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Why does childcare cost so much in Ireland?

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    #92
    Ginny
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 13,425 ✭✭✭✭Ginny


    therealme wrote: »
    So lets take 3 (under 1's) @ €160 p/wk with 1 adult (€350 p/wk) - that's €480 less €350 = €130 profit (if there are 3 babies in that persons care). I would believe that outside Dublin not all creches are full.

    Out of that €130 comes rent, revenue, insurance, water and commercial rates, bank loan?, light, heat, electricity, food, bins, maintenance, extra staff for sick leave etc. phone, profit. They are the main expenses I imagine a creche faces - I seriously don't see how the small private creches make a profit (outside Dublin in particular) or afford to pay more than minimum wage.

    Not saying it's right but can see how they can't all be making profits.
    Under 1s are on average 60 euro a day so per week would be 300 or so each. under 1s are more expensive due to the 1:3 ratio. As for people saying use childminders, childminders are as expensive here too and you have no back up. We're lucky that my mum takes our baby 2 days a week to keep the costs down, but if we had a second she couldn't mange them so we would have 2 in crèche full time.


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    #93
    therealme
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭therealme


    Ginny wrote: »
    Under 1s are on average 60 euro a day so per week would be 300 or so each. under 1s are more expensive due to the 1:3 ratio. As for people saying use childminders, childminders are as expensive here too and you have no back up. We're lucky that my mum takes our baby 2 days a week to keep the costs down, but if we had a second she couldn't mange them so we would have 2 in crèche full time.

    I was reading about the average cost being €160 per week. I doubt any creche (outside Dublin) charges that. I have a friend in Cork who pays €750 per month for full time and another who pays €640 per month in Waterford for full time. They are both under 1s and get food.

    I have reached that stage where that's all friends with kids talk about


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    #94
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Thomas D wrote: »
    Ok, when your kids have all emigrated in 20 years time and you're ringing Joe Duffy complaining about it you can feel free to blame yourself for fostering a culture of tax evasion that leads to our boom/bust economic cycles.
    I don't listen to Joe Duffy. But as far as I know he has similarly sanctimonious style as you do so I will bow out of this discussion too.


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    #95
    Baby01032012
    Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭Baby01032012


    Thomas D wrote: »
    Ok, when your kids have all emigrated in 20 years time and you're ringing Joe Duffy complaining about it you can feel free to blame yourself for fostering a culture of tax evasion that leads to our boom/bust economic cycles.

    Such a cynical view...life must have dealt you a very poor hand...I pity you


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    #96
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    Baby01032012 wrote: »
    Such a cynical view...life must have dealt you a very poor hand...I pity you

    Cynicism is actually worth a lot of money.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=87735113


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    #97
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    Thomas D wrote: »
    Cynicism is actually worth a lot of money.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=87735113

    Are you boasting about your income?


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    #98
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    Are you boasting about your income?

    No, just replying to someone claiming I live a poor life.


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    #99
    Baby01032012
    Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭Baby01032012


    Thomas D wrote: »
    No, just replying to someone claiming I live a poor life.

    You misread my post and took wrong meaning of poor...oh dear

    Financially poor you may not be...why I or anyone would care what your wealth is..so at a loss as to why you posted that link

    The poor I meant related to your view of life..such a negative pessimistic view of people...and that to have such a poor spirit you must have been deprived ... But not of money


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    #100
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    Baby01032012 wrote: »
    You misread my post and took wrong meaning of poor...oh dear

    Financially poor you may not be...why I or anyone would care what your wealth is..so at a loss as to why you posted that link

    The poor I meant related to your view of life..such a negative pessimistic view of people...and that to have such a poor spirit you must have been deprived ... But not of money

    Doing super on that front as well (partly related to income) , thanks for your concern.


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    #101
    gg2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭gg2


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    A neighbour of mine did the old "childminding on the side" thing for preschoolers. Turns out she had no qualifications, no insurance and paid no tax. She was also caring for her elderly mother. She suddenly stopped doing it a couple of months ago, not sure why.
    Who in their right mind would send there kids to be cared for with someone like that.

    My mum left school at 14 to go to a family to mind their children, she was the second eldest of 11 children, it was the done thing at the time for families in her economic situation, only one of the elder children went to secondary school and that was on a scholarship.
    She minded children for most of her life, for many of those years whilst bringing up her own, she didn't pay tax and had no insurance. She had zero qualifications, in anything, never mind childcare. She taught children their first little songs, how to tie their laces, how to tell the time, helped them with their homework, cooked their dinner basically cared for them as she did her own. She gave it up in the early 90's and started working in a school as the work had just become too exhausting. She was sought after all through the years but only ever looked after 1 family at a time, and it was generally only ever one child.
    The children she looked after through the years still call to her and would be very close with her... You basically described my mum in your post and I just wanted to offer an opinion as to why people may want this woman to mind their children.

    I work in childcare myself. I put myself through quite basic (level 6) education and I am continually doing different courses. I adore my job. Its not the best paying and its so emotionally and physically exhausting but its worth every minute.


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    #102
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    What I cannot get is the difference between staff pay and money charged. I mean I get the insurance, electricity, etc all having to be paid, but it is vast difference between the two. My best friend works in childcare. €9.50 an hour before tax. 9.50 x 40 hours is 380. Not a lot considering the amount of kids she minds a week and the costs their parents are paying. It is keeping too many people from returning to work too. Childcare is more than my rent just for one of my kids!!!


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    #103
    bobmalooka
    Registered Users Posts: 1,521 ✭✭✭bobmalooka


    Thomas D wrote: »
    Ok, when your kids have all emigrated in 20 years time and you're ringing Joe Duffy complaining about it you can feel free to blame yourself for fostering a culture of tax evasion that leads to our boom/bust economic cycles.

    Does that include motor tax evasion?


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    #104
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    gg2 wrote: »
    My mum left school at 14 to go to a family to mind their children, she was the second eldest of 11 children, it was the done thing at the time for families in her economic situation, only one of the elder children went to secondary school and that was on a scholarship.
    She minded children for most of her life, for many of those years whilst bringing up her own, she didn't pay tax and had no insurance. She had zero qualifications, in anything, never mind childcare. She taught children their first little songs, how to tie their laces, how to tell the time, helped them with their homework, cooked their dinner basically cared for them as she did her own. She gave it up in the early 90's and started working in a school as the work had just become too exhausting. She was sought after all through the years but only ever looked after 1 family at a time, and it was generally only ever one child.
    The children she looked after through the years still call to her and would be very close with her... You basically described my mum in your post and I just wanted to offer an opinion as to why people may want this woman to mind their children.

    I work in childcare myself. I put myself through quite basic (level 6) education and I am continually doing different courses. I adore my job. Its not the best paying and its so emotionally and physically exhausting but its worth every minute.

    It is horses for courses.
    In the case I quoted the reasons I would not want to leave my child are the following.
    She was caring for her elderly parent in the same house. It is hard enough to care for a number of children but to add an elderly parent on top leads me to wonder if the kids get the attention they need.
    She was un insured which worries me should anything happen to one of the kids.
    She is not paying tax which I do not like.
    I would need to coincide my holidays with hers.
    If she got sick then I would need to take time off work.
    She has no qualifications, how would I know that my child was getting properly cared for and his development needs met etc.

    These are the reasons I would not use the woman for my childcare and why I prefer using a crèche. As I said, other parents feel different and so be it.


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    #105
    Bog Standard User
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭Bog Standard User


    easy fix... dont have children if you cant afford them


    i believe hedgehog2 knows a clinic where u can get a sneaky snip


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    #106
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,673 ✭✭✭✭josip


    The government has been happy to abdicate responsibility for childcare to the private sector in much the same way as it abdicated responsibility for primary and secondary education to the religous orders for decades.

    The light touch regulation by the HSE has already been shown to be inadequate by Prime Time, and the inability of the HSE to secure a single meaningful judgement in court against any creche owner for poor standards shows how ineffective the current system is.

    Some of the larger chains are quite happy to take a €1000 slap on the wrist for breaching regulations that saves many multiples of the fine amount.


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    #107
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Bog Standard User wrote: »
    easy fix... dont have children if you cant afford them


    i believe hedgehog2 knows a clinic where u can get a sneaky snip

    That's of little use after the fact.


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    #108
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Baffles me why parents expect others to mind their kids for very little money while they go back to work to earn more money.

    Or parents who expect the tax payers/government to sort out child care. You're getting 100 odd euro per month per child so why don't you just use that towards child care. Not enough? Not anyone else's problem


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    #109
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Baffles me why parents expect others to mind their kids for very little money while they go back to work to earn more money.

    Or parents who expect the tax payers/government to sort out child care. You're getting 100 odd euro per month per child so why don't you just use that towards child care. Not enough? Not anyone else's problem

    Because it's not about looking for money.


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    #110
    Wednesday Addams
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Wednesday Addams


    I did childminding full-time with 4 kids for a while at €8.65 an hour and I'd never expect anyone to charge anything less. Circa 400 quid a week is pennies for the work that's involved. I do see the predicament in terms of parents needing to work and yet not being able to afford to!


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    #111
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Because it's not about looking for money.

    It's expecting to mind kids for below minimum wage


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    #112
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    It's expecting to mind kids for below minimum wage

    I don't think anyone here has suggested that cutting wages of those who work in the industry is the answer, minimum wage is too low for the job in the opinion of most.


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    #113
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    It's expecting to mind kids for below minimum wage

    It isn't that either.

    This thread started off with the question of looking for more feasible options for those who use such services and what is the outlay for those who provide'em. Which is a very serious consideration for a lot of people who will need these services.

    Neither part of it is about expecting handouts more than they are due, or being permitted to put anyone else down who provides such services.


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    #114
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    I don't think anyone here has suggested that cutting wages of those who work in the industry is the answer, minimum wage is too low for the job in the opinion of most.

    Which is absolutely true. But how else are you going to make childcare more affordable? Government to subsidise it?


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    #115
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Which is absolutely true. But how else are you going to make childcare more affordable? Government to subsidise it?

    That is the subject of discussion in this thread!


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    #116
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Which is absolutely true. But how else are you going to make childcare more affordable? Government to subsidise it?
    They do in other countries. Sweden is one i can think of. Govt makes more money by having you back at work.
    But that doesn't work here. Sure we live in another dimension altogether!


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    #117
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Or, you could work for a few years, save money, have a child when you can afford it and take time off and mind the child yourself/have the money to pay someone to if you return to work.


    A crazy idea I know but hey


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    #118
    Bog Standard User
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭Bog Standard User


    child clubs might be an answer

    if a number of parents created a group where each parent must mind the group's kids for 1 working day there there would be no charge.

    the parent who earns the least could try getting 1 day off during the week to mind the group's children
    if 5 parents were involved then each parent would be required to work one day minding all the kids

    they can still work a 5 day week if the other parent is willing to mind their own kids on a saturday or sunday

    no creche fees and 5 families per group get free child care

    Mam/Dad A minds kids for Mam A, B, C, D, E on monday
    Mam/Dad B minds kids for Mam A, B, C, D, E on tuesday
    Mam/Dad C minds kids for Mam A, B, C, D, E on wednesday
    Mam/Dad D minds kids for Mam A, B, C, D, E on thursday
    Mam/Dad E minds kids for Mam A, B, C, D, E on friday


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    #119
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Which is absolutely true. But how else are you going to make childcare more affordable? Government to subsidise it?
    They do in other countries. Sweden is one i can think of. Apparently the govt make more money by having you go back to work so they subsidise creche massively so you can get back to work and they then make more money in taxes than if you had not worked because creche was too expensive.
    Thats the result of someone in power using their brains. Everyone in power in this country are only in it for themselves as has been proven time and time again. We will never learn.

    So yes, the govt could subsidise creche here for a small price but make much more in taxes from people working. No brainer.


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    #120
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,730 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    I love the creche where one of my kids spend nearly 4 years, and where my second is currently attending. And I have no problem paying what we are charged.

    I have plently of friends in Germany with children who are absolutely astonished by what we pay. I think they pay about €100 every 2 or 3 months or something ridiculoulsy low.

    So, there are ways that the cost of childcare can be reduced. I just have no idea what they are.

    I'm also pretty sure that in Ireland pre Celtic Tiger, creche fees were nowhere near what they are now.


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    #121
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Or, you could work for a few years, save money, have a child when you can afford it and take time off and mind the child yourself/have the money to pay someone to if you return to work.


    A crazy idea I know but hey

    It takes an estimated 125k to raise a child from baby to adulthood these days.

    How many kids in your family? 2? 3? Let me know when you've 375k in cash handy ready to go. Oh yeah, and you must still be under age 35 as well, you know, for fertility, risk of birth defects etc.

    What's your political slogan... children are for lotto winners only?


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