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100 gay men detained in 'concentration camps' in Chechnya — read first post

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  • #62
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    I just think it's wrong to holocaust up stories when the truth is enough
    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Let's not be taking away from something the Brits invented please. Concentration camps (pre?)date from the Boer Wars.
    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    100 people does not make a concentration camp

    OK why don't I just rush us through the history to spare us the back and forth;

    Now the modern term 'concentration camp' was indeed coined with the British actions in South Africa in mind - the idea in the Boer War was in order to deny the Boer's support from their civilian population, to concentrate their civilian populations in camps under guard. Unsurprisingly given British conduct in the rest of the war, the camps were horribly under supplied and terrible conditions persisted - it's estimated some 25% of their populations died.

    Now, that brings us up to the Nazis who also ran concentration camps, but this did not originally refer to what we now associate with concentration camps, namely gas chambers and mass murder. The earliest concentration camps were setup in Germany as a punishment place for political dissidents, run on similar lines to the British ones, only with malicious treatment and poor conditions done quite intentionally. Nonetheless these were places where one could at least hope to get released from eventually, up until 1939 and wartime.

    Roll on WW2 and ultimately the early 1940s when the tide is starting to turn against Germany and the question of a 'final solution' becomes more pressing. This is when we start to see what we would consider the real concentration camps; industrially run prison complexes seeking to conduct mass killings. This is where you get your gas chambers and the mass shipment of Jews (and other 'undesirables like gays) from across Europe, to be killed either instantly on arrival, or after being worked to death.

    Now it seems quite sad to have to make this point, but I'm seeing a lot of distinction from one end of the spectrum to the other, and I usually think its a cheap shot when people compare British actions in the Boer War with industrially operated murder camps in WW2. History lesson over.


  • #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Kinda puts Panty's whinging about getting the side-eyes as he minces along the street into perspective.
    I hope you never go around complaining about anything in this country padd, because almost everything that happens here is worse in Sudan.

    Jesus I've seen some daft thing written on AH in my time, but your statement is right up there.


  • #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,095 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Chechnya detains 100 gay men in first concentration camps since the Holocaust

    Is it really? Really? How very nice of our British website to adroitly overlook the hundreds of thousands of Kenyans put in concentration camps by, well, the "civilising" British government in the 1950s. The history of this great civilising British event which never seems to enter the historical knowledge of the average Empire-loving Brit is documented in Harvard's Caroline Elkins' Pulitzer Prize winning Britain's Gulag (Bernard Porter, 'How did they get away with it?')


    Indeed, if these 100 gay men are being held in a "concentration camp", can we expect the same British defenders of freedom will describe the 1,874 Irish nationalists imprisoned without trial (or anything else remotely connected with justice) between August 1971 and December 1975, in places like this to be described as being held in a 'concentration camp'? There, the native Irish, like the native Kenyans 20 years before, had the pleasure of being tortured as the result of a policy decision made at the highest level of the British government. Something which, felicitously, the Irish government is currently bringing back to the European Court of Human Rights in 2017 because - surprise surprise - it has been discovered that the British government lied to the original international investigation back in 1976. (The torture centre: Northern Ireland's 'hooded men')

    So, nah, I'm not going to trust any article which is as blissfully British in its prejudices/selective memory of history as this is. Oh, and Putin defending gay people? It's about as likely as whatever equally backward kleptocrat is in charge of Uganda.


  • #65
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,853 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Well its because of people like him that anything changed and Ireland isn't like Chechnya today

    Jesus wept.


  • #66
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Awful news altogether. Kadyrov has been running Chechnya like his own little fiefdom for years now. Having said that, there is no way that Putin isn't aware of what is happening, and if they can get away with it in Chechnya, then they will probably do the same in the rest of Russia.


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  • #67
    harry Bailey esq
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭harry Bailey esq


    I daresay gay bars would be fairly thin on the ground in chechnya.What better way for a hundred gay lads to openly congregate and engage in the the rough and tumble, promiscuous lifestyle that gay men enjoy. The place probably comes pre equipped with darkrooms and dungeons to boot. Some might say it's quite the pragmatic move by the chechen administration. Not me though, I think it's barbaric, and that whoever implemented it is a throwback from medieval times.I was just putting a different spin on the whole thing.


  • #68
    goose2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Kinda puts Panty's whinging about getting the side-eyes as he minces along the street into perspective.

    Fallacy of relative privation


  • #69
    buck65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭buck65


    Err what?


  • #70
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Just totally appalled by the report on Sky News today on the plight on gays in Chechnya. http://news.sky.com/story/chechnya-lgbt-community-risk-death-but-find-little-help-from-outside-10862242

    You get the feeling that there is an apathy to this issue that goes 'oh well, they do have a reason for torturing and murdering people, even if it is wrong'. I can't believe the lack of outrage from these revelations, or anyone's attempt to minimise the seriously of it all. It's like 'oh, we're so sick and tired hearing about the gays'. What an attitude.

    Edit: I wonder how much of all this is some kinds of anti-west, specifically anit-usa sentiment, that is inspiring these kinds of abhorrent attacks.


  • #71
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,160 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    I think it's more a sense of futility more than "just shut up about the gays!"-style antipathy - how does one stop these abuses in Chechnya? What things does Chechnya export which can be boycotted, and even if that were the case, would they even care that whom they see as "decadent westerners" are doing that?


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  • #72
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I think it's more a sense of futility more than "just shut up about the gays!"-style antipathy - how does one stop these abuses in Chechnya? What things does Chechnya export which can be boycotted, and even if that were the case, would they even care that whom they see as "decadent westerners" are doing that?

    Yes but as per my post it's the lack of outrage *I sence* that has me peeved rather than a lack of action. I agree, it's a very difficulty one to fix via sanctions or some other method. This is Nazi style atrocities where talking about here. I find it very difficulty to just shug my shoulders as say 'oh well , what can you do'.


  • #73
    b_mac2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭b_mac2


    learn_more wrote: »
    I find it very difficulty to just shug my shoulders as say 'oh well , what can you do'.

    Let's face it, that is all you are able to do unfortunately.


  • #74
    SterlingArcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,767 ✭✭✭SterlingArcher


    learn_more wrote: »
    *This is Nazi style *atrocities where talking about here.

    We're not where.


  • #75
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Kinda puts Panty's whinging about getting the side-eyes as he minces along the street into perspective.

    Correct.

    Another thing the West must remember is we can't expect these backward countries to conform to western standards overnight. It will take time. Now, I concede that isn't much good to those homosexuals.


  • #76
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Correct.

    Another thing the West must remember is we can't expect these backward countries to conform to western standards overnight. It will take time. Now, I concede that isn't much good to those homosexuals.

    It's not about conforming to *western* standards. It's about standards full stop.

    And that's a point I made earlier when I asked if this is part of some kind of anti-western agenda, which would make them ethically even worse if that was the case. That they would do this just to forward their anti-western agenda rather than they could actually really give a f*ck about gays. That's what it looks like to me.


  • #77
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    learn_more wrote: »
    It's not about conforming to *western* standards. It's about standards full stop.

    And that's a point I made earlier when I asked if this is part of some kind of anti-western agenda, which would make them ethically even worse if that was the case. That they would do this just to forward their anti-western agenda rather than they could actually really give a f*ck about gays. That's what it looks like to me.

    Yes, but we didn't have great standards say 100 years ago. And these folks are a few centuries behind us.


  • #78
    Calhoun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Are they really 100 years behind or is the religious perspective taking over in this case? Is this also why there is apathy for it because its not popular to tackle the religion involved.

    I do believe there is an element of anti-western group think going on also. They are very close with Russia, which doesnt have a decent record on human rights. It gives them a shield of sorts because no matter what they do Russia has them covered.


  • #79
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Are they really 100 years behind or is the religious perspective taking over in this case? Is this also why there is apathy for it because its not popular to tackle the religion involved.

    I do believe there is an element of anti-western group think going on also. They are very close with Russia, which doesnt have a decent record on human rights. It gives them a shield of sorts because no matter what they do Russia has them covered.

    Homosexuals could get castrated in civilised society as recently as 50 years ago, for no crime. If they did a crime, absolutely no problem.

    That's why I wouldn't be too harsh on them.


  • #80
    .........
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭.........


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Kinda puts Panty's whinging about getting the side-eyes as he minces along the street into perspective.

    off to a concentration camp with you . . . .


  • #81
    Calhoun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Homosexuals could get castrated in civilised society as recently as 50 years ago, for no crime. If they did a crime, absolutely no problem.

    That's why I wouldn't be too harsh on them.

    It doesn't excuse it by any means. I believe we have to look harshly on it, when did it become ok for the rights of any individual to be trampled on in such a manner?

    It wouldnt be so bad if it was their rights being infringed a little but as far as we know they are now advocating a policy of killing gay men.

    What's equally alarming is, a minor perceived slight anywhere in western society and its a tragedy but this is reported on in such a manner.


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  • #82
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Yes, but we didn't have great standards say 100 years ago. And these folks are a few centuries behind us.

    Yes and when and how did our standards change for the better. It wasn't innate, it was because of the influences of multicultural democratic counties like the USA and other western European countries.

    I don't think this issue is about them not being socially evolved as if it were just some chronological issue. Nazi German didn't come about because they weren't socially evolved. It's about a state that is rotten to the core and time is not just gonna fix it. Not in our lifetimes anyway.

    As horrible as the things that have been revealed in Ireland over the last 20 years I still can't compare any of that to concentration camps that exist to today in Chechnya. Beating ppl up on the streets and no one in the community intervenes. Or murdering people and the state not prosecuting them for it. I can't believe anyone would just shrug all this off by simply explaining it away as simple backwardness. Ireland was never that bad.


  • #83
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Homosexuals could get castrated in civilised society as recently as 50 years ago, for no crime. If they did a crime, absolutely no problem.

    That's why I wouldn't be too harsh on them.

    Are you for real. Look at the sky news report I linked to today and see masked young men beat up a guy on the city high street. These ppl are total thugs, acting out their macho fantasies in the knowledge they will get away with it. Don't be too harsh on them you say?


  • #84
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Well its because of people like him that anything changed and Ireland isn't like Chechnya today

    Ireland was like Chechnya before Panti Bliss?

    I knew we had a conflict, and I knew Panti is revered by some...but come on, he didn't end the conflict in NI...


  • #85
    .........
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭.........


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Well its because of people like him that anything changed and Ireland isn't like Chechnya today

    He should / will be President of Ireland.


  • #86
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    learn_more wrote: »
    Just totally appalled by the report on Sky News today on the plight on gays in Chechnya. http://news.sky.com/story/chechnya-lgbt-community-risk-death-but-find-little-help-from-outside-10862242

    You get the feeling that there is an apathy to this issue that goes 'oh well, they do have a reason for torturing and murdering people, even if it is wrong'. I can't believe the lack of outrage from these revelations, or anyone's attempt to minimise the seriously of it all. It's like 'oh, we're so sick and tired hearing about the gays'. What an attitude.

    Edit: I wonder how much of all this is some kinds of anti-west, specifically anit-usa sentiment, that is inspiring these kinds of abhorrent attacks.
    Well I don't think thats the case, that straight people just don't care. Im gay, Im 'outraged' by the situation, but Id say more saddened that this is happening in 2017 rather than outrage. Ive liked pages, shared things, what else are we supposed to do? I even stood at a protest outside the russian embassy (mostly because its beside my house ..) but yeh its a foreign country I don't even know anybody who's russian.

    Theres only so much we can do here in ireland other than try and use online support for the people suffering there . Im sure 99% percent of people in the western world, gay or straight, would choose for this to stop if they could but theres almost nothing we can do
    What do you suggest??


  • #87
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Ireland was like Chechnya before Panti Bliss?

    I knew we had a conflict, and I knew Panti is revered by some...but come on, he didn't end the conflict in NI...

    No, it wasnt like checnya before Panti, not directly before. But at some stage in Irish history it was like Chechnya, and it was through a combination of efforts from many people over a long period of time than improved the situation to its current standard


  • #88
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    learn_more wrote: »
    It's not about conforming to *western* standards. It's about standards full stop.

    And that's a point I made earlier when I asked if this is part of some kind of anti-western agenda, which would make them ethically even worse if that was the case. That they would do this just to forward their anti-western agenda rather than they could actually really give a f*ck about gays. That's what it looks like to me.

    Seems like its happened before..Gambia's president said in 2015 he will personally slit the throats of homosexuals in his country before adding that 'no white person can do anything about it'
    Seems as loaded with anti western prejudice as homophobia tbh


  • #89
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    ......... wrote: »
    He should / will be President of Ireland.

    Probably not.


  • #90
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Homosexuals could get castrated in civilised society as recently as 50 years ago, for no crime. If they did a crime, absolutely no problem.

    That's why I wouldn't be too harsh on them.

    Good to see your support for the gay people there. this is more than a news story you read over breakfast for them. Try to imagine what its like being hunted down because your secret gay life was betrayed by other lgbt people or being murdered by your own mother and father to regain their family honour


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  • #91
    neverever1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 864 ✭✭✭neverever1


    Do they only capture the gay men when there's proof that they're gay? I'm sure there's less flamboyant behaviour from the gays over there to avoid suspicion.


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