The Food Pyramid, Safefood and non-competition entries

Roger Marbles · 28-06-2011 1:47pm

As for what we expect..

Personally, a response to the saturated fat issue for a start.

They were supposed to get back to us on that (safefood representatives with phds in nutrition were being consulted I believe) and given the evidence I and others have cited showing no correlation in terms of observational studies, one gets the impression they are avoiding the issue.

Darragh · 28-06-2011 1:47pm

That's great. Can you give me a couple of days to get answers for all these please? They're enough to start with anyhow!

Cheers and thanks

Darragh

Roger Marbles · 28-06-2011 1:50pm

No worries

If we could just be engaged with in a meaningful way rather than replies with 'here are the WHO guidelines' etc, the potential for learning on both sides could prove most useful.

What has anyone got to lose?

Brian? · 28-06-2011 3:11pm

Darragh wrote: »

I don't see this as having being done?

Sorry Darragh, that was my fault. I didn't follow through on my promise.

Darragh · 28-06-2011 3:15pm

briankeating wrote: »

Sorry Darragh, that was my fault. I didn't follow through on my promise.

That's okay, don't worry about it. The post above is very helpful so I hope we can get something from that.

Newaglish · 28-06-2011 9:43pm

This has been touched on before but what authority does safefood have over promotion of awareness around weight issues?

The legislation setting up safefood (as distinct from the Food Safety Authority of Ireland) provides for:

A body with the following functions:
— promotion of food safety
— research into food safety
— communication of food alerts
— surveillance of food-borne diseases
— promotion of scientific co-operation and linkages between laboratories
— development of cost-effective facilities for specialised laboratory testing.

Unless there has been further legislation in this area or I'm misreading the legislation listed on safefood's website (I'm not a solicitor) it would appear the body is acting outside of its legal remit? Which would possibly go some lengths to explaining why there is such a half-baked attempt made at providing actual quality nutritional advice.

Zamboni · 29-06-2011 10:38am

Newaglish wrote: »

This has been touched on before but what authority does safefood have over promotion of awareness around weight issues?

The legislation setting up safefood (as distinct from the Food Safety Authority of Ireland) provides for:

Unless there has been further legislation in this area or I'm misreading the legislation listed on safefood's website (I'm not a solicitor) it would appear the body is acting outside of its legal remit? Which would possibly go some lengths to explaining why there is such a half-baked attempt made at providing actual quality nutritional advice.

It is also why Safefood will not answer the majority of the questions posed above as they are outside their remit. (school book content for example).

However, there is large scale duplication and innefective areas in the public health promotion and food safety.
I would encourage anyone articulate enough to make a submission as per below. (I just tend to point and shout but I will make a submission anyhow).

Minister Howlin invited comments and suggestions from all citizens to be submitted via his new website. “I am looking for ideas from everyone and anyone in Ireland, whether from the public or private sectors. I do appreciate that many users of public services – as well as public servants themselves – will have a clear view of wasteful practices, of spending programmes and schemes that offer poor value for money, or areas where staff could be freed up for other duties. I am asking everyone to let me have their constructive proposals so that they can be considered in the context of the review. The challenge facing our country is so great that no reasonable proposal can be ignored. That is why I have set up a dedicated area on my Department’s website, to capture these suggestions centrally to feed into the current expenditure review.”

http://brendanhowlin.ie/latest%20news/21_june_2011.htm

The contact email is below and you should put Food or Health in the Subject Line
expenditurereview@per.gov.ie

http://per.gov.ie/comprehensive-review-of-expenditure/

Wood · 29-06-2011 12:14pm

It appears that the majority of people on this thread are aware of the current outdated policies of safefood, and their over reliance on the outdated food pyramid and recommended practices. Is it any wonder that these people are becoming the main offenders when it comes to Ireland’s ever expanding waistline.

Advertising such delicious options as pizza and macaroni and cheese for lunch, as well as lasagne and fish and chips for dinner, will not end well.

The average person with little or no interest in nutrition will use this as a means to justify, albeit convince themselves, that what they’re eating is healthy just because it’s on the safefood website.

We have a heavily carbohydrate reliant diet that is pretty much defunct over the last 30 years, with less and less people toiling in fields and engaging in manual labour, and more and more emerging in sedentary careers behind computer screens.

The problem with this is the board are a little out of touch and their ideas will not change due to the ideals they subscribe to and their unwillingness to “rock the boat” if you will.

Instead of the usual scare-mongering tactics used, why not educate the masses?

The biggest problems people need to overcome are;
(a)the overabundance and over promotion of the refined carb heavy diet

(b) the blatant ostracising and phobia of fats

and (c) the under-utilisation of some of the world’s best protein sources available here in Ireland.

(a) Should we mitigate the over saturation of processed carb and sugar laden foods recommended to people, then without question the obesity and diabetes problems will subside (The correlation between sugar / simple carbs and insulin response shouldn’t need to be raised again). By simply replacing the 6+ per day with fibrous carbohydrates from (Non-starchy) vegetables a vast decrease in obesity would occur.

(b) As the sat-fat studies have shown, the previous myth between sat-fat and heart problems has been de-bunked, fat-free and “healthy heart” foods shout be a thing of the past, instead why not promote the use of fats in order to shed pound and have a healthier body and mind? Our bodies need fats and proteins to survive, carbs however we do not.

(c) A serving suggestion of half a small chicken breast from the safefood website is far too small to be one of our two a day. With some of the best beef in the world and amazing fishing waters yielding impeccably high standards of fish we should be encouraging a higher consumption of this lean protein, which in turn leaves people satiated for longer thus eliminating the need to overeat.

It disgusts me that these people are in charge of promoting this to the people of Ireland when they’re pedalling the same nonsense for the last 20 years. Maybe heart disease and diabetes would not be on the rise so much if the food pyramid was changed 20 years ago, could lives have been saved?

Bottom line is we as a nation, need to exercise more, and eat less crap. All of this will, however fall on deaf ears as we are not the ones with the PhD’s in Nutrition, oh wait, neither are any of the members of the board, so this makes me just as qualified to have this CORRECT opinion as any of them.

I’m annoyed at the lack of knowledge at your organisation, and your unwillingness to take on board the advice that the public, the people you are here to help, offer you.

Instead of stepping up and trying to change something, you refuse to take on board great ideas put forward to you, and decide to hide behind archaic, disproven studioes that no longer hold merit.

Rant over.

safefood: Dermot · 29-06-2011 4:40pm

Thanks to everyone who posted a question and to Roger Marbles for pulling them all together - my colleague Aileen is back tomorrow, will look at these and answer as many as possible.

On the query of why imperial instead of metric measurements, when the campaign was being developed we asked consumers what measurement they would use for measuring their waist - 77% said inches, 6 % said cm which is why we used inches.

Dermot

Hanley · 29-06-2011 4:48pm

safefood: Dermot wrote: »

Thanks to everyone who posted a question and to Roger Marbles for pulling them all together - my colleague Aileen is back tomorrow, will look at these and answer as many as possible.

On the query of why imperial instead of metric measurements, when the campaign was being developed we asked consumers what measurement they would use for measuring their waist - 77% said inches, 6 % said cm which is why we used inches.

Dermot

What did the other 17% say?!

Zamboni · 29-06-2011 4:50pm

Hanley wrote: »

What did the other 17% say?!

atari jaguar

safefood: Aileen · 30-06-2011 9:39am

Roger Marbles wrote: »

Questions were originally going to be collated by moderator briankeating on page 3-4. I have all of them here I think:

1) What about the industrialisation of our food chain? And the hyper-patability of said industrial food stuffs? Not to mind the poor nutritional quality of these foods?

Hi Roger, I'm going to try to get to as many of these questions as possible throughout the day.

On the first one - I am not entirely sure what you mean by industrialization. On an island where most people don’t produce their own food and where much of our food supply is imported, industrialization (meaning here mass production and complex supply chain) is necessary to feed the population. If you mean processed, we agree that most people eat too many processed foods. Our advice is to eat as unprocessed a diet as is possible and to cook from raw ingredients whenever possible.

columok · 30-06-2011 10:27am

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

If you mean processed, we agree that most people eat too many processed foods. Our advice is to eat as unprocessed a diet as is possible and to cook from raw ingredients whenever possible.

Aileen,

How does this sensible advice above fit in with the first piece of advice on your food pyramid section being "Eat plenty of bread..."? Bread is hyper-processed and often rammed with sugar and vegetable oil. It would seem to me that Ireland's bread, cereal and pasta intake (all heavily processed) are the single biggest contributor to our expanding waistlines!

safefood: Aileen · 30-06-2011 10:28am

Roger Marbles wrote: »

Questions were originally going to be collated by moderator briankeating on page 3-4. I have all of them here I think:

I have answered some of the questions on the amount of carbohydrate that is recommended before but to summarise:
Bearing in mind that the Food Pyramid is a guide that aims to achieve nutritional adequacy and prevent chronic disease at a population level and is not designed specifically for weight loss, the amount of carbohydrate recommended is necessary to provide adequate energy for weight maintenance for the whole population including adults and children. It is advised that most of the carbohydrates should be eaten in their unrefined forms; wholegrain bread and cereals, brown rice etc. This is to protect gut health and to prevent constipation. There is also a relationship between fibre intake and cardiovascular health. 80% of Irish adults don’t meet their recommended intake of dietary fibre.
For weight maintenance 6-12 portions of carbohydrate foods are currently recommended. Energy needs will depend on age, gender and physical activity level. Typically a child might need 6 portions while a very active man might require as much as 12. For a guide to portion size you’ll find more information here http://weigh2live.safefood.eu/eatwell/tips/portionsizes/ and here http://www.bdaweightwise.com/eating/eating_plan.html
For people who are trying to lose weight we recommended reducing carbohydrate intake to 6 portions a day. As an example, this could include a small bowl of wholegrain cereal for breakfast (30-40grams), 2 slices of wholegrain bread as a sandwich for lunch, three cups of plain popcorn as a snack and two medium potatoes for dinner.

fearcruach · 30-06-2011 10:48am

@Aileen Safefood

The Weigh2Live site under "Ideas for a balanced diet" has the following advice:

Eating enough starchy foods
Top tips on eating enough starchy foods:

Base each meal on a starchy food, like bread, pasta, cereals, potato or rice
Try out the different types of breads – rolls, wraps, pittas or sliced – choosing wholemeal varieties when you can
Put more rice or pasta and less sauce on your plate at dinnertime
Start the day with some energy-giving starchy foods like wholemeal toast, porridge or a healthy wholegrain breakfast cereal

The bolded statements are ridiculous advice to be giving to people.

Increase the amount of pasta or rice on the plate? As a nation I think the amounts of pasta/rice/potatoes on our plates is completely overboard and that telling people to increase this is very counter productive. The same site says to watch your portion size and that a portion of pasta is two tablespoons, yet one click away has suggestions to increase this.

Do Safefood think that people cutting down on their unhealthy carbohydrate diet will result in a tidal wave of epidemic constipation?

Terrible advice imo.

Ouchette · 30-06-2011 11:18am

Beginning to think Aileen's either an expert troll or is forbidden to post links to evidence instead of PR pieces.

Zamboni · 30-06-2011 11:33am

Ouchette wrote: »

Beginning to think Aileen's either an expert troll or is forbidden to post links to evidence instead of PR pieces.

This is the result of an unchallenging university system and a nonchalant public service quango.
Hate the game, not the player.

Newaglish · 30-06-2011 12:17pm

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

For people who are trying to lose weight we recommended reducing carbohydrate intake to 6 portions a day. As an example, this could include a small bowl of wholegrain cereal for breakfast (30-40grams), 2 slices of wholegrain bread as a sandwich for lunch, three cups of plain popcorn as a snack and two medium potatoes for dinner.

6 portions? The link you provided suggests 7 or 8 for women or men respectively trying to lose weight. Which is it?

And check out these wonderful weight-loss goodies!

http://www.bdaweightwise.com/eating/eating_plan.html wrote:

A serving is:

1 slice of bread or toast
½ bread roll/bagel
2 crispbreads
3 small crackers
½ pitta or 1 mini pitta
1 small chapatti
3 tablespoons (tbsp.) breakfast cereal
3 tbsp. dry porridge oats
2 egg-sized potatoes
2 heaped tbsp. boiled rice
3 heaped tbsp. boiled pasta
1 small plain naan bread
1 medium plantain
2 small oat cakes
1 plain biscuit
1 crumpet
½ English muffin
½ fruit or plain scone
1 scotch pancake
1 small slice malt loaf
3 cups plain popcorn
1 small corn on the cob
Tips:

Aim for at least 2 servings at each meal
Choose wholemeal/high fibre varieties whenever possible

Muffins, scones, pancakes, rolls, bagels, toast, rice, pasta and biscuits? The weight is going to fall off on this diet! I'm not even going to go into the ridiculous measurements methods for some of the items.

safefood: Aileen · 30-06-2011 12:37pm

Roger Marbles wrote: »

Questions were originally going to be collated by moderator briankeating on page 3-4. I have all of them here I think:

Again, a number of these questions refer to the national guideline to reduce saturated fat.
On the attached document we have pulled together an overview of the evidence as it stands at the moment and included both positive and negative studies.
For those with access to university libraries, the reference below gives a good overview of the state of the evidence in relation to epidemiologic, clinical and mechanistic studies. The evidence shows that the risk of CHD is reduced when saturated fatty acids are replaced with polyunsaturated fatty acids.

The role of reducing intakes of saturated fat in the prevention of cardiovascular disease: where does the evidence stand in 2010? Astrup A, Dyerberg J, Elwood P, Hermansen K, Hu FB, Jakobsen MU, Kok FJ, Krauss RM, Lecerf JM, LeGrand P, Nestel P, Risérus U, Sanders T, Sinclair A, Stender S, Tholstrop T, Willett WC.

In relation to the references we have used in answerig posts to date, and given that this is a public forum, in general we would prefer to link people to documents that they will have full access to. Most people don't have access to academic journals. Those with access can then examine the original research papers referred to in policy documents etc as they wish.

safefood: Aileen · 30-06-2011 12:39pm

Newaglish wrote: »

6 portions? The link you provided suggests 7 or 8 for women or men respectively trying to lose weight. Which is it?

We recommend 6. I provided the BDA link because they have more detail on a wider variety of foods. Apologies for the confusion.

safefood: Aileen · 30-06-2011 12:40pm

fearcruach wrote: »

@Aileen Safefood

The Weigh2Live site under "Ideas for a balanced diet" has the following advice:

Eating enough starchy foods
Top tips on eating enough starchy foods:

Base each meal on a starchy food, like bread, pasta, cereals, potato or rice
Try out the different types of breads – rolls, wraps, pittas or sliced – choosing wholemeal varieties when you can
Put more rice or pasta and less sauce on your plate at dinnertime
Start the day with some energy-giving starchy foods like wholemeal toast, porridge or a healthy wholegrain breakfast cereal

The bolded statements are ridiculous advice to be giving to people.

Increase the amount of pasta or rice on the plate? As a nation I think the amounts of pasta/rice/potatoes on our plates is completely overboard and that telling people to increase this is very counter productive. The same site says to watch your portion size and that a portion of pasta is two tablespoons, yet one click away has suggestions to increase this.

Do Safefood think that people cutting down on their unhealthy carbohydrate diet will result in a tidal wave of epidemic constipation?

Terrible advice imo.

This advice aims to encourage people to change the balance of the foods they are eating, not to eat more overall.

TommyKnocker · 30-06-2011 12:49pm

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

Roger Marbles wrote: »

Questions were originally going to be collated by moderator briankeating on page 3-4. I have all of them here I think:

I have answered some of the questions on the amount of carbohydrate that is recommended before but to summarise:
Bearing in mind that the Food Pyramid is a guide that aims to achieve nutritional adequacy and prevent chronic disease at a population level and is not designed specifically for weight loss, the amount of carbohydrate recommended is necessary to provide adequate energy for weight maintenance for the whole population including adults and children.

The safe food "stop the spread" campaign is about advising the population of Ireland that they may be over weight based on their waist measurement. Their video tells folks to "log on to the safe food web site for more to do" where they will find information based on the outdated Food Pyramid. Something that is not specifically designed for this purpose.

I would also argue that there is little to no nutritional value to eating 6 portions of grains or starched based carbs, as in little to no vitamins and minerals available.

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

It is advised that most of the carbohydrates should be eaten in their unrefined forms; wholegrain bread and cereals, brown rice etc. This is to protect gut health and to prevent constipation. There is also a relationship between fibre intake and cardiovascular health. 80% of Irish adults don’t meet their recommended intake of dietary fibre.

To eat carbohyrates in their unrefined forms why not recommend an increase in vegatable and fruit intake. This way you not only get the carbohydrates but also an abundance of vitamins, minerals and trace elements that the body also requires for optimum health.

Veg and fruit are also a source of fibre which will keep the gut healthy, prevent constipation and improve cardiovascular health naturally.

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

For weight maintenance 6-12 portions of carbohydrate foods are currently recommended. Energy needs will depend on age, gender and physical activity level. Typically a child might need 6 portions while a very active man might require as much as 12.

IMHO There are few enough folks (adults or kids) in this day and age who have an activity level that would require anything like 6-12 portions of starch based carbs daily, and the evidence is all around with people who eat acording to these guidelines suffering weight related issues.

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

For a guide to portion size you’ll find more information here http://weigh2live.safefood.eu/eatwell/tips/portionsizes/ and here http://www.bdaweightwise.com/eating/eating_plan.html

Most useful part of this post IMHO as most folks have no idea what constitutes a "portion" as defined by the food pyramid. How many folks do you know have 3 table spoons of oats for breakfast or 2 egg sized potatoes for dinner?

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

For people who are trying to lose weight we recommended reducing carbohydrate intake to 6 portions a day. As an example, this could include a small bowl of wholegrain cereal for breakfast (30-40grams), 2 slices of wholegrain bread as a sandwich for lunch, three cups of plain popcorn as a snack and two medium potatoes for dinner.

Again recommendation for starched based carbs. Carbs don't have to come from starchy sources!!!

safefood: Aileen · 30-06-2011 12:55pm

Roger Marbles wrote: »

Questions were originally going to be collated by moderator briankeating on page 3-4. I have all of them here I think:

7) Why do they only recommend modest amounts of protein when our ancestors ate much more, when it's scientifically unproven the link between high protein diets and either renal disease or colon cancer in healthy individuals?

On the protein issue, the Pyramid is designed to recommend enough protein foods to provide nutritional adequacy. At the moment most people eat far more protein than is necessary for good health.

On the note of caution, there is evidence that a diet high in meat may increase risk of colon cancer (see http://www.wcrf-uk.org/ for a report) , and given that this is a key source of protein here in Ireland, advice to increase protein intake in general may be harmful and may not provide any added benefit.

Cookie_Monster · 30-06-2011 1:03pm

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

On the note of caution, there is evidence that a diet high in meat may increase risk of colon cancer (see http://www.wcrf-uk.org/ for a report) , and given that this is a key source of protein here in Ireland, advice to increase protein intake in general may be harmful and may not provide any added benefit.

or it may not...

Red meat may be the greatest thing in the world...

Surely as a food advisory body you should be relying on hard science that can tell you that X does whatever or can cause this if Y or will lower y rather than stuff may or could or possibly?

Hanley · 30-06-2011 1:21pm

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

On the protein issue, the Pyramid is designed to recommend enough protein foods to provide nutritional adequacy. At the moment most people eat far more protein than is necessary for good health

Wow. Just wow.

So this is what we're up against in Ireland.

Zamboni · 30-06-2011 1:28pm

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

Roger Marbles wrote: »

Questions were originally going to be collated by moderator briankeating on page 3-4. I have all of them here I think:

7) Why do they only recommend modest amounts of protein when our ancestors ate much more, when it's scientifically unproven the link between high protein diets and either renal disease or colon cancer in healthy individuals?

On the protein issue, the Pyramid is designed to recommend enough protein foods to provide nutritional adequacy.
At the moment most people eat far more protein than is necessary for good health.

Is there any chance you could please quantify the two statements in bold?

What is the protein requirement for nutritional adequacy?
What quantity is 'far more protein than is necessary for good health?

Newaglish · 30-06-2011 1:32pm

I have no idea how to respond to that comment about protein. You're recommending we eat less lean meats, eggs, fish, etc. and more bread, breakfast cereals, muffins, bagels and scones?

Sweet obese Jesus.

fearcruach · 30-06-2011 1:34pm

safefood: Aileen wrote: »

This advice aims to encourage people to change the balance of the foods they are eating, not to eat more overall.

The point is that Irish people associate starchy carbohydrates such as pasta/rice/potatoes/bread as a fundamental and often the largest proportion of each meal.

You are recommending people eat more carbohydrates in order to "change the balance", where it is obvious that the balance needs to be swung back from a carbohydrate centric view.

These guidelines aren't changing the balance at all. They are setting the status quo in stone.

30-06-2011 1:37pm

compaqlaptop1 · 30-06-2011 1:43pm

Can someone explain to me why the average Irish adult or child needs 6 portions of carbs a day? Is it in case they decide to run a half marathon or what?

The Food Pyramid, Safefood and non-competition entries

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