The next generation "NCF" Mobile phones will eliminate global cash.

Hehe I had this exact same idea 6 months ago in a pub when I found I was short of cash. Wouldn't terrorists just revert to clandestine physical transfers of cash? I guess bank robberies would go digital, but the elimination of the weapons variety would be welcome no?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

According to the book of revelation cash will disappear IE. "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark" A time will come when you will not have an option but to go cashless.

Oh my

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Plastic has its limitations ie not everyone carries around an ATM or a chip and pin device.

Phones also have their limitations, i.e. not everyone has one, nor does everywhere have reception.

According to the book of revelation cash will disappear IE. "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark"

That doesn't say that cash will disappear. It says that "the mark" will be needed to carry out commerce. Even if you subscribe to the literal truth of the bible (in which case I'm surprised you don't raise an outcry against the blatantly anti-Christian Zeitgeist content), there are no end of interpretations which would allow for cash-based commerce carried out by those with "the mark".

As with any plastic transaction this will also involve a third party with each purchase

Exactly. As with any plastic transaction. What is it not like? Thats right...cash, which doesn't involve a third party. What can it therefore not replace? Again, cash, because it doesn't offer the same possibilities.

try crossing the Westlink Toll Plaza today with a ball of cash :rolleyes:

Go into shop. Pay in cash for a car with a certain registration to be allowed to cross the Westlink.

Done.

Not too ****ing hard...certainly not worth rolling eyes.

(Additional note for those who can't think laterally....it doesn't have to be your car, or indeed a car that is in any way directly traceable to you.)

Alternately....here's a radical idea....choose not to take that route at all....just like you can choose not to use traceable payment methods.

I already stated my case.

Yes...a case thats full of holes you're apparently not interested in addressing.

Cards do not offer the flexibility to make personal one to one transactions.

Nor do these phones...they offer the flexibility to make transactions via a middleman less effort.

Cash is still the only way to make personal one-to-one transactions.

They cannot be topped op or "charged" without calling into a top up station, ATM or going on line.

Nor can cash be "topped up" or "charged" without doing similar.

On the other hand, my debit card doesn't need topping up.

So I have a choice...I can have (a degree of) anonymity as long as I'm willing to use a dispenser, or I can have traceability to get rid of it. This phone doesn't change those options.

NCF phones offers you the total flexibility as one would have with cash transactions.

It offers more flexibility, for a cost. It does not offer total flexibility. If I'm willing to pay the cost, I get the flexibility it offers. If I'm not willing to pay the cost, I choose some other option and don't get the flexibility. This makes it no different to any other option out there.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It says you "cannot buy or sell unless you have the mark" This would imply that there is no other way of carrying out any commercial transactions other than having the mark thus ruling out cash or other forms of commercial activity.

Let me try this again...

You have the mark and a wad of cash.
I have the mark and something you wish to buy.

You buy something from me, handing over a wad of cash.

This is 100% in compliance with your biblical prediction and is an entirely-cash-based transaction.

It still gets tracked and unless it is stolen the registered owner is accountable for all its movements.
...
For how long can you choose to make non traceable payments?

You asked me to go over the Westlink Toll today, using cash. Neither of these comments are relevant to my answer. The first has nothing to do with how I paid to go over the Westlink Toll (and becomes irrelevant if I'm not on a toll road).

The second has nothing to do with how I can pay today (which is what you asked).

Sure...if you want to argue that "try paying cash when you can't pay in cash any more", then it'll be impossible. Yes, it will be. The question we're discussing is whether or not this situation will arise, and if so when.

It seems that you're assuming that its going to come, and come soon, in order to help your claim that its going to come and come soon. That's hardly convincing logic.

Mate, your days are numbered.

Yes, yes. Again...that's what we're discussing. I know you believe this. I don't need you to repeat it ad nauseum as though it makes your case stronger.

To day you are "penalized" for not conforming to the way the system wants you to go by.

Alternately, you can be seen as being rewarded for conforming to options that are cheaper to run. People on the cheap options are those who've signed up to the systems that require the least costs to run. Now, you can argue that the additional cost isn't as high as is being passed on, and I'd agree....I think its a rip-off....but I still think its a trade-off of cost over convenience.

Buy a monthly bus-pass, and its cheaper than a month's worth of dailies. Does that mean that you're penalised for buying daily bus passes?

Oh, and you still don't have to go over the Westlink. Go around it, if you care that much.

As soon as they reach their target they will cut off all cash alternatives.

Speculation. Show me where its been done before?

I would give it two or three years time and you will not be able to board a TFL Tube train without a registered Oystercard. If you are not a London resident you will need positive identification to purchase a smart card.

Well, I'll tell you what....why don't we come back to this thread in two or three years time and see just how right or wrong you were?

People have been predicting the end of freedom....pretty much since they came up with the concept of freedom.

Those phones are in their infancy, they haven't even reached the shelves in the States and probably won't until mid 2009 and in Europe towards the end of the year. There is bound to be teething problems and limitations with them.

Careful now...almost sounds like you're offering reasons why the system can fail utterly without you actually being wrong.

You'd have to be bonkers to believe that cash will be around for ever as a means of carrying out transactions. It is really the last real "flaw" in the monetary system; simply because the banks make no money from cash transactions that take place outside a bank branch or ATM. Every electronic transaction that takes place incurs some sort of charge. Whether it's a shop paying 19c per laser transaction, or the charge for each direct debit. (By the way, when a retailer gives you cashback on Laser and it's recorded on your receipt he is charged again for the privilege of saving the banks time and effort. Sweet.)

Cheques are as good as gone. In my business, only a very few suppliers (small guys) will accept a cheque. Big companies will not open accounts without direct debits as it gives them the control required to ensure they are paid on time. (Barring bounces of course)

The elimination of cash will benefit the banks enormously. They can get rid of all those pesky tellers, and close bank branches. Inspections of their activities will be done on computer (maybe even by a computer). The risk of losing massive amounts in robberies will be gone and ensure that their stake in the insurance company they partly own is safer.

There are too many "normal business reasons" to eliminate cash for it to be with us forever. And looking at the influence the banks have over politicians it's quite obvious that it will happen. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but it will happen. Now, the only question is how do we transact electronically all the time?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Cash may no longer be legal tender and accepted.

Correct. Cash may be no longer be legal tender. Equally, cash may be legal tender. It can work either way. Thus - as I said - even if you ascribe to biblical prophecy, this passage does not require the end of cash in commercial transactions.

It has because westlink is now 100% cashless if you opt to pass it and it is relevant to the subject.

You can pay for your passage in cash, as I've already explained. If your definition of "cashless" includes "you can pay for your passage in cash", then thats fine.

I can't buy a bus-ticket by any means whatsoever on buses in Switzerland. I must do so before I'm on the bus. By your reasoning, this makes them cashless, even though I can buy my ticket by walking up to a machine, and feeding it coins.

Such a definition is worthless.

This whole thread topic is about the move away from cash

The thread seems to be about your claims for the elimination of cash, not the move away from it. I've never questioned that cash is less used...I've questioned the predictions of its demise.

and I couldn't give a damn if you want to hold on to the cash option today,

YOu call people sheeple for moving away from cash, but couldn't care a damn when someone wants to hold on to it.

So you want them to be sheeple? Or you just don't care either way, which is why you started a thread warning us all of what you see as a complete non-event?

You seem to be getting very worked up about being told that your fears aren't going to be realised....

of course you can use cash up until the point until it ceases to become legal tender.

And you've given no reason to believe that it will stop being legal tender. We agree that some people will move away from it for some stuff...and we apparently agree on the reasons why cash is good to have around. YOu just seem to have some empty insistence that sooner or later, for no apparent cause, these reasons will disappear.

This thread is miles off topic. It is about NFC Cell phones and its future in global financial transactions.

Oh, I thought it was about how these phones will eliminate cash, like it says in the topic.

They won't.

And for the record...NFC is only a communications standard. It can be used for all sorts of stuff. Want an easy way to pair two bluetooth devices which have NFC capability? Touch them off each other, hit accept, done. Its possibilities in advertising are also huge...give customers a "token" from an NFC-enabled poster, which they can then use in the shop. Electronic business cards, and hence all manner of social networking possibilities? There are a myriad of reasons why having NFC in a phone is a good thing. As for using it for commercial activity...that's certainly one of them, which they think they see a market for...but that's about as far as it goes.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

:rolleyes:
If they are a prepaid ticket that can be used for multiple journeys they are a cashless whether you paid for them by coins or ...

Gotcha. Cashless includes the use of cash.

:rolleyes: The Dictionary definition of a Cashless Society is: a society in which all bills and debits are paid by electronic money media, for example, bank and credit cards, direct debits, and online payments.

Gotcha. Cashless precludes use of cash.

So cashless means using cash to pay for stuff, as long as you don't use cash when paying for stuff?

The thread is about the trend to move away from cash (As in most of my threads on this subject) and the eventual demise of it which is inevitable.

The eventual demise of it is inevitable...in the same sense that the eventual demise of all life is inevitable.

The timeframe, however, is what is of interest.

You appear to be arguing that being offered more choice somehow equates to a master plan to remove choice any day now. I am arguing that this is a logical non-sequitor, and that cash is going to be around, and not only used as legal tender, but widely used as such for quite some time.

I am concerned about these devices because they are approaching whether you like it or not.

Well, yes. Clearly you are concerned. I'm just trying to get you to explain why they are concerning.

You argue that "more choice" means "they're trying to take choice away", without really explaining how you reach that conclusion.

You argue that something that has a myriad of potential uses must really be for one particular use. You then ignore that there are a myriad of possible ways that one particular system could be implemented, concentrating on one which you really don't like, then conclude that this one possible use is really the reason everything is being put in place.

You seem to ignore that even if your doomsday scenario never came to pass, NFC in phones will be / can be so useful that there's a whole market (and thus tons of profit) to be made from having it. Not having it will be ruling out market share (and thus profit) for no good reason.

It doesn't require any "cashless society" masterplan in order to explain why mobile manufacturers would want to integrate NFC...there's plenty of profit to make without that.

How is it that on so many topics, the reason for doing stuff is "profit", but then when profit is a perfectly simple motive to explain something, its not enough?

I doubt if you even bothered reading the links about them by the knowledge of them in your answers.

You can doubt whatever you like. Indeed, most of your argument seems to be based on a flat refusal to consider any possibilities other than the doomsday scenario that you've latched on to, so its hardly surprising that you'll choose to pick the option here that best suits you as well.....despite having no evidence to back this assumption up either.

You can even "touch" them off your docking home sound system and transfer your favorite MP3,use it as a remote to up the volume, they may even stream real time live TV at 20mhz per second,

Most of those uses you claim...NFC can only be used to "handshake". The actual connection will have to be w-lan, wifi, bluetooth, or other established standard, because NFC wouldn't have the bandwidth.

The significance of that distinction is that none of them rely on NFC. All it does is make the initial handshaking simpler...the actual data-transfer technologies. The examples I gave...all low-bandwidth, which don't require any other connection technology.

So well done...you've done a great job of showing that its you and not me who understands what NFC is about, based on how much both of us have read up on it. Clearly I'm the one lacking in understanding.

You haven't bothered to read the link or even research into the matter.

There you go with your assumptions again...forming your beliefs around what suits you, and then stating assumption as bald fact without argument (or evidnce) to support it.

:rolleyes:

By the way...these add a lot to your argument. You should use them more often. They really show that you're willing to make your case in civilised discussion.

Below are just a few random links backing my case that NFC is the way foreward with cashless transactions.

Really?

Lets have a look....

http://www.nearfield.org/2007/01/nokia-releases-first-mass-market-nfc-handset

Now the big question is the rollout of NFC services. NFC technology offers very little without a supporting infrastructure of regionally specific ticketing, payment and custom services. Will we see London Transport selling Oyster phones, or Tesco selling loyalty phones? Without services/applications like these, the handsets themselves are likely to be hard to sell.

Clearly saying that its the next big thing...what with asking whether or not it'll succeed like that.

http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/oyster-card-in-your-phone-coming-soon-462241

It is looking for handset manufacturers and retailers to sign up, and then we could see a similar system to that being used in Japan to conduct our everyday business.

No issues there, either.

http://www.gizmosforgeeks.com/2007/12/12/nokia-testing-nfc-phones-in-uk/

your phone may soon act as your wallet, particularly if Nokia’s current test is a success
...
Of course, if your phone can act as an Oyster card and the Oyster card can act as a virtual wallet, then so can your cell phone!

So again its dependant on a successful trial...and not only that, but they're saying the phone will have the same capabilities as something that's already widely in use. So these NFC phones aren't really bringing that much new to the table at all...other than integrating something many people already have and something else many people already have.

How is it, incidentally that the Oyster card wasn't predicted as the end of cash? Oh thats right...it was. And we still have cash.

:pac::pac::pac:

May I again commend you on your eloquence.