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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

Any questions, please feel free to PM the mods.

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RoyalCelt

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Right and by 2010 I clearly meant the Leinster final, or did you forget about that one?

Care to remind us of the officiating that day?

It was absolutely shocking. Meath got rode by the referee all day before the ref somewhat evened it up by the end. But people conveniently ignore that.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

If Dublin were divided, it would have to happen gradually from underage. And even then I don't think it would be practical.

jimmycrackcorm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Brazil has multiples of the population of other soccer powers. Germany and Russia have multiples in UEFA.

You dont hear this kind of stuff from the other soccer nations. If Belgium, Croatia, Holland, England, Portugal, Uruguay, Chile or Argentina came out with this stuff theyd be a global laughing stock and rightly so.

Brazil Vs Germany?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Brazil isn't getting a daft amount of funding from FIFA.

Wtf ?

Dublin, just got professional about it. Players are fighting for their place. Their second team would whack any county out of it. It's about time someone raised the bar. It's a good thing really because now every county can see what can be done with fitness and a good routine. Having a bigger pick of players and money dont come into it but sheer training and the ''want'' does. Stephen Cluxton teaches my son and he says he instills a great hunger for improvement without being a teacher (bollix). The leaving cert results he got from them all yesterday says it all. 65% A. I rest my case.

beggars_bush

Wtf ? wrote: »

Dublin, just got professional about it. Players are fighting for their place. Their second team would whack any county out of it. It's about time someone raised the bar. It's a good thing really because now every county can see what can be done with fitness and a good routine. Having a bigger pick of players and money dont come into it but sheer training and the ''want'' does. Stephen Cluxton teaches my son and he says he instills a great hunger for improvement without being a teacher (bollix). The leaving cert results he got from them all yesterday says it all. 65% A. I rest my case.

Those silly teachers outside Dublin not relating well with their students. For shame!

It's be nice if other counties were financially supported in the same way Dublin are for game development.
It might actually balance the huge population and facilities advantage that the capital already enjoys

bennyl10

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Cork has a larger playing population than Dublin. Would you split them in 5 or 6?

Kilkenny and Kerry are far more successful. How many times should we split them?

As corrk has a larger playing Pop, and GAA has been ‘saved’ in Dublin surely they should now receive more money?

As should the remainder do the country to put the Game back on a level playing field

Hammer Archer

tikkahunter wrote: »

From working with lads that are involved with their own home teams outside I do know for a fact that the county boards let them down with structure and a dedicated plan to all stick to . As I have said in a previous post that lads around the country would have to give up extra time for travel to get to the clubs for training, matches etc. but all are working hard but pulling in different directions thinking that their way is the best , listen there are plenty of things I’m asked to do that I don’t necessarily agree with but I just roll with the instructions.

Fair enough, I misinterpreted your post and thought you were saying that it was simply that Dubliners were volunteering in clubs more (which has been intimated by others).
However, these structures and plans you speak would generally need funding in order to be put in place. They generally couldn't be done by volunteers.
As has been already said, detailed, strategic plans not dissimilar from Dublins have been drawn up in other counties and funding has been requested only for these requests to be denied. The funding disparity is gradually being rectified but Dublin have had a 10 - 15 year head start on other counties. It also doesn't help that they've become almost totally self sufficient with sponsorship which in turn means they do not have to put any real effort into fundraising, unlike other counties.

odyssey06

ClanofLams wrote: »

It’s not a national league to be fair. American sports might be a good comparison in that they are localised and mainly played in America although baseball and basketball in particular are popular in some other countries. They use a draft system and salary caps to try to keep leagues fair.
I’m not advocating splitting Dublin but certainly the funding situation needs to addressed as a matter of priority. I’m not sure how the GAA are going to do that, it’s presumably difficult to reduce Dublin’s funding as it would probably involve redundancies etc. The alternative is to come up with x million to invest in other counties.

I don't think American sports are a good comparison, except perhaps in how their construct their fixtures.
College level games focus on football 'rivalries', which allows teams to play their local \ historic rivals, and a selection of peer teams. The teams then advance to peer playoffs based on those results. It would be one way to get around the provinces.
NFL divisional conferences similarly allow teams to play home and away against teams from their region, and a set number of matches against teams country wide. It could be a good model to retain some provincial element whilst also spreading games around.

The pro sports franchise system is a good model for trying to keep parity between the teams but it is a fully professional industry, and players can transfer between contracts, there is free agency. American football has a salary cap, but baseball does not. Basketball has a 'soft' cap which is more like UEFA financial fair play rules.
I don't see how their model could work in the GAA as presently constructed, unless GAA went down a similar route the rugby unions took when professionalism came in.

I compared it with international football, as this is a sport played by territorial based teams; teams cannot simply go out and buy players from other countries, or lure them away with higher wages. Players are allocated not by draft but by birth \ residency. You have to work with the kids in your territory and can't simply go out and buy the best kids from elsewhere.

It does seem reasonable that all countries should get a certain amount of funding, but also from time to time that the GAA takes on initiatives to widen participation in specific regions.
I don't think any Dublin fans would have an issue if the GAA said our focus is now moving to the Commuter Belt, or the Midwest, or the Border counties, or Munster cities given rugby's popularity there. But the funding re-allocation shouldn't go from 100% to 0%, maybe gradually wound down 8-15% per year.

There is also the question of whether funding should be per capita or per player. Probably the funding for encouraging participation in GAA should be per capita, and funding for coaching should be per player and it should be demarcated as such.

Strumms

Wtf ? wrote: »

Stephen Cluxton teaches my son and he says he instills a great hunger for improvement without being a teacher (bollix). The leaving cert results he got from them all yesterday says it all. 65% A. I rest my case.

How the fûck does Stephen Cluxton manage that with with his full time GAA career ? he must be even more of a superhuman then many of us envisioned :eek:

Just goes to show you what can be achieved with focus, hard work and dedication to your trade...if Stephen was busy taking his eye off the ball, looking through the keyhole at his colleagues and wondering why Ms.
Lynch ALWAYS has a cleaner blackboard, better behaved students, cleaner and nicer classroom etc... no he just gets on himself and achieves... 65%A. That’s some going, a great team effort by Stephen and all his students...

bucketybuck

Surely he just had a once in a lifetime group of students come through?

ToBeFrank123

So everyone in Dublin is a hard working self improvement guru .

Everyone outside of Dublin is a lazy good for nothing.

This is what I am reading on this thread.

And Dubs wonder why they have an image problem!

Dublin football is where it is because of the massive number of GDOs and massive funding it received from the GAA.

Its not even a doubt at this stage.

But so be it. The GAA have shot themselves in the foot with the funding they handed to Dublin along with the numerous other advantages. They have completely and probably for all time undermined confidence and credibility in the AI. 5 years from now, the competition will be treated for the joke it is and supporters will long have abandoned it. At that stage the GAA might wake up to what they did, but by that stage it will be far far too late to rescue the situation.

blanch152

odyssey06 wrote: »

I don't think American sports are a good comparison, except perhaps in how their construct their fixtures.
College level games focus on football 'rivalries', which allows teams to play their local \ historic rivals, and a selection of peer teams. The teams then advance to peer playoffs based on those results. It would be one way to get around the provinces.
NFL divisional conferences similarly allow teams to play home and away against teams from their region, and a set number of matches against teams country wide. It could be a good model to retain some provincial element whilst also spreading games around.

The pro sports franchise system is a good model for trying to keep parity between the teams but it is a fully professional industry, and players can transfer between contracts, there is free agency. American football has a salary cap, but baseball does not. Basketball has a 'soft' cap which is more like UEFA financial fair play rules.
I don't see how their model could work in the GAA as presently constructed, unless GAA went down a similar route the rugby unions took when professionalism came in.

I compared it with international football, as this is a sport played by territorial based teams; teams cannot simply go out and buy players from other countries, or lure them away with higher wages. Players are allocated not by draft but by birth \ residency. You have to work with the kids in your territory and can't simply go out and buy the best kids from elsewhere.

It does seem reasonable that all countries should get a certain amount of funding, but also from time to time that the GAA takes on initiatives to widen participation in specific regions.
I don't think any Dublin fans would have an issue if the GAA said our focus is now moving to the Commuter Belt, or the Midwest, or the Border counties, or Munster cities given rugby's popularity there. But the funding re-allocation shouldn't go from 100% to 0%, maybe gradually wound down 8-15% per year.

There is also the question of whether funding should be per capita or per player. Probably the funding for encouraging participation in GAA should be per capita, and funding for coaching should be per player and it should be demarcated as such.

You need to be careful with the funding per player metric.

Many of the arguments put forward on these threads have used figures of funding per adult registered player for allocating game development funding for juveniles. This argument has been put forward to say Dublin has been over-funded. Reliable figures for the numbers of juveniles are not always available.

kilns

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

So everyone in Dublin is a hard working self improvement guru .

Everyone outside of Dublin is a lazy good for nothing.

This is what I am reading on this thread.

And Dubs wonder why they have an image problem!

Dublin football is where it is because of the massive number of GDOs and massive funding it received from the GAA.

Its not even a doubt at this stage.

But so be it. The GAA have shot themselves in the foot with the funding they handed to Dublin along with the numerous other advantages. They have completely and probably for all time undermined confidence and credibility in the AI. 5 years from now, the competition will be treated for the joke it is and supporters will long have abandoned it. At that stage the GAA might wake up to what they did, but by that stage it will be far far too late to rescue the situation.

It will never happen and is not viable but as an experiment I wonder if the exact same funding was sent to Mayo over the next 15 years what would happen, my guess is that they will not improve significantly

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

So everyone in Dublin is a hard working self improvement guru .

Everyone outside of Dublin is a lazy good for nothing.

This is what I am reading on this thread.

And Dubs wonder why they have an image problem!

Nobody has said any of that on this thread.

Empty vessels have come along and said that Dublin players don't have full-time jobs. When this is refuted, you come along and say that the Dubs are saying that "everyone outside of Dublin is a lazy good for nothing".

You haven't a clue about the Dublin GAA set-up from what the players work at to the number of juveniles in clubs to the work that the GDOs do in schools that involves thousands of non-GAA members to the excellent management of Jim Gavin of the senior team etc. Yet you set yourself up here as some sort of expert commentator on the advantages Dublin have, banging the same old pot of bitterness and jealousy all the time.

Dots1982

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

So everyone in Dublin is a hard working self improvement guru .

Everyone outside of Dublin is a lazy good for nothing.

This is what I am reading on this thread.

And Dubs wonder why they have an image problem!

Dublin football is where it is because of the massive number of GDOs and massive funding it received from the GAA.

Its not even a doubt at this stage.

But so be it. The GAA have shot themselves in the foot with the funding they handed to Dublin along with the numerous other advantages. They have completely and probably for all time undermined confidence and credibility in the AI. 5 years from now, the competition will be treated for the joke it is and supporters will long have abandoned it. At that stage the GAA might wake up to what they did, but by that stage it will be far far too late to rescue the situation.

So why bother vexing yourself arguing about it?

Hammer Archer

I would like to remind posters that if they don't have anything vaguely constructive to add to the topic at hand, then do not post! You're more than welcome to agree/disagree with people's posts in a mature manner, but mocking people's posts while adding nothing yourself is basically thread spoiling. This is your only warning.

Also, making accusations against people/groups without proof is not acceptable and will be carded.

This is a contentious topic for those on both sides of the debate but I'd like it the debate to have some semblance of maturity.
Please report posts you feel cross the line as this is a fast moving thread and mods cannot be expected to read every post. Do NOT mention on thread about reporting posts as this is backseat modding!

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

Nobody has said any of that on this thread.

Empty vessels have come along and said that Dublin players don't have full-time jobs. When this is refuted, you come along and say that the Dubs are saying that "everyone outside of Dublin is a lazy good for nothing".

You haven't a clue about the Dublin GAA set-up from what the players work at to the number of juveniles in clubs to the work that the GDOs do in schools that involves thousands of non-GAA members to the excellent management of Jim Gavin of the senior team etc. Yet you set yourself up here as some sort of expert commentator on the advantages Dublin have, banging the same old pot of bitterness and jealousy all the time.

Ah the old bitterness and jealousy ****e. Any time anyone talks about balancing the playing field they get this response.

The real bitterness I'm sensing is from Dubs when their "achievements" are questioned and how those achievements were attained.

So yeh lets drag this into the gutter with labeling each other bitter and jealous.

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

You need to be careful with the funding per player metric.

Many of the arguments put forward on these threads have used figures of funding per adult registered player for allocating game development funding for juveniles. This argument has been put forward to say Dublin has been over-funded. Reliable figures for the numbers of juveniles are not always available.

The number of kids in Dublin is relatively high. The number of adult registered players is relatively low compared to other counties.

The retention level after 15 years of huge games development funding is relatively poor in Dublin.

Why is this? You'd think Dublin after all the investment would be streets ahead of every other county with adult registered players.

And using the nonsense excuse that Dublin has to compete with other sports doesn't cut it. There are exactly the same sports in Galway, Limerick and Cork as Dublin.

kilns

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Ah the old bitterness and jealousy ****e. Any time anyone talks about balancing the playing field they get this response.

The real bitterness I'm sensing is from Dubs when their "achievements" are questioned and how those achievements were attained.

So yeh lets drag this into the gutter with labeling each other bitter and jealous.

Tobefrank123´s even willingness to recognise that these group of players are some of the most talented to play the game proves he has a blindspot in this debate.

He has zero clue of what goes on internally in Dublin and yet proclaims himself to be an expert, it is laughable and frankly there is no point engaging with him as he blinded by his own hatred. I am sure every Dublin supporter would concede yes they have a hugh population and geographical advantage and that funding has increased the numbers participation hugely which inevitably benefits the teams at the very top but his unwillingness to even concede on some points shows he is not worthy of even debating on this topic

LuckyLloyd

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Ah the old bitterness and jealousy ****e. Any time anyone talks about balancing the playing field they get this response.

The real bitterness I'm sensing is from Dubs when their "achievements" are questioned and how those achievements were attained.

So yeh lets drag this into the gutter with labeling each other bitter and jealous.

Are you denying that you don’t hold even a tiny bit of bitterness on this topic? If you admitted your bias and that you hate Dublin (of all counties) being on the cusp of 5 in a row it may help your argument.

ToBeFrank123

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Are you denying that you don’t hold even a tiny bit of bitterness on this topic? If you admitted your bias and that you hate Dublin (of all counties) being on the cusp of 5 in a row it may help your argument.

The thread is about the Dominance of Dublin GAA.

There's clearly an issue there which everyone is talking about.

Turning it into a "you're bitter" response is just not engaging with the thread subject at all.

You can do better than that as can anyone who throws out the childish "you're just bitter" jibe.

There is clearly a competitiveness issue in gaelic football. That's not my subjective opinion. Dubs and the GAA can put fingers in ears and bury their heads in the sand all they like, but the issue will remain.

Dots1982

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Are you denying that you don’t hold even a tiny bit of bitterness on this topic? If you admitted your bias and that you hate Dublin (of all counties) being on the cusp of 5 in a row it may help your argument.

It really wouldn’t help his argument.

BonnieSituation

Dots1982 wrote: »

It really wouldn’t help his argument.

He ignores every response to his crap and changes the subject. It's almost like he doesn't know what he's talking about and has a massive chip on his shoulder regarding Dublin.

And still I wait on responses from yesterday...

tick tock.

* checks post for mistyped words in case it offends FrankieBoy *

odyssey06

blanch152 wrote: »

You need to be careful with the funding per player metric.
Many of the arguments put forward on these threads have used figures of funding per adult registered player for allocating game development funding for juveniles. This argument has been put forward to say Dublin has been over-funded. Reliable figures for the numbers of juveniles are not always available.

Good point. I think funding should be assessed per capita, per juvenile, per adult for different purposes.

kilns

BonnieSituation wrote: »

He ignores every response to his crap and changes the subject. It's almost like he doesn't know what he's talking about and has a massive chip on his shoulder regarding Dublin.

And still I wait on responses from yesterday...

tick tock.

* checks post for mistyped words in case it offends FrankieBoy *

Maybe he is really actually the guy on Twitter who´s name we should not mention

ToBeFrank123

BonnieSituation wrote: »

He ignores every response to his crap and changes the subject. It's almost like he doesn't know what he's talking about and has a massive chip on his shoulder regarding Dublin.

And still I wait on responses from yesterday...

tick tock.

* checks post for mistyped words in case it offends FrankieBoy *

More immature jibes and insults. I gave you the benefit of the doubt a number of times but won't be any more.

Say hello to ignore.

salmocab

BonnieSituation wrote: »

He ignores every response to his crap and changes the subject. It's almost like he doesn't know what he's talking about and has a massive chip on his shoulder regarding Dublin.

And still I wait on responses from yesterday...

tick tock.

* checks post for mistyped words in case it offends FrankieBoy *

That’s it your on ignore now, making his world slightly more of an echo chamber.

Dots1982

It would really help Donald Trump’s arguments if he just came out and said he was racist.

I just don’t get the arguing with people with whom there isn’t any middle ground to be reached. Why waste the time.

We are in the endgame of the amateur inter county structure.

Without the funding Dublin were likely to dominate this decade. It’s just demographics mainly and a couple of other advantages and factors around economies of scale in the current quasi professional era.

The richest and most populated countries always win the most medals at the Olympics. This is the same except this is the USA competing in every Olympics in their own country against only countries with a tenth of their size in population

Dublin have a superb team that are breaking new ground in the bar of performance any team has ever reached before. Dubs should enjoy it but also show more humility.

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The number of kids in Dublin is relatively high. The number of adult registered players is relatively low compared to other counties.

The retention level after 15 years of huge games development funding is relatively poor in Dublin.

Why is this? You'd think Dublin after all the investment would be streets ahead of every other county with adult registered players.

And using the nonsense excuse that Dublin has to compete with other sports doesn't cut it. There are exactly the same sports in Galway, Limerick and Cork as Dublin.

The money was never about increasing the number of adult registered players.

The money was all about increasing juvenile participation with the twin aims of raising awareness of our national game and improving long-term health and fitness outcomes. It is succeeding very well in those objectives as seen by the huge number of kids in Dublin now playing the games. If you preferred, the government could have put money into promoting soccer and rugby in Dublin, but instead it chose our national games for this important initiative. This is not something to be taken lightly. For all your rage about money and Dublin, the real danger to gaelic games is that the government decide to put money into Niall Quinn's ideas for academies for young soccer players attached to LOI clubs. That would be catastrophic for the GAA. We have already seen the effect of the tax breaks for professional rugby players.

Going back to Dublin, the fact, which you so clearly acknowledge, that the investment in juvenile participation is not resulting in increased numbers of adult registered players only supports the argument that the money isn't aimed at the senior team and isn't the reason for the success of the Dublin team.

It is good that you are beginning to see that this isn't a simple case of money = success.