M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

lotusm · 30-11-2012 3:51pm

veryangryman wrote: »

Ive driven Athlone-Westport so have done Tulsk-Ballaghadreen. These parts aint great but id have to see your N5 and raise you the N61, N55, N72, all of which are brutal roads, worse than the N5. N17 in places also

I am coming from the point of good roads to Dublin which is very importatnt for direct access to the western region ... "all roads lead to Dublin" so they say

...the roads N61 and N55 eventhough are not great are coming from South to North in direction and to be fair are of lessor strategic impotance to the National roadwork... Could not see the N72 on the map ..where is that ?

serfboard · 30-11-2012 5:45pm

veryangryman wrote: »

Jesus Westerners do themselves no favour with the "Dublin gets everythign argument"

[snip] Meantime, be thankful you got that stupid train track from Ennis to Galway, and a decent N5 upgrade while the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities in Ireland have a goat track linking them

Infrastructure we in the West have to be thankful for:

M6, M4 and N4 improvements.
M18
N17 Improvements - Ballindine->Claremorris, Claremorris->Charlestown including Claremorris and Knock Bypasses, even the tiddly Castletown realignment just completed. Took an awful bad bend off this road.

Knock Airport

Infrastructure we're not thankful for:

The Ennis->Athenry link. How do I know we're not thankful for it? Because we're not using it! Use it or lose it should be the rule (as a former Minister said about the Midleton upgrade).

Infrastructure we want:

M18 Completion and M17 to Tuam including Tuam bypass
N17 Improvements: Milltown->Ballindine including bypasses of both. Charlestown->N4 including bypasses of Charlestown and Tubercurry.
N5 improvements, including proper bypasses of Castlebar and Westport
N4 improvements
GALWAY CITY BYPASS!!!

Give us all those and we'll be quiet ... we swear!

lotusm wrote: »

13.6 kM upgrade upgrade of the N5 of single carriageway....

Gotta be thankful for that though. It's an improvement to the N5 which presumably you want? There is a depression going on, ya know?

lotusm wrote: »

I am coming from the point of good roads to Dublin which is very importatnt for direct access to the western region ... "all roads lead to Dublin" so they say ...the roads N61 and N55 eventhough are not great are coming from South to North in direction and to be fair are of lessor strategic impotance to the National roadwork... Could not see the N72 on the map ..where is that ?

The N72 is a shocking road going from Killorglin->Dungarvan. I've only been on parts of it but they're unbelievable. True what you way, though, it's not strategic, which is why my suggested improvements are.

yer man! · 30-11-2012 7:37pm

serfboard wrote: »

The Ennis->Athenry link. How do I know we're not thankful for it? Because we're not using it! Use it or lose it should be the rule (as a former Minister said about the Midleton upgrade).

Everyone knew it wouldn't work, too slow and too expensive, if those two problems were addressed in the construction of it then it would maybe have been more successful.

spacetweek · 01-12-2012 11:55pm

yer man! wrote: »

What really does piss me off though is that in Galway city, there hasn't been a new road built in the city in over 10 - 15 years, it was at capacity around 2000 and nothing has been done since then.

I think we would all agree with that but you are blaming the wrong thing. It isn't Dublin or the government's fault that Galway's bypass is mired in legal difficulties. You have a single person (our friend Sweetman) responsible for this.

As for the tired observation that only Dublin radials have been upgraded, they carry the highest levels of traffic in the country. It's just a simple numbers game.

f2 · 02-12-2012 10:10am

Of course its a numbers game but what the west needs is one motorway completed M17, Dublin and its radials have had such upgrading in the last 10 years that you would think the country ends and begins on the M50. Traffic and Galway city needs the the outer ringroad and M17

veryangryman · 02-12-2012 7:24pm

f2 wrote: »

Of course its a numbers game but what the west needs is one motorway completed M17, Dublin and its radials have had such upgrading in the last 10 years that you would think the country ends and begins on the M50. Traffic and Galway city needs the the outer ringroad and M17

M17 wont help Galway that much; i still cant see much traffic being diverted from the city on this. Even combined with the bypass its not going to make much difference. A junction for the old N17 ClareGalway Road may have helped this but no such luck.

yer man! · 02-12-2012 7:31pm

veryangryman wrote: »

M17 wont help Galway that much; i still cant see much traffic being diverted from the city on this. Even combined with the bypass its not going to make much difference. A junction for the old N17 ClareGalway Road may have helped this but no such luck.

but wouldn't the majority of traffic coming through claregalway already be on the motorway? M17 > M6 > N6 bypass.

Jack breen · 02-12-2012 9:23pm

Is this going ahead people? It seems to be started on the Mayo side of Tuam. Also have ye a thread on the realingment work close to Milltown.

yer man! · 02-12-2012 11:53pm

Jack breen wrote: »

Is this going ahead people? It seems to be started on the Mayo side of Tuam. Also have ye a thread on the realingment work close to Milltown.

I think that may be the bad bend that the council are getting rid of north of Tuam, not the motorway.

Jack breen · 03-12-2012 9:26am

yer man! wrote: »

I think that may be the bad bend that the council are getting rid of north of Tuam, not the motorway.

No when you are heading for Tuam before the realinged road there is fencing off to the left.

stampydmonkey · 03-12-2012 9:41am

Jack breen wrote: »

No when you are heading for Tuam before the realinged road there is fencing off to the left.

the tuam bypass was cpo'd and fenced off years ago but not sure if this is what your talking about

antoobrien · 03-12-2012 10:51am

Jack breen wrote: »

Is this going ahead people? It seems to be started on the Mayo side of Tuam. Also have ye a thread on the realingment work close to Milltown.

This project only brings the new alignment of the N/M17 as far as Tuam, bypassing it to about 1/2 mile north of the N83 junction.

The other two projects, which are unrelated to the ARC project (bringing a DC from Sligo to Rosslare), are re-alignments of the existing road and are needed regardless of the future downgrading of the road.

The fact is that with the Gort-Tuam project due to start (hopefully) next year and no prospect of getting Tuam-Claremorris any time soon, the improvements to the N17 north of Tuam are more important than ever as there will be more traffic it when the Tuam bypass is completed.

Sponge Bob · 06-12-2012 10:21am

Varadkar carefully kicks the project back to around 2015 and refuses to fight for a share of the 4G licence windfall or the Lottery Contract which will be sold off next year.

None of the Labour and FG politicians we have in Galway is gonna make him do nuthin neither.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/29180-motorway-will-only-get-go-ahead-when-state-sells-crown-jewels

The Minister for Transport has confirmed that there is no funding in place to proceed with the 57 kilometre stretch of motorway and is wholly dependent on the Government selling off State assets, like its share in Aer Lingus, CIE or Coillte for example

Irish and Proud · 06-12-2012 1:29pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Varadkar carefully kicks the project back to around 2015 and refuses to fight for a share of the 4G licence windfall or the Lottery Contract which will be sold off next year.

None of the Labour and FG politicians we have in Galway is gonna make him do nuthin neither.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/29180-motorway-will-only-get-go-ahead-when-state-sells-crown-jewels

Stop paying grants to big business and farmers - that money should go to infrastructure. There's three core aspects to the function of a proper state:

1. Regulation;
2. Protection of the Vulnerable;
3. Provision of Infrastructure.

We need a new republic - simple as!

It's also a disgrace that Dublin isn't getting it's underground - especially when it was reported recently that Dublin, Meath and Kildare is subsidizing the rest of the country!

antoobrien · 06-12-2012 1:48pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

It's also a disgrace that Dublin isn't getting it's underground - especially when it was reported recently that Dublin, Meath and Kildare is subsidizing the rest of the country!

There's one good reason why it shouldn't happen - all giving Dublin the underground will do is re-enforce the cost base and more likely cause it to rise again. This will negatively affect our competitiveness.

lotusm · 06-12-2012 2:01pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Stop paying grants to big business and farmers - that money should go to infrastructure. There's three core aspects to the function of a proper state:

1. Regulation;
2. Protection of the Vulnerable;
3. Provision of Infrastructure.

We need a new republic - simple as!

It's also a disgrace that Dublin isn't getting it's underground - especially when it was reported recently that Dublin, Meath and Kildare is subsidizing the rest of the country!

Sure are ya getting the Luas interchange for F'''S sake... this country broke.... Billions has been spent on infrastructure in the last decade in the Dublin region... there only been crumbs spent north of Galway/Athlone... what about balance regional development...
Subsidizing the rest of the country you say... are you having a laugh... do you want everyone to move to the pale:eek:

Irish and Proud · 06-12-2012 2:10pm

antoobrien wrote: »

There's one good reason why it shouldn't happen - all giving Dublin the underground will do is re-enforce the cost base and more likely cause it to rise again. This will negatively affect our competitiveness.

Well, I think Metro North should be left aside for now, but IMO the DART Underground should go ahead as well as Luas BxD (thankfully, this is going ahead). The AWC is also a must, including the M20, but the M17/18 at the very least. I'm not anti-West or anything, but I'm very much against the super-rich who IMO have been ripping this country off for years.

This country's business elite need to go on an economic diet - all these tax breaks and grants are IMO distorting the market at the tax-payer's expense and as far as I'm concerned, the business regime in this country is bloated! - fair competition is what we need, not subsidized (distorted) competition - that's a pure waste of money - money that should go to infrastructure instead - this includes upgrading our disgraceful mobile broadband network, upgrading remaining National Primary Roads, providing new rail routes, upgrading our water services, renewable energy etc.

Back to Dublin, the DART Underground along with the Luas BxD would probably put us on a closer footing with the likes of Glasgow (a city that has a comprehensive motorway and railway system - alas, we only got the do the motorways around Dublin and are still about 30 years behind - without the large motorway system, we'd be 60 years behind other cities at this stage). That said, I also think its's a disgrace that your city, another vibrant place, is being denied the much needed GCOB - with that motorway in place, GLuas might then be possible.

Regards!

Irish and Proud · 06-12-2012 2:20pm

lotusm wrote: »

Sure are ya getting the Luas interchange for F'''S sake... this country broke.... Billions has been spent on infrastructure in the last decade in the Dublin region... there only been crumbs spent north of Galway/Athlone... what about balance regional development...
Subsidizing the rest of the country you say... are you having a laugh... do you want everyone to move to the pale:eek:

I never said forget the North and West etc. - what I said was that given that Dublin (and surrounding counties) are the bread winners, there's a minimum that Dublin has the right to accept - look at Glasgow (a comparable city) and the rail system they have. You say the country is broke - well if that's so, then we can't afford the Dail TDs, their salaries and multiple pensions (Dole Eireann). We can't afford the CEOs in state circles either - we can't afford tax breaks (except corporation tax) and grants for big business and farmers etc. We can't afford the HSE administration and so on...

Just don't give me "The country is broke!" - that's Bull!!!

antoobrien · 06-12-2012 2:23pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Well, I think Metro North should be left aside for now, but IMO the DART Underground should go ahead as well as Luas BxD (thankfully, this is going ahead). The AWC is also a must, including the M20, but the M17/18 at the very least. I'm not anti-West or anything, but I'm very much against the super-rich who IMO have been ripping this country off for years.

I agree wholeheartedly on DU & MN. BxD is something I'm not too sure on.

I didn't mean to imply that you're anti west (your history support of the various projects proves you are anything but), but my thinking is on how we can get the most benefit without doing damage.

If we can't cut costs - such as wages and transport costs (which seems to be a bit of a no-no), then we have to try to keep the highest base steady or increasing slowly and bring up the rest of the country to that level. That can't be achieved without investment.

It's not that I'm anti east (I work in Dublin) but I think that pumping money there right now is the wrong thing for the country as a whole.

Irish and Proud · 06-12-2012 2:30pm

antoobrien wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly on DU & MN. BxD is something I'm not too sure on.

I didn't mean to imply that you're anti west (your history support of the various projects proves you are anything but), but my thinking is on how we can get the most benefit without doing damage.

If we can't cut costs - such as wages and transport costs (which seems to be a bit of a no-no), then we have to try to keep the highest base steady or increasing slowly and bring up the rest of the country to that level. That can't be achieved without investment.

It's not that I'm anti east (I work in Dublin) but I think that pumping money there right now is the wrong thing for the country as a whole.

Yeah, I see you point, but I think the main problem is global debt. I think the G8 are just going to have to get real and write off a certain percentage of debt worldwide - a percentage level that would allow things to start moving again without risking too much inflation.

Regarding the West, I knew you understood where I was coming from, but my comment regarding same is for general reading.

Regards!

antoobrien · 06-12-2012 2:45pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Yeah, I see you point, but I think the main problem is global debt. I think the G8 are just going to have to get real and write off a certain percentage of debt worldwide - a percentage level that would allow things to start moving again without risking too much inflation.

I don't see how a debt write off (I doubt it will happen) would effect the structural competitiveness issue, however I think that's an issue for the economy forum.

spacetweek · 06-12-2012 3:24pm

antoobrien wrote: »

There's one good reason why it shouldn't happen - all giving Dublin the underground will do is re-enforce the cost base and more likely cause it to rise again. This will negatively affect our competitiveness.

I'm not sure what you mean anto, but if public spending is to be as effective as possible, then investment should mainly go to the biggest wealth generators in the country. These are Dublin and the other cities.

The only way for jobs to be created in large numbers in isolated rural areas is socialist-style schemes where work is created by the government just to give people something to do. Cities, however (not just the Pale but all cities in Ireland) create jobs spontaneously - especially when they are encouraged to do so with infrastructural investment. Surely infrastructural investment in Dublin would reduce, not increase, the cost base there?

The Luas Connector is a tiny project that should have been part of the original plan and it is laughable that it has taken so long to come to fruition. The really big omission in Dublin is the Interconnector, which remains 100% essential even in the midst of a recession. We needed such a project 50 years ago. Money from state asset sales should be earmarked for this project too.

antoobrien · 06-12-2012 3:40pm

spacetweek wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean anto, but if public spending is to be as effective as possible, then investment should mainly go to the biggest wealth generators in the country. These are Dublin and the other cities.

Sorry 'tweek but the model of pumping money into Dublin is what got us lumped with the debts we have today. Unless Dublin is willing to take the hit on income to make the nation more competitive (not likely is it), then we need to change course.

Draining resources from the rest of the country to keep the cost of living in big towns at a certain level ignores the fact that many of the big towns can barely support the current populations - the water situation in Galway & Dublin being prime examples of this (Dublin is constantly claiming they're about to run out and Galway is overdue a boil notice).

Investing in other areas, thus making it practical for a company to not have to choose the likes of Waterford, Limerick, Galway, Cork or Dublin will help those places in the long run as it will help them get their houses in order by relieving the pressure on services.

funkhouser · 06-12-2012 3:53pm

Is it definitely the case this road will not be tolled?

antoobrien · 06-12-2012 4:00pm

funkhouser wrote: »

Is it definitely the case this road will not be tolled?

As has been stated before (a few times) on this thread, there is no mention of a toll in the project documentation (which there was on the M6 plans), so a change to include a toll plaza would require a change in planning permission and extra land to be purchased (the land for the existing plans has already been bought).

Aidan1 · 07-12-2012 1:59pm

Sorry 'tweek but the model of pumping money into Dublin is what got us lumped with the debts we have today.

Draining resources from the rest of the country to keep the cost of living in big towns at a certain level ignores the fact that many of the big towns can barely support the current populations

Categorically incorrect. In fact, if anything the reverse is the case. Resources are not drained from the rest of the country to keep the cost of living in cities down - rather resources are taken from the cities (mainly Dublin and Cork but Galway has come close in the past) to sustain the rest of the country (essentially reducing the standard of living for urban dwellers and transferring that wealth to rural dwellers)*. Until recently this was partially rebalanced by the fact that capital spend was focused on urban areas, but the cuts in capital budgets means that urban dwellers are being hit proportionately more but see far less benefit in terms of improved infrastructure.

Given that new jobs are far more likely to be urban based rather than rural the entire State needs those cities to go on growing and creating wealth to keep rural Ireland afloat. Supporting infrastructural investment in urban areas is therefore critical to the future economic wellbeing of the State. Simple really. This project (well, the M17 element of it anyways) and the Galway Outer Bypass are pretty good examples of the type of infrastructure that need to be delivered on (along with the usual bundle of public transport projects in Dublin and Cork).

Also, companies don't chose Dublin or Cork over a rural location in Ireland, they choose Dublin or Cork over another urban location in another country - large employers generally have little or no interest in locating anywhere outside a major city, and that is more the case the more advanced the industry.

I've linked to this paper on here before but it's worth repeating;
http://ideas.repec.org/p/esr/wpaper/wp195.html

lotusm · 07-12-2012 5:11pm

Got this email in just now ... nothing new...Sale of States assets before anything happens...

Dear XXX

I wish to refer further to your e-mail in relation to construction of the M17/M18.

As you may be aware, the construction, improvement and maintenance of individual national roads is a matter for the National Roads Authority (NRA) under the Roads Acts 1993 to 2007 in conjunction with the local authorities concerned.

The Gort-Tuam PPP project is one of a number of road development projects identified in the Government's Financial Stimulus Package. As the Investment and Capital Expenditure Framework 2012 - 2016 did not include a financial provision for this project, an additional multi-annual allocation is required to cover the Exchequer element of the project costs.

As the allocation of such funds is related to the planned sale of State assets, clarification has been sought from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on the timelines involved in the sale of assets. Once appropriate funding arrangements are put in place, the NRA will be in a position to prepare the project implementation schedule for the Gort-Tuam PPP.

Yours sincerely

?ui=2&ik=ad4e1a794f&view=att&th=13b75f5d19f71b28&attid=0.0.1&disp=emb&zw&atsh=1

?ui=2&ik=ad4e1a794f&view=att&th=13b75f5d19f71b28&attid=0.0.1&disp=emb&zw&atsh=1

_________________________________
Leo Varadkar T.D.
Minister for Transport, Tourism & Sport

spacetweek · 07-12-2012 10:26pm

In the July announcement they mentioned specific details like that the share from the stimulus plan that would be assigned to roads would be 60% and that the NRA had already purchased the land for the 17/18 and Enniscorthy/New Ross schemes. They might have jumped the gun there since their plan's funding is highly reliant on asset sales which don't have specific dates they're occurring on or specific monetary yields. That said I still think this scheme is in the bag if the transport minister would just speak up.

Chris_5339762 · 07-12-2012 10:36pm

Didn't the asset sale go to the health overspend?

08-12-2012 2:27pm

The proceeds from the 4G sale went to plug the hole in Health however there are other assets still on the cards to be sold (Aer Lingus, Coillte, Bord Gais etc)

M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

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