Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Abortion Discussion

Options
13567…334

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Excuse my ignorance, but what then is the actual difference between the delivery of a 24 week old premature baby and an abortion at 24 weeks in Ireland (to be)?.

    Why do you continue to answer questions with questions?

    He asked
    why don't you actually state what you think is going to happen, and what you have a problem with?

    Why not answer that in plain English instead of yet again avoiding the question?


  • Options
    #63
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Excuse my ignorance, but what then is the actual difference between the delivery of a 24 week old premature baby and an abortion at 24 weeks in Ireland (to be)?.
    If the baby is viable? None. The reason for the delivery may change.

    Boardsie Enhancement Suite - a browser extension to make using Boards on desktop a better experience (includes full-width display, keyboard shortcuts, and dark mode). Now available through the extension stores

    Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/addon/boardsie-enhancement-suite/

    Chrome/Edge/Opera: https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/boardsie-enhancement-suit/bbgnmnfagihoohjkofdnofcfmkpdmmce



  • Options
    #64
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Excuse my ignorance, but what then is the actual difference between the delivery of a 24 week old premature baby and an abortion at 24 weeks in Ireland (to be)?.

    I actually can't be arsed explaining this again. Go and read my explanations on the other thread.


  • Options
    #65
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Excuse my ignorance, but what then is the actual difference between the delivery of a 24 week old premature baby and an abortion at 24 weeks in Ireland (to be)?.

    Nothing if the abortion is carried out through induced delivery.

    You seem to know very little about pregnancy, labour or abortion. I hope you can appreciate that it is not really the responsibility of people on this forum to educate you to the particulars before engage in the debate.

    Maybe read up on what abortion is, what the various methods of abortion are, which are similar to labour/delivery etc. You might have less questions after doing that and things might be clearer to you. At the moment you seem to have some very odd ideas about what an abortion actually is, how it relates to pregnancy and labour and what happens to the fetus involved.


  • Options
    #66
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    lazygal wrote: »
    I actually can't be arsed explaining this again. Go and read my explanations on the other thread.

    There's 9,881 posts for him to search through. It'd be a lot easier if you just quoted it again or linked to it. :)


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Not really.

    BB has used those scenarios as to why a woman might "choose" to have an abortion:eek:

    Clearly you are not following.

    I was using the scenarios to point out situations when the right to "choose" to end the life of your unborn child for selfish and/or frivolous reasons is morally questionable. Morally repugnant IMO.

    While these examples wouldn't be typical they are not so extraordinary so as to be discounted. Yet few attempted to give their opinions as I believe it would expose the lack of compassion for the unborn child.

    It was never a question of banning abortion per se but to acknowledge that these "choices" we all make have consequences and while we can support a person's right to "choose" it doesn't mean we have to dogmatically support every "choice" they make.


  • Options
    #68
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Jernal wrote: »
    There's 9,881 posts for him to search through. It'd be a lot easier if you just quoted it again or linked to it. :)

    He could narrow that down by searching by person


  • Options
    #69
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    old hippy wrote: »
    Some very outlandish and far fetched hypotheticals, to be sure :D

    I think the pro_choice side can come up with some hypotheticals of our own.

    Lets say for example, somehow a bunch of devil worshipping woodland critters had convinced a jewish boy to become host to the anti-christ and the only way to stop the apocolypse is for some orphan mountain lion cubs to learn how to perform abortions and remove the antichrist foetus just in time for Santa to slaughter all the satan worshipping critters with a shotgun and squash the anti-christ foetus with a sledge hammer.

    Under this scenario, would an abortion be acceptable?
    plot of south park's woodland critter christmas episode, one of the funniest episodes they've made -- hail satan!


  • Options
    #70
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Yet few attempted to give their opinions as I believe it would expose the lack of compassion for the unborn child.

    It is the other way around.

    If you have parents who are going to abort you at 7 months so they can go on holidays you are probably better off not being born.


  • Options
    #71
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Clearly you are not following.

    I was using the scenarios to point out situations when the right to "choose" to end the life of your unborn child for selfish and/or frivolous reasons is morally questionable. Morally repugnant IMO.

    While these examples wouldn't be typical they are not so extraordinary so as to be discounted. Yet few attempted to give their opinions as I believe it would expose the lack of compassion for the unborn child.

    It was never a question of banning abortion per se but to acknowledge that these "choices" we all make have consequences and while we can support a person's right to "choose" it doesn't mean we have to dogmatically support every "choice" they make.

    Would you agree it is morally repugnant to buy iPads and other expensive consumer goods for children under ten when there are other children starving to death therefore we should enact legislation which prohibits such extravagance and insist that money be used to sponsor a child whose life is in danger from hunger or do you think people have the right to choose how they spend their own money?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    bumper234 wrote: »
    He could narrow that down by searching by person

    Still unfair burden. It's not constructive to a discussion to just tell someone "look it up on google" "search for it yourself" etc.


  • Options
    #73
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    28064212 wrote: »
    If the baby is viable? None. The reason for the delivery may change.
    OK. Thanks again for your patience on this. I am still trying to get my head around it.

    So if what you are saying is correct then aborted Irish babies should have the same survival rates as premature babies of the same age? Which is a 50% chance in the UK. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/05/survival-rates-premature-babies-rise

    How is this effective? If every second abortion results in an unintentionally delivered premature baby?

    If I was suicidal because I was pregnant then I am definitely going to be suicidal if I know there is a child out there in the world who I tried to have eliminated and who quite possibly has a severe disability due to my "choice"

    Is there any evidence that far more brutal and effective methods of abortion won't be used as a regular procedure in Ireland than a C section or induced labour?


  • Options
    #74
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Would you agree it is morally repugnant to buy iPads and other expensive consumer goods for children under ten when there are other children starving to death therefore we should enact legislation which prohibits such extravagance and insist that money be used to sponsor a child whose life is in danger from hunger or do you think people have the right to choose how they spend their own money?
    It is morally repugnant. However, people are free to carry out morally repugnant actions (within reason).


  • Options
    #75
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Jernal wrote: »
    There's 9,881 posts for him to search through. It'd be a lot easier if you just quoted it again or linked to it. :)

    It would be a lot easier if he read it the first 10 times it was explained to him. The last few pages of the other thread is various people explaining it to him. Brown Bomber has given no indication that he has paid any attention so far, so why should lazygal go through the hassle of explaining it again?


  • Options
    #76
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Jernal wrote: »
    Still unfair burden. It's not constructive to a discussion to just tell someone "look it up on google" "search for it yourself" etc.

    Sorry but BB said that several times in the last thread as did eirranbear


  • Options
    #77
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    It is morally repugnant. However, people are free to carry out morally repugnant actions (within reason).

    So in some situations people have a choice as to whether they can do something other's may find morally repugnant but not in others?


  • Options
    #78
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    It is morally repugnant. However, people are free to carry out morally repugnant actions (within reason).

    Within your boundaries, you mean?

    Now that really is... repugnant.


  • Options
    #79
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    How is this effective? If every second abortion results in an unintentionally delivered premature baby?

    None of them are still in the mother's womb, so it seems that they are 100% effective.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    If I was suicidal because I was pregnant then I am definitely going to be suicidal if I know there is a child out there in the world who I tried to have eliminated and who quite possibly has a severe disability due to my "choice"

    So?
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Is there any evidence that far more brutal and effective methods of abortion won't be used as a regular procedure in Ireland than a C section or induced labour?

    You want evidence that something you just made up won't happen?


  • Options
    #80
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    OK. Thanks again for your patience on this. I am still trying to get my head around it.

    So if what you are saying is correct then aborted Irish babies should have the same survival rates as premature babies of the same age? Which is a 50% chance in the UK. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/05/survival-rates-premature-babies-rise

    How is this effective? If every second abortion results in an unintentionally delivered premature baby?
    Every second abortion past the point of viability. Which, as oldrnwisr has demonstrated, is a very rare occurrence. Throw in the requirement of suicidal intentions, and I very much doubt there'd be one in a year in Ireland.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    If I was suicidal because I was pregnant then I am definitely going to be suicidal if I know there is a child out there in the world who I tried to have eliminated and who quite possibly has a severe disability due to my "choice"
    Abortion has to be both requested by the mother, and determined as a suitable treatment by psychiatrists. It's not a case of a pregnant woman showing up and saying "I'm suicidal" automatically receiving an abortion, regardless of what the best treatment for her is
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Is there any evidence that far more brutal and effective methods of abortion won't be used as a regular procedure in Ireland than a C section or induced labour?
    It's your hypothesis, you are required to support it

    Boardsie Enhancement Suite - a browser extension to make using Boards on desktop a better experience (includes full-width display, keyboard shortcuts, and dark mode). Now available through the extension stores

    Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/addon/boardsie-enhancement-suite/

    Chrome/Edge/Opera: https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/boardsie-enhancement-suit/bbgnmnfagihoohjkofdnofcfmkpdmmce



  • Options
    #81
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    If I was suicidal because I was pregnant then I am definitely going to be suicidal if I know there is a child out there in the world who I tried to have eliminated and who quite possibly has a severe disability due to my "choice"

    You are neither a woman who is able to get pregnant, nor are you suicidal. Going by this paragraph alone, I don't think you have the faintest grasp of mental health issues to make statements about how suicidal pregnant women feel.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    It is morally repugnant. However, people are free to carry out morally repugnant actions (within reason).

    Are you wearing shoes that are more expensive than other shoes? How dare you do such a morally repugnant thing when there are shoeless people in the world. You repulse me.


  • Options
    #83
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    OK. Thanks again for your patience on this. I am still trying to get my head around it.

    So if what you are saying is correct then aborted Irish babies should have the same survival rates as premature babies of the same age? Which is a 50% chance in the UK. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/05/survival-rates-premature-babies-rise

    How is this effective? If every second abortion results in an unintentionally delivered premature baby?

    If I was suicidal because I was pregnant then I am definitely going to be suicidal if I know there is a child out there in the world who I tried to have eliminated and who quite possibly has a severe disability due to my "choice"

    Is there any evidence that far more brutal and effective methods of abortion won't be used as a regular procedure in Ireland than a C section or induced labour?

    OK, I'll give it a shot.

    First of all, as I posted in the previous thread approximately 91% of all abortions are performed (in the UK) in the first trimester. Approximately 1% of all abortions are performed over 20 weeks. Any abortions performed after 24 weeks (just 147 of them in 2010) were performed due to severe disabilities in the foetus. So you are dealing with a situation which is rarefied to the point of being completely unrepresentative and thus irrelevant to the debate at large.

    Secondly, what makes you think that, if pregnancy (i.e. the realisation of becoming pregnant) is the trigger for suicidality, that the woman would then wait for 16-20 weeks before suddenly seeking an abortion. It would make more sense that a woman who becomes suicidal due to being pregnant would seek an abortion much earlier, at a point when questions around viability, pain, technique become redundant or academic.

    Finally, let's say for example that a woman does suddenly become suicidal around 24 weeks due to her pregnancy. Medical science has advanced to the point that doctors can assess the viability of a foetus before selecting a procedure, making this talk about IDX and such largely irrelevant. But then other posters have already explained this to you.

    You seem determined at this point to focus on situations which are unrepresentative of abortions in general and scare stories publicised by lowbrow tabloids. You seem to be doing your best to introduce as many logical fallacies into your argument as possible including appeals to fear, emotion, biased sample and of course, ad hominem tu quoque.

    Are there any serious concerns you have with the legislation actually being tabled that maybe you'd like to discuss instead?


  • Options
    #84
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    So in some situations people have a choice as to whether they can do something other's may find morally repugnant but not in others?
    Yes as in a father on Christmas Eve may "choose" to take the money he had saved for his children's Christmas presents and gamble it away in the bookies. He may not "choose" to beat them on Christmas morning because they are upset.


  • Options
    #85
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    old hippy wrote: »
    Within your boundaries, you mean?

    Now that really is... repugnant.
    No. Within the law.


  • Options
    #86
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Are there any serious concerns you have with the legislation actually being tabled that maybe you'd like to discuss instead?

    The flawed point he is spectacularly not making is that he thinks we want to allow suicidal women to have abortions so that they kill the baby and no longer are suicidal by the existence of the child. Therefore the purpose of these new laws is to allow suicidal women to kill their foetuses in order to no longer be suicidal. If the foetus survives the procedure it must logically be killed because the whole point of all this is to kill the child, not simply remove it from the womb, so that it doesn't exist any more so the woman is no longer suicidal by its existence.

    That is a stupid deeply flawed view of this whole debate.

    But BY GOD this discussion would move much faster if he just stated that was his view of this legislation, rather than rather foolishly trying to get us to realize that this is the point of the legislation by asking all these rhetorical questions.

    Oh and btw BB that isn't the point of this legislation.


  • Options
    #87
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Jaysus, is that where he was heading? He couldn't have taken a more scenic route.


  • Options
    #88
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    28064212 wrote: »
    Every second abortion past the point of viability. Which, as oldrnwisr has demonstrated, is a very rare occurrence. Throw in the requirement of suicidal intentions, and I very much doubt there'd be one in a year in Ireland.
    That is an important distinction you've made.

    In the uk in 2011 close to 3,000 babies were terminated at 20 weeks or over. This is the same as number of people who died from the combined 9
    11 attacks.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/may/24/abortion-statistics-england-wales

    This is not an insignificant number.
    28064212 wrote: »
    Abortion has to be both requested by the mother, and determined as a suitable treatment by psychiatrists. It's not a case of a pregnant woman showing up and saying "I'm suicidal" automatically receiving an abortion, regardless of what the best treatment for her is
    Isn't it? What scientific tests take place to prove she is suicidal?
    28064212 wrote: »
    It's your hypothesis, you are required to support it
    Is there any reason to believe that the surgical methods of abortion that take place in all other "civilised" countries won't be used here?


  • Options
    #89
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    How is this effective? If every second abortion results in an unintentionally delivered premature baby?

    Just one more thing...

    I imagine, though someone can correct me on this, that should the situation arise that a woman who sought an abortion was in a position that the foetus was viable, that said delivered baby would be taken into state care (at least temporarily)?

    Now, let's have a quick look at the numbers of this shall we?

    In 2010, 4402 Irish women travelled to the UK for an abortion. Now if, instead of relying on this number we use the UK total less Ireland (approximately 185,000) and scale back for populations, we could estimate that in a UK style system in this country there would be approximately 12,350 abortions each year with approx. 98% of these being for mental health reasons. Now, as it stands, the number of Irish women currently seeking abortions at over 20 weeks (in 2010) is 109 or approx. 2%. Therefore, under a UK-style system in Ireland there would be approx. 250 abortions performed where viability is in play. If, by your estimate, that every second abortion results in an unintentional delivery, then that would mean 125 additional children being put into state care.

    Since there were 2287 care orders granted by courts in this country in 2011 alone, I can't see this being a problem for the HSE to be honest. So to answer your question, is it effective? Yes.


  • Options
    #90
    loveisdivine
    Registered Users Posts: 2,463 ✭✭✭loveisdivine


    Anybody else watching the live feed? Some very good points being made, specifically about why an obstetrician would be qualified to assess suicidal feelings.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0710/461615-live-abortion-legislation/


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Just one more thing...

    I imagine, though someone can correct me on this, that should the situation arise that a woman who sought an abortion was in a position that the foetus was viable, that said delivered baby would be taken into state care (at least temporarily)?

    Now, let's have a quick look at the numbers of this shall we?

    In 2010, 4402 Irish women travelled to the UK for an abortion. Now if, instead of relying on this number we use the UK total less Ireland (approximately 185,000) and scale back for populations, we could estimate that in a UK style system in this country there would be approximately 12,350 abortions each year with approx. 98% of these being for mental health reasons. Now, as it stands, the number of Irish women currently seeking abortions at over 20 weeks (in 2010) is 109 or approx. 2%. Therefore, under a UK-style system in Ireland there would be approx. 250 abortions performed where viability is in play. If, by your estimate, that every second abortion results in an unintentional delivery, then that would mean 125 additional children being put into state care.

    Since there were 2287 care orders granted by courts in this country in 2011 alone, I can't see this being a problem for the HSE to be honest. So to answer your question, is it effective? Yes.

    125 children with a high proportion having severe disabilities for the rest of their lives. Disabilities that in most if not all cases could have been avoided and these children could have been born healthily and lived full and healthy lives - education, career, marriage, kids etc.

    Can you not see the dilemma here?


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement