Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Please note that it is not permitted to have referral links posted in your signature. Keep these links contained in the appropriate forum. Thank you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055940817/signature-rules

Nissan XE vs SV and PCP or not PCP

Options
24567

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    steelboots
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭steelboots


    Thansk Mad_Lad,

    So when I look at the ESB charge point map there are 5 different types as follows:

    - CHAdeMo
    - ComboCCS
    - FastAC43
    - StandardType2
    - Hotel/Other

    Can you explain each of these and how quick can they charge the Leaf, sorry to be bombarding you !


  • Options
    #33
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    steelboots wrote: »
    Thansk Mad_Lad,

    So when I look at the ESB charge point map there are 5 different types as follows:

    - CHAdeMo
    - ComboCCS
    - FastAC43
    - StandardType2
    - Hotel/Other

    Can you explain each of these and how quick can they charge the Leaf, sorry to be bombarding you !

    first three are fast chargers supporting high power DC DC, AC respective methods specific to certain cars
    Type 2 is a upto 22Kw AC charge point, but Leafs cant access anything other then their charger size

    other is typical a low power type 2 or just a plug point , you need to look at the description often its a type 2 plug but a lower AC power in a Hotel

    ( remember the type 2 lead is the standard lead with the Leaf in the boot, that has a type 1 J1772 plug at one end and a type 2 menneskes plug at the other


    The key is that all the blue charger icons have at very least a CHAdeMo facility so the Leaf can use them


    all the greens one are typically type 2, you use the lead in the boot, this applies to most hotel EVSE too , the leaf can only draw upto a maximum of its charger rating from Type 2 outlets. ( assuming the type 2 outlet has the power in the first place)

    everything else needs a granny cable


  • Options
    #34
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    perhaps a better summary ( using nissans data )

    (a ) using the granny plug ( in lead EVSE) , 10 A draw - 12 hours for 24kw bat , 15 for 30kw ( to 100%)

    (b ) using the type 2 charging station with the 3.3 kw charger ( green icons ) 7 hours for 24 kw battery 9.5 hours for the 30kw battery ( to 100%)

    (b 2)using the type 2 charging station with the 6.6 kw charger 4 hours for the 24kw battery and 5.5 hours for the 30 kw battery (to 100%)

    (c) using DC chaedemo ( blue icons ) 30 mins for either battery , to 80 %


  • Options
    #35
    stesaurus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭stesaurus


    It's pretty obvious but still worth pointing out for new users. All of those times given are from going from near enough 0% which is very unlikely to be the real world case.
    You'll generally arrive to most chargers with a good bit remaining so knock a chunk of time from those figures.

    Best thing to do is try get a loaner for a few days and try out the various charging methods. You'll soon lose any anxiety.


  • Options
    #36
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    Some cost info. Using scrappage is a great way to get a good deposit but I'd be hesitant to put extra cash down to reduce monthly payments. Firstly you will pay roughly the same whether its up front or over three years. Secondly if you overload the deposit then the equity in the car after three years will still be say 4-6k. That is your next deposit. Adding 4 k cash won't change that so you'd need 4 k cash the next time as well to keep your monthly payment low.

    So an sv model with cold pack on PCP is 425eu per month. Sounds scary but taking into account fuel and tax and for me zero TV, phone, drink or smoke costs its pretty OK.

    Basically you should use metal for your deposit.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    That's good advice for low or zero rate PCp but at 8% it's not quite so good advice as you have to factor how much interest the higher cash deposit saves


  • Options
    #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's all really simple folks, add the total cost of the money over the 3 years,

    Add the cost of the deposit,

    Add the cost of the repayments per month

    Add the cost of the balloon at the end and this is the total cost to buy which includes interest.

    Now compare to whatever means of loan you can get V PCP on a Petrol/Diesel you will find that the fuel savings wipe out any benefit of even 0% interest on a diesel Golf for instance.

    My fuel savings over a 60 Mpg prius pay almost half the repayments on the car PM. + I get free work charging. Not including savings on motor tax or servicing.

    Check out the BMW and E-Golf PCP deals too but these cars are more expensive to begin with.


  • Options
    #39
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's all really simple folks, add the total cost of the money over the 3 years,

    Add the cost of the deposit,

    Add the cost of the repayments per month

    Add the cost of the balloon at the end and this is the total cost to buy which includes interest.

    Now compare to whatever means of loan you can get V PCP on a Petrol/Diesel you will find that the fuel savings wipe out any benefit of even 0% interest on a diesel Golf for instance.

    My fuel savings over a 60 Mpg prius pay almost half the repayments on the car PM. + I get free work charging. Not including savings on motor tax or servicing.

    Check out the BMW and E-Golf PCP deals too but these cars are more expensive to begin with.
    Yes indeed working out what the total is straight forward. , one key decision is balancing deposit amount against interest on higher monthlies


  • Options
    #40
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    Agreed that total costs should be factored in. The only thing I don't take into account is insurance as its a dark art.

    My take is that a larger deposit doesn't drive down the cost if credit in real terms. Adding say 2k in cash on top of your car won't save you 2 k over 3 years. Your total cost may only drop by roughly this amount but you had to hand over the money up front.

    Nissans interest rate is higher than most and that should be something they work on. Vw offer 0% which makes their cars very affordable. Although compared to electric only just so.


  • Options
    #41
    cros13
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    Lantus wrote: »
    The only thing I don't take into account is insurance as its a dark art.

    Leaf is insurance group 11 and with most insurers gets an additional 10-20% discount as EV drivers are statistically lower risk.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Personally PCP is working fine for me now because I can pay per month like all my other bills and I didn't have to touch funds in the bank for a car with the trade in of the prius.

    Bank loan or finance would have meant far higher monthly payments and at the time something stupid like 12 % interest through most of the usual forms of finance.

    At the end I have the option to pay the balloon and keep it or just hop into a new EV in 2018 with twice the range or a little more.


  • Options
    #43
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Lantus wrote: »
    Agreed that total costs should be factored in. The only thing I don't take into account is insurance as its a dark art.

    My take is that a larger deposit doesn't drive down the cost if credit in real terms. Adding say 2k in cash on top of your car won't save you 2 k over 3 years. Your total cost may only drop by roughly this amount but you had to hand over the money up front.

    Nissans interest rate is higher than most and that should be something they work on. Vw offer 0% which makes their cars very affordable. Although compared to electric only just so.

    Essentially you are paying 240 euros extra on every 1000 deposit you dont put down over the three years.

    Since net return rates are hovering around 2% after dirt. That's a 60 euro return on not handing over the deposit up front. Resulting in a net cost of 180.

    Hence its better value to pay a higher deposit up front ( assuming you have it ) then paying over time with interest.

    The situation is reversed for pcp around 3% or less and a no brainier for zero percent finance , there you would always pay the lowest deposit.


  • Options
    #44
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Personally PCP is working fine for me now because I can pay per month like all my other bills and I didn't have to touch funds in the bank....
    At the end I have the option to pay the balloon and keep it or just hop into a new EV in 2018 with twice the range or a little more.

    Just be aware that at current Nissan rates using the money in the bank , to lower the monthlies and hence interest and topping that bank money up from your monthly income saves you money.

    As for 2018. What happens if the 2018 leaf is delayed and your pcp expires.

    Secondly you may still have to find a new deposit if residuals don't hold up.

    " hopping into a new EV " may not be possible if there is a significant price rise for example or pcp ingest rate increases.

    Personally I don't think we'll see a new leaf till early 2019. The us /Japan tends to get first dibs , with Sunderland second.


  • Options
    #45
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Since I didn't go into PCP expecting more than the GFMV I'm not too bothered, either way I walk if I don't want to keep it.

    The prius was costing 240 PM at the time in fuel, so for 210 Pm excluding savings on motor tax, It's a cheap car to drive considering my repayments include interest + depreciation.

    The saving of 280 a year on the motor tax would pay for almost 20,000 Kms of driving on night rate electricity.


  • Options
    #46
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    Based on some Nissan quotes a scrappage only deal vs scrappage plus 2500eu will save 130 over 3 years which doesn't seem sensible. (3.60 a month)

    Yes the monthly is smaller but you had to invest a huge amount of cash, virtually the same over time. And if you want the same monthly payment after 3 years you'd need 4k equivalent to scrappage ( which hopefully will be in the equity) plus another 2500 cash.

    Anyway, question for leaf owners. How do you find battery perfoance in winter? And if you charge the car overnight and it completes and then you use connect to pre warm the car does it pull from the mains?

    Edit: I see two risks with leaf on PCP and in general. Firstly the battery costs are expensive judging by the new 30 kWh pack. This could see future models rise in price. Secondly if the gov pull the 5 k grant then that could badly affect prices. Presumably your gmv increases so it balances out but it could catch out a lot of people.

    The hope would be mass production costs would drive down prices over time to balance all this out. The next battery after the 30 kWh would be the one to tip the balance Imo.


  • Options
    #47
    robnet77
    Registered Users Posts: 460 ✭✭robnet77


    Lantus wrote: »
    Based on some Nissan quotes a scrappage only deal vs scrappage plus 2500eu will save 130 over 3 years which doesn't seem sensible. (3.60 a month)

    Can you please elaborate on this?

    If you put 2500eu on top of the scrappage deal, you should save more than 130eu in interest, considering the current APR at 7.9%. Even at 0% APR, you would save 69eu monthly.
    Did I get you wrong?
    Lantus wrote: »
    ...
    Edit: I see two risks with leaf on PCP and in general. Firstly the battery costs are expensive judging by the new 30 kWh pack. This could see future models rise in price. Secondly if the gov pull the 5 k grant then that could badly affect prices. Presumably your gmv increases so it balances out but it could catch out a lot of people.

    The hope would be mass production costs would drive down prices over time to balance all this out. The next battery after the 30 kWh would be the one to tip the balance Imo.

    In theory, both the government and car makers appear to be helping the EV market, therefore it's likely there will still be incentives of some form for the next few years, and car makers could find creative solutions like they did with battery hire, to drive costs down.
    They invest money into the EV technology, they will try to get it back, I hope.


  • Options
    #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Lantus wrote: »

    Anyway, question for leaf owners. How do you find battery perfoance in winter? And if you charge the car overnight and it completes and then you use connect to pre warm the car does it pull from the mains?

    Performance as in the ability to accelerate or reduced range ?

    IN cold weather the battery can still provide full power and regen, unless maybe it was -15-20 deg maybe.

    Yes during preheat it will pull power from the mains, when not preheating from the mains the car blows out hot air amazingly fast with the heat pump, the heat pump is advisable and is standard in the SV and SVE.
    Lantus wrote: »
    Edit: I see two risks with leaf on PCP and in general. Firstly the battery costs are expensive judging by the new 30 kWh pack. This could see future models rise in price. Secondly if the gov pull the 5 k grant then that could badly affect prices. Presumably your gmv increases so it balances out but it could catch out a lot of people.

    There's always risks, the E.U car makers are heavily lobbying legislators to allow for increased Nox emissions beyond today's limits which is a complete and utter disgrace if they get their way. Hopefully they don't.

    The value of 2nd hand diesels could plummet if car makers decide enough is enough and make alternatives.

    France is considering a ban on diesels in cities and the U.K also though this isn't the first time the U.K has said this.

    Our own Government could also decide to increase taxes on diesel, unlikely because they are not the least bit green.
    Lantus wrote: »
    The hope would be mass production costs would drive down prices over time to balance all this out. The next battery after the 30 kWh would be the one to tip the balance Imo.

    Nissan will most likely offer different battery sizes and people can choose the range that suits them best based on what they drive and what they can afford.

    I don't want to carry around a big heavy 300 mile battery because I know I will rarely need it though 200 miles would be the most I think I could ever need especially if I can fast charge which I hope gets faster.


  • Options
    #49
    samih
    Registered Users Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭samih


    I think the optimum battery size is 20 minutes stop every three hours of driving.


  • Options
    #50
    robnet77
    Registered Users Posts: 460 ✭✭robnet77


    samih wrote: »
    I think the optimum battery size is 20 minutes stop every three hours of driving.

    thing is, 20 minutes stop could become 60 if you need to wait two cars who are charging in front of you.
    With the current infrastructure, public chargers are a bit of hit or miss, from what I hear at least.


  • Options
    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    robnet77 wrote: »
    thing is, 20 minutes stop could become 60 if you need to wait two cars who are charging in front of you.
    With the current infrastructure, public chargers are a bit of hit or miss, from what I hear at least.

    The ESB will install multiple fast chargers on one site when necessary, but they need to know they will make money from it and currently EV sales are pathetic to say the least so they won't spend too much.

    Maybe it's a good thing though because the next Gen electrics will charge faster so hopefully the ESb will install 100Kw + chargers in the next 3-5 years.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    samih
    Registered Users Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭samih


    robnet77 wrote: »
    thing is, 20 minutes stop could become 60 if you need to wait two cars who are charging in front of you.
    With the current infrastructure, public chargers are a bit of hit or miss, from what I hear at least.

    My experience with rapid chargers has been quite good so far. But what I really meant is that once you can drive for approx. three hours solid without stopping you wouldn't really mind to stopping for a while to have a cup of coffee. So, imo, this would be definitely enough range for most people. The current Leaf does that in the city at rush hour easily but for high speed motorway driving you would need about 300..400 km of range for it to be sufficient for pretty much everybody.

    The 90 kWh Tesla Model S would be a sweet car if money was not object. Sound like the next model Leaf which will apparently have up to a 60 kWh battery would be close enough.


  • Options
    #53
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The ESB will install multiple fast chargers on one site when necessary, but they need to know they will make money from it and currently EV sales are pathetic to say the least so they won't spend too much.

    Maybe it's a good thing though because the next Gen electrics will charge faster so hopefully the ESb will install 100Kw + chargers in the next 3-5 years.

    A work colleague was telling me today that the ESB will be introducing a €16.99 per month charge plan from 2016. That will cover access to all standard and fast public charge points.


  • Options
    #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    A work colleague was telling me today that the ESB will be introducing a €16.99 per month charge plan from 2016. That will cover access to all standard and fast public charge points.

    That would be unfair to expect a low DC charger user like me or anyone else to pay a monthly charge for something they rarely use, I'd pay higher per KWh. Monthly charge ? I won't be using them if that's the case.

    Yes that rumour has been circulating for a while now.


  • Options
    #55
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    I had heard that the cost will be linked to your domestic account and charged on usage based on activation via the card. Seems much fairer.


  • Options
    #56
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    A work colleague was telling me today that the ESB will be introducing a €16.99 per month charge plan from 2016. That will cover access to all standard and fast public charge points.

    I don't like the sound of that, I only rarely need to use the public charging network. It would be a good deal for those who use it heavily alright, but it would only encourage people to hammer the public chargers in order to get their money's worth.

    It would probably be a lot easier to implement than per unit pricing so it wouldn't surprise me at all if that's the option the ESB end up going for.


  • Options
    #57
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Lantus wrote: »
    I had heard that the cost will be linked to your domestic account and charged on usage based on activation via the card. Seems much fairer.

    I doubt it , there would be people with no electricity account.

    I think the 16.99 a month is a good idea.


  • Options
    #58
    ancicsaor
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭ancicsaor


    I was told by a dealer today that:

    1. It will be €17 a month from January but that it probably will not apply to existing card holders.
    2. The free ESB domestic charging point installations will end in January.

    The dealer is partly motivated by a desire to move a 152 car as opposed to a 161 order so I'd take it with a pinch of salt but that's what I was told.


  • Options
    #59
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,543 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    ancicsaor wrote: »
    I was told by a dealer today that:

    1. It will be €17 a month from January but that it probably will not apply to existing card holders.
    2. The free ESB domestic charging point installations will end in January.

    The dealer is partly motivated by a desire to move a 152 car as opposed to a 161 order so I'd take it with a pinch of salt but that's what I was told.

    I'd be very surprised if the free charge point offer ended.

    Re 'charging for charging', what I've read (which is, at best, not finalised) is that there will be three 'tiers' or similar. A = no monthly fee, but a high unit rate. B = lowish monthly fee, and moderate unit rate. C = higher fee, with no unit charging. This is apparently for fast chargers only; standard ones remain free. For new owners from January, and existing ones from summer. Personally, I think it's too soon and could kilk the undoubted recent surge in EV sales stone dead. I haven't had much trouble accessing FCPs though; I could well think differently if I did.


  • Options
    #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Naas was a pain in the face for me, though the last month was not bad probably because I moaned at people coming out with shopping bags, yeah I get cranky after 12 hr shifts, so I like to be able to charge when I actually "need" to.

    Since I got the work charge point I haven't seen a fast charger ! Though I might pay the Carlow one a visit while I'm off the next week .


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    Dexter1979
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭Dexter1979


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    Re 'charging for charging', what I've read (which is, at best, not finalised) is that there will be three 'tiers' or similar. A = no monthly fee, but a high unit rate. B = lowish monthly fee, and moderate unit rate. C = higher fee, with no unit charging. This is apparently for fast chargers only; standard ones remain free. For new owners from January, and existing ones from summer. Personally, I think it's too soon and could kilk the undoubted recent surge in EV sales stone dead. I haven't had much trouble accessing FCPs though; I could well think differently if I did.

    Option I have heard is a monthly fee and per minute charge for the use of a FCP. SCPs to remain free for a while.

    I would not be happy if that is the only option but it will still work out way cheaper than an ICE.

    Bring on some competition in the charger provider world please!


Advertisement