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Why does childcare cost so much in Ireland?

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    #32
    December2012
    Registered Users Posts: 4,695 ✭✭✭December2012


    Tombo2001 wrote: »


    I know our Childminder manages to get her shopping done, cook the dinner, do all her housework, visit her own (adult) children while minding our kids.

    Its not a tough gig.

    It sounds like she's not doing much childminding then.


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    #33
    keithclancy
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    Sand Wedge wrote: »
    I was reading the below article and it does astonish me how much it costs in Ireland for childcare especially in Dublin where it can cost up to €1,000 per month per child. There has to be a more cost effective way of providing childcare.

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/childcare-costs-three-months-of-average-annual-wage-589219.html

    I know some of the costs are because of staffing levels with:
    Children under age of one requiring a staff to child ratio of 1-3
    Aged 1-2, ratio of 1-5
    Aged 2-3, ratio of 1-6
    Aged 3-6, ratio of 1-8

    Are these providers making huge profits? Should the state get invoved in this sector and provide childcare facilities where they can operate on a break even basis?

    What are your thoughts and opinions?

    Because these days OP, people expect their Childminding facility to have workers qualified in all sorts of stuff.

    Also if anything happens to their little angel the Parents potentially sue the arse off the Creche.

    In the old days you'd get dumped with an older neighbour and they'd throw a few quid their way.

    Ironically you don't need any qualifications to have kids .. you just need a penis and a vagina, however when it comes to minding children people expect Mary Poppins with a degree in Child Psychology.


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    #34
    Pinklady11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 253 ✭✭Pinklady11


    seamus wrote: »
    Staff wages are a big cost but in the main creche staff aren't that well paid.

    Having worked in childcare staff are on little more than minimum wage which is a disgrace considering all staff must be qualified and it is a very demanding job.

    The only person I could see benefiting was the owner who was well accustomed to designer clothes, fancy cars and several foreign holidays a year. No recession in her house!


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    #35
    gemini_girl
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭gemini_girl


    Fromthetrees wrote: »
    It is a tough gig but if you are an individual childminder it can be a nice little job.

    If a mother has a kid of her own to mind anyway and takes on the responsibility to mind two or three other kids then it can be pretty profitable.

    This mother would be a stay at home mother so gets to do all her housework and that anyway all the while making a few hundred Euro extra per week for herself.

    Gets to do all her housework??? Childminders mind children not do housework. I am a childminder & I wouldnt dream of doing all my housework while looking after kids? How can I sit down painting & doing play doh, going to the playground and do my hoovering etc at the same time?! Its the hardest job that i've ever done & for crap money (4 euro an hour!) I'm a childminder because I love children but 11 hours a day with no break & 4 euro an hour is not an easy gig I can tell you


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    #36
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    The costs are even more unbelievable given that staff wages are so low although I assume insurance and overheads are high enough.

    That's not a jibe at crèche workers who do a really important job - not only the primary function of caring for children but also allowing so many people to go out and work in other sectors of the economy.


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    #37
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,526 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    December2012 wrote: »
    It sounds like she's not doing much childminding then.


    Don't know why you would say that, she does the same things any parent would do if they were staying at home minding their kids.


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    #38
    SCOOP 64
    Registered Users Posts: 5,236 ✭✭✭SCOOP 64


    WhiteTiger wrote: »
    Gets to do all her housework??? Childminders mind children not do housework. I am a childminder & I wouldnt dream of doing all my housework while looking after kids? How can I sit down painting & doing play doh, going to the playground and do my hoovering etc at the same time?! Its the hardest job that i've ever done & for crap money (4 euro an hour!) I'm a childminder because I love children but 11 hours a day with no break & 4 euro an hour is not an easy gig I can tell you

    wow! that was some quick come back.


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    #39
    gemini_girl
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭gemini_girl


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Don't know why you would say that, she does the same things any parent would do if they were staying at home minding their kids.
    I dont do all my housework when my kids are at home (3 yrs & 5 yrs). They are involved in the meal prep etc but I get up before them in the morning to do housework & the rest gets done after they go to bed at 7pm. At the week end they get 1 hour of tv & thats when the hoovering is done as that cant be done after bed. The rest of the time we mostly play apart from meals where they love to wash veg etc for me. I dont know any parent who can do loads of house work with small kids, sure they cant be let unsupervised during activities etc not when they are small anyway


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    #40
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    A neighbour of mine did the old "childminding on the side" thing for preschoolers. Turns out she had no qualifications, no insurance and paid no tax. She was also caring for her elderly mother. She suddenly stopped doing it a couple of months ago, not sure why.
    Who in their right mind would send there kids to be cared for with someone like that.


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    #41
    Scartbeg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭Scartbeg


    If the Govt were serious about getting people back to work, they would make childcare costs tax deductible. It is hard to take up low paid jobs when you have to pay out most of your earnings for chilcare.

    It would probably be close to tax neutral, given the extra tax from those taking up employment, and by bringing those carers currently working for cash into the tax loop (parents would only be able to claim relief on payments to registered carers)


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    #42
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    Scartbeg wrote: »
    If the Govt were serious about getting people back to work, they would make childcare costs tax deductible. It is hard to take up low paid jobs when you have to pay out most of your earnings for chilcare.

    It would probably be close to tax neutral, given the extra tax from those taking up employment, and by bringing those carers currently working for cash into the tax loop (parents would only be able to claim relief on payments to registered carers)

    I could not agree more.


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    #43
    vitani
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭vitani


    Scartbeg wrote: »
    If the Govt were serious about getting people back to work, they would make childcare costs tax deductible. It is hard to take up low paid jobs when you have to pay out most of your earnings for chilcare.

    It would probably be close to tax neutral, given the extra tax from those taking up employment, and by bringing those carers currently working for cash into the tax loop (parents would only be able to claim relief on payments to registered carers)

    I agree, but it probably wouldn't affect a lot of lower paid workers who don't pay much PAYE as it is.


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    #44
    Chattastrophe!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭Chattastrophe!


    vitani wrote: »
    I agree, but it probably wouldn't affect a lot of lower paid workers who don't pay much PAYE as it is.

    Exactly, it's the higher earners who would benefit by far the most from this.

    Would be great if they brought in some sort of incentive scheme though. We're expecting a baby soon, the creche we've chosen is over €1,100 a month. We can just about afford it on two (low-ish) salaries, but not a hope of us being able to have another kid anytime soon, solely because of the cost of childcare. If I was single and had to pay it on my own, it just wouldn't be feasible, I'd have no choice but to give up work.


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    #45
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,253 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Good point......what is Ireland cheap for.....that would be an interesting conversation.

    I remember when I was a kid my mother used to go on about people flying in from Iceland to do their shopping in Dunnes.

    I remember that. They used even put up banners in Icelandic welcoming them.


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    #46
    Cee-Jay-Cee
    Registered Users Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    Hardonraging wrote: »
    Taking care of somebody's spoilt little angel is no easy task, it's like you can just put them in a room and head off for a smoke and stick the head in ever 10 mins..

    Says the person with no children and no idea. Both my children are in creche during the week and neither of them are spoilt.


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    #47
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Why is $SERVICE so expensive in Ireland?

    People are free to offer $SERVICE for whatever price they want. If $SERVICE seems expensive in Ireland it is because the $SERVICE providers are charging more, and nobody else has come along who is willing to provide the same service for less. So why does this seem to happen in Ireland all the time?

    Ireland is a relatively small island, in many cases this contributes to a higher cost of goods, in general. Most services provided still require actual consumable goods (you aren't just paying for the baby-sitting service, you are paying for the food, the heating, the toys, the rent).

    Ireland also has a relatively generous social welfare programs and a relatively high minimum wage. There are armies of employees doing work in other countries for significantly less than our minimum wage. Nobody in Ireland is going to do that....because it's illegal. Certainly nobody is going to work for less than the amount of social welfare they can receive. This, absolutely, has an impact on the cost of goods and services - in the US a childcare provider could bring on an extra employee to help watch the kids and pay them 5.30 an hour. In Ireland it is 8.65. That's 63% more.

    Ireland also has relatively high taxes. Yes, there are countries with higher taxes, but there are also lots of countries with lower taxes. When businesses price items in Ireland, that price includes the associated taxes the business needs to pay. A candy bar that costs the business the same amount, that is sold at the same markup, in Ireland needs a 23% VAT added to it. In many other countries that business needs to add 0-10%. Obviously 23% is more than 0-10%, so, the customer sees a higher price tag.

    All of this has a knock-on effect of everything seeming more expensive. Childcare providers charge more because they also *pay* more, for everything they buy too. If they were really making lots and lots of money profit, opportunistic people would come along and do the same thing, but charge less - and they'd make a ton of money. Prices would go down, until opportunistic people no longer were confident they could charge less, provide the same quality of service, and make lots of money.


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    #48
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    UCDVet wrote: »
    Why is $SERVICE so expensive in Ireland?

    People are free to offer $SERVICE for whatever price they want. If $SERVICE seems expensive in Ireland it is because the $SERVICE providers are charging more, and nobody else has come along who is willing to provide the same service for less. So why does this seem to happen in Ireland all the time?

    Ireland is a relatively small island, in many cases this contributes to a higher cost of goods, in general. Most services provided still require actual consumable goods (you aren't just paying for the baby-sitting service, you are paying for the food, the heating, the toys, the rent).

    Ireland also has a relatively generous social welfare programs and a relatively high minimum wage. There are armies of employees doing work in other countries for significantly less than our minimum wage. Nobody in Ireland is going to do that....because it's illegal. Certainly nobody is going to work for less than the amount of social welfare they can receive. This, absolutely, has an impact on the cost of goods and services - in the US a childcare provider could bring on an extra employee to help watch the kids and pay them 5.30 an hour. In Ireland it is 8.65. That's 63% more.

    Ireland also has relatively high taxes. Yes, there are countries with higher taxes, but there are also lots of countries with lower taxes. When businesses price items in Ireland, that price includes the associated taxes the business needs to pay. A candy bar that costs the business the same amount, that is sold at the same markup, in Ireland needs a 23% VAT added to it. In many other countries that business needs to add 0-10%. Obviously 23% is more than 0-10%, so, the customer sees a higher price tag.

    All of this has a knock-on effect of everything seeming more expensive. Childcare providers charge more because they also *pay* more, for everything they buy too. If they were really making lots and lots of money profit, opportunistic people would come along and do the same thing, but charge less - and they'd make a ton of money. Prices would go down, until opportunistic people no longer were confident they could charge less, provide the same quality of service, and make lots of money.

    What had VAT got to do with the cost of creches? There is no vat on the cost they charge their customers and they can claim back any vat they pay?


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    #49
    Vitaliorange
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭Vitaliorange


    UCDVet wrote: »
    Why is $SERVICE so expensive in Ireland?

    People are free to offer $SERVICE for whatever price they want. If $SERVICE seems expensive in Ireland it is because the $SERVICE providers are charging more, and nobody else has come along who is willing to provide the same service for less. So why does this seem to happen in Ireland all the time?

    Ireland is a relatively small island, in many cases this contributes to a higher cost of goods, in general. Most services provided still require actual consumable goods (you aren't just paying for the baby-sitting service, you are paying for the food, the heating, the toys, the rent).

    Ireland also has a relatively generous social welfare programs and a relatively high minimum wage. There are armies of employees doing work in other countries for significantly less than our minimum wage. Nobody in Ireland is going to do that....because it's illegal. Certainly nobody is going to work for less than the amount of social welfare they can receive. This, absolutely, has an impact on the cost of goods and services - in the US a childcare provider could bring on an extra employee to help watch the kids and pay them 5.30 an hour. In Ireland it is 8.65. That's 63% more.

    Ireland also has relatively high taxes. Yes, there are countries with higher taxes, but there are also lots of countries with lower taxes. When businesses price items in Ireland, that price includes the associated taxes the business needs to pay. A candy bar that costs the business the same amount, that is sold at the same markup, in Ireland needs a 23% VAT added to it. In many other countries that business needs to add 0-10%. Obviously 23% is more than 0-10%, so, the customer sees a higher price tag.

    All of this has a knock-on effect of everything seeming more expensive. Childcare providers charge more because they also *pay* more, for everything they buy too. If they were really making lots and lots of money profit, opportunistic people would come along and do the same thing, but charge less - and they'd make a ton of money. Prices would go down, until opportunistic people no longer were confident they could charge less, provide the same quality of service, and make lots of money.

    Another good example of how the high minimum wage reduces the standard of living in this country.

    My brother will have two kids going to creche next year, and even though he only needs the creche four days a week he'll be paying €1800 per month.


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    #50
    MrBobbyZ
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭MrBobbyZ


    We're in a similar position. 2 Kids in crech 5 days per week. It works out at just under our monthly mortgage payment. To be honest it is pretty tough but I honestly cant complain about the price charged because when you break it down (as some posters have just done) it seems very reasonable.

    Cant wait til they are both at school!!


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    #51
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    MrBobbyZ wrote: »
    We're in a similar position. 2 Kids in crech 5 days per week. It works out at just under our monthly mortgage payment. To be honest it is pretty tough but I honestly cant complain about the price charged because when you break it down (as some posters have just done) it seems very reasonable.

    Cant wait til they are both at school!!

    We Can't wait for the subsidised preschool year!


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    #52
    MrBobbyZ
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭MrBobbyZ


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    We Can't wait for the subsidised preschool year!


    Oh yes, forgot about that.
    Easy Street here we come.


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    #53
    Shut the front door
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Shut the front door


    By far the biggest outgoing for a crèche is rates, both types, followed by the usual wages, rent, heating etc. staff wages are in and around €8.65ph and you can be on this for years fully qualified with regular training for any changes to regulations, changes in the curriculum, first aid etc. no VAT on crèche fees but the crèche pay VAT on everything with no way in claiming it back. I know the rates issue was and still is a big one for Early Childhood Ireland who were looking for some sort of a reduction to help crèches out so they could reduce fees.

    Worked in childcare for years and only reached the dizzy heights of €10 before I left to go abroad. It was demeaning working for some crèche owners out there, they way they treated staff and spoke to you like you were something they found on their shoe, especially if you asked for a rise in pay. Worked your butt off 5 days a week, often doing overtime to keep to ratios (free of charge!!)

    But it was great working with the kids, loved it.


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    #54
    mitosis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭mitosis


    anncoates wrote: »
    The costs are even more unbelievable given that staff wages are so low although I assume insurance and overheads are high enough.

    That's not a jibe at crèche workers who do a really important job - not only the primary function of caring for children but also allowing so many people to go out and work in other sectors of the economy.

    Insurance on my very small premises, which has no children, no public access, is c2k per annum. I dread to think what it must be in a crèche.


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    #55
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,147 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    WhiteTiger wrote: »
    I dont do all my housework when my kids are at home (3 yrs & 5 yrs). They are involved in the meal prep etc but I get up before them in the morning to do housework & the rest gets done after they go to bed at 7pm. At the week end they get 1 hour of tv & thats when the hoovering is done as that cant be done after bed. The rest of the time we mostly play apart from meals where they love to wash veg etc for me. I dont know any parent who can do loads of house work with small kids, sure they cant be let unsupervised during activities etc not when they are small anyway

    I do housework with my daughter at home. It only takes a few minutes to throw on a wash. She can play by herself where I can see her while I tidy the kitchen or make lunch. She comes upstairs with me while I put clothes away. You must have very non messy kids because there's no way I could Hoover only at the weekends! It's at least twice a day for me downstairs anyway.

    When she goes to bed I tidy properly, putting away her toys etc but during the day I still get stuff done as do the other stay at home parents I know.


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    #56
    Ginny
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 13,425 ✭✭✭✭Ginny


    Some crèches make a huge profit, wasn't it the couple who own links or giraffe that made 1+million in profits according to that RTE program?
    If we had 2 kids full time in crèche it would be twice our mortgage. It's 50 a day per child and the staff amazing as they are don't see much of that. I'm in a well paid job as is my husband, we'd probably be what the government class as middle class, but we really have to think about affording a second child as the monthly crèche fees would be relatively close to one of our take home wages.


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    #57
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,496 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    It should be tax deductible, it would encourage more women to go back to work (or not give it up in the first place) with all the economic benefits that has, I think they worry about "discriminating" against stay at home mothers.


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    #58
    gemini_girl
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭gemini_girl


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    I do housework with my daughter at home. It only takes a few minutes to throw on a wash. She can play by herself where I can see her while I tidy the kitchen or make lunch. She comes upstairs with me while I put clothes away. You must have very non messy kids because there's no way I could Hoover only at the weekends! It's at least twice a day for me downstairs anyway.

    When she goes to bed I tidy properly, putting away her toys etc but during the day I still get stuff done as do the other stay at home parents I know.
    I have 2 very messy boys :) They make their own beds, they both get their own breakfast (extra messy!) we bring 5 yr old to school & then me & 3 yr old spend morning playing with a break to maybe bring up a pile of clothes to put away (he does the underwear) he likes to "make" his own lunch (more mess but we clean it up together) after 5 yr old comes home we do homework & then head out for walk, out the back or to playground on bikes etc & back home where they help with dinner, after dinner we do games (guess who is a big hit at the moment) & then baths & in bed asleep for 7pm. Then the rest of the housework/cleaning is done usually by 8pm & I might do some ironing one or two nights a week. The house is never spotless but the way i look at it is I will have years of cleaning after they've grown up. My own mum cleaned excessively & never took time to sit down & play so I am probably over compensating but i find once they are involved when I do have to clean we just make it a fun thing & everyone is happy


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    #59
    gemini_girl
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭gemini_girl


    astrofool wrote: »
    It should be tax deductible, it would encourage more women to go back to work (or not give it up in the first place) with all the economic benefits that has, I think they worry about "discriminating" against stay at home mothers.
    I spent time working in a german kindergarten before i had my own kids & the workers there were astounded by the creche costs here. In germany the costs are covered by tax & parents only had to pay 20 euro a month (that was 6 yrs ago)!!! And I have never seen anything like that standard of kindergarten here. It was unbelieveable. The childrens meals were included & the lay out & equipment was fantastic. Each room had a fully functioning child sized built in kitchen & each child had their own sink unit in the bathrooms etc and for such a small cost to the parents


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    #60
    Benteke
    Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭Benteke


    Because idiots are willing to pay it


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    #61
    Chattastrophe!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭Chattastrophe!


    Benteke wrote: »
    Because idiots are willing to pay it

    And ... if I don't pay it? What exactly do you suggest I do with my kid when I go back to work?


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