple exceptional groups across different grades, one after the other. That's definitely systematic.

Such as five minor titles in a row? And a semi-final the year after?

Would that be systematic?

gormdubhgorm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Meath are the 8th most populated county in the country and we are currently ranked 8th in the country. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

We don't have your luxuries and if we had and you had our situation we'd be beating you to a pulp annually.

In fairness if Meath had more money they would be putting more crisps back into the bag of Tayto's - full of air these days!

gormdubhgorm

gaffer91 wrote: »

That's it, you've convinced me with this irrefutable piece of evidence.

I retract everything I've said about Dublin GAA. I now believe this is golden generation (singular) of players who are aging terribly, haven't been helped one bit by all the millions and millions of euro they've received and haven't been put in an advantaged position by their population or home advantage either. Sure don't Dublin have the best volunteers in the country and it's only 15 men against 15 at the end of the day, all the money in the world couldn't kick the ball over the bar, it's up to other counties to step up.

If your brother played on a good u12 basketball team how could this not be true. People were probably calling for your brother's team to be split as well were they? Load of begrudgers, no-one said anything about Kilkenny.

The point I am making it was the same core of lads as you well know despite the scarcasm.
He was more the EOG making up the numbers. But they all did go on to have a great team, when they went to the same secondary school.
They actually thought they were mascots they were so much smaller than the rest in thier early teens in the Mosney Community games.
You would not have been able to split them too fast!

My point is it an exceptional group of Dubs at the moment. As another poster very eruditely put it the finances were the catalyst not the whole reason.
The manager has to know his stuff and the players have to be good.

It is not like soccer where you can buy players, and in soccer itself there are plenty of examples of teams throwing money at academies and few if any players make it.
Just stand back and think of the sheer quality of these Dublin lads I never saw the like of it until maybe Clifford for Kerry.

I say fair play to all concerned and I just hope I get a ticket for September.

[Deleted User]

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

.

For example my brother used to play for a basketball team - from u12 to adult they were exceptional group.

That's it, you've convinced me with this irrefutable piece of evidence.

I retract everything I've said about Dublin GAA. I now believe this is golden generation (singular) of players who are aging terribly, haven't been helped one bit by all the millions and millions of euro they've received and haven't been put in an advantaged position by their population or home advantage either. Sure don't Dublin have the best volunteers in the country and it's only 15 men against 15 at the end of the day, all the money in the world couldn't kick the ball over the bar, it's up to other counties to step up.

If your brother played on a good u12 basketball team how could this not be true. People were probably calling for your brother's team to be split as well were they? Load of begrudgers, no-one said anything about Kilkenny.

Hammer Archer

Gachla wrote: »

Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument.

Either engage in the debate or your gone for good!

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

One exceptional group, no issue there. Multiple exceptional groups across different grades, one after the other. That's definitely systematic.

Is is not a demonstration of a cohesive plan and structure?
It did not lift all grades and all codes.

Hurling-Camogie etc

Plus the fact that Dublin had regressed to such an extent improvment was more than likely.

Plus I can only speak on hurling and football in the mens.
I do not see these Multiple exceptional groups - the only exceptional group I saw in football was the 2010/2011/2012 vintage which mixed minor u21 who then made the senior team of 2013.There is overlap with Costello-Killkenny in the hurling for example.
Con is the only fella who really made it from the u21 2017 team - basquel in and out.

I still view it a bright blue generation.
I believe they were inspired by the 2011 win very dramatic.

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Don't mind ladies football I doubt you even follow it again that is tiny pool of competition
Your theory is gone when you see the regression in Dublin hurling since 2013 - surely more money would be thrown at it,

Underage success in football is largely down to one spectacular group of players.

For example my brother used to play for a basketball team - from u12 to adult they were exceptional group.

One exceptional group, no issue there. Multiple exceptional groups across different grades, one after the other. That's definitely systematic.

odyssey06

Gachla wrote: »

There's the white flag being raised! You cannot dispute any of the fatcs I have presented. 103+ titles and testimony from actual employees of Dublin GAA. You'll just have to accept the reality. Dublin bought success, the accusation of financial doping has been proved behond reasonable doubt.

Which book on debating tactics do you get the "declare white flag being raised" tactic from? Of course you are very capable of proving your own ideas to your own satisfaction, as if there was ever any doubt what conclusion you would draw.

ToBeFrank123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You would just have to amalgamate based on political boundries - population etc.
So if Kerry win in the next few years what will you be saying?

Also you will also note Dublin did not win the last two league titles.
Plus counties around Ireland seem to love when the Dubs are on tour.
I did not hear anyone cursing having to play them.

You have to admit your own county made a joke of itself 13 years in div 2 one of the most populous counties in the country.
Near Dublin for work no excuses.
They were not even second or third in leinster for years!

If Bertie hadn't rescued Dublin its entirely possible they would also have spent years in div2. Great advantage to have a benefactor like that who could throw millions of other people's money at the problem.

gormdubhgorm

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

If every other county somehow managed to pull off what Tyrone have done it still doesn't take away from the vast special treatment the dubs have got and continue to get compared to other counties.

Well Tyrone managed to it - in an environment which is more difficult than the environment many other GAA counties have to contend with.

If Tyrone can do it surely Meath-Galway-Cork-Kildare have little excuse?

Gachla

odyssey06 wrote: »

It's not whataboutery. Whataboutery is about drawing false moral equivalences.

You are the one proposing a general theory of financial doping, and its 'proven' effects in GAA. It's not whataboutery to point out occurrences that do not fit your theory, or directly contradict your theory. There are no accusation of hypocrisy, just highlighting the gaping holes in your argument.

Dublin's titles went from 29 in the 18 years pre funding to 103+ post funding. GDO's who've worked for Dublin GAA for 2 decades have admitted that the professional coaches have made a huge difference in standards in Dublin GAA. This is the evidence.
So as I said: Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument. The evidence presented has in no way been challenged.

gormdubhgorm

Gachla wrote: »

Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument.

It is whataboutery when it does not suit you I notice.
Simple questions with no answers from you that is your MO.

It sums up the flaws your argument you are stuck for words - gobsmacked.

I will leave it anyway have a read about Parnell's and think where they went wrong.

Money does not buy success on its own.
But I suspect you are aware of that, but are choosing to have fun.
I will not list all the other factors you know them, but deny they exist.
So it is pointless to continue the discussion any further.

odyssey06

Gachla wrote: »

Whataboutery:
Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument.

It's not whataboutery. Whataboutery is about drawing false moral equivalences.

You are the one proposing a general theory of financial doping, and its 'proven' effects in GAA. It's not whataboutery to point out occurrences that do not fit your theory, or directly contradict your theory. There are no accusation of hypocrisy, just highlighting the gaping holes in your argument.