Fire Brigade Charges

angelfire9 · 20-06-2008 12:03am #1

Just wondering if anyone here knows what the story is with being charged for the fire brigade attending a house fire?
Unfortunately my house went up in smoke on monday morning so obviously i had to call 999 for fire service, my household insurance policy does not include charges for fire brigade (go figure!) So I'm just wondering what it might set me back?
As an aside i always thought they only charged for hoax call outs?

And before anyone says it i know i should be grateful that my daughter & I got out ok (himself was at work) but the consolation is minimal when you see the damage the fire caused

Dr_MaSoN · 20-06-2008 3:26am

angelfire9 wrote: »

Just wondering if anyone here knows what the story is with being charged for the fire brigade attending a house fire?
Unfortunately my house went up in smoke on monday morning so obviously i had to call 999 for fire service, my household insurance policy does not include charges for fire brigade (go figure!) So I'm just wondering what it might set me back?
As an aside i always thought they only charged for hoax call outs?

And before anyone says it i know i should be grateful that my daughter & I got out ok (himself was at work) but the consolation is minimal when you see the damage the fire caused

jesus angel, sorry to hear this.:(

Shield · 20-06-2008 3:44am

Me too. I hope your insurance pays out quickly so you can get your life back on track. Do you mind if I ask what the cause of the fire was?

angelfire9 · 20-06-2008 9:44am

psni wrote: »

Me too. I hope your insurance pays out quickly so you can get your life back on track. Do you mind if I ask what the cause of the fire was?

Electrical fault!

timmywex · 20-06-2008 10:39am

It depends on your area i suppose on charges and if they charge, different areas, different policies! Check your local councils website under the fire section perhaps and give the fire or enviroment section a ring and they should tell you!

I would imagine though, it would be a lot fairer to not charge you, in fairness, you did just lose your house!

Paulzx · 20-06-2008 1:50pm

As with everything else within the fire service in Ireland, charges are a mish mash of differences depending on whose personnel fiefdom within you happen to live. Different Councils make them up themselves and who is liable for charges.

I can only speak for what happens in Dublin. Up until about 5 years ago there was no charges whatsoever for calling out Dublin Fire Brigade. Dublin City Council decided ( against the wishes of DFB management ) to introduce charges but they were restricted to commercial users. There are still no charges to domestic houses irrestpective of the type of turnout.

As far as i'm aware there is a set initial charge of about 700 euro for a turnout to a commercial premises. For example, a fire alarm activation in an office block has a turnout of 2 motors, a TTl and a D.0. Fire alarm is investigated and found to be false they get a set bill. If there is a fire the bill can go up for additional appliances and the amount of time at scene. I have no idea if these bills are enforced or how they calculate them. I don't know what type of money is recovered each year.

Find out if they are penal on sending out bills for fire services in your area. If they are not, keep your head low and don't put your hand out to be slapped. You might get lucky!!

FGR · 20-06-2008 2:56pm

Many southern counties only charge for chimney fires in domestic cases however I don't know what the case is with Clare.

Give the county council a bell?

pjordan · 27-06-2008 5:22pm

The general charges (or costs - how much of this the local authority pass on to a consumer varies) for a standard fire incident is in the region of €500 per hour per appliance. Some Fire Authorities have a lesser charge of in the region of €200 for a Chimney Fire turnout and it would be argued by most Fire Authorities that these charges, if indeed they are passed on to the consumer, which is not always the case depending on your location, do not actually cover the real cost of turning out a crew of Fire fighters and a Fire tender. Hope this helps.

Paulzx · 27-06-2008 6:57pm

pjordan wrote: »

it would be argued by most Fire Authorities that these charges, if indeed they are passed on to the consumer, which is not always the case depending on your location, do not actually cover the real cost of turning out a crew of Fire fighters and a Fire tender. Hope this helps.

The function of a Fire Service is to provide an emergency service, not to justify its existance by covering its costs. Fire service charges are wrong and the fact that they vary depending on location is also wrong.

Can you imagine if the gardai were allowed levy charges for callouts? They are an emergency service just the same as the fire brigade yet there is no charge involved

Incidently, i wonder if the money collected from fire charges is ring fenced for use by the fire service itself. I doubt it, but maybe i'm wrong. Can anyone answer that for me?

timmywex · 27-06-2008 11:11pm

Cant answer you there paulzx, but sidetracking a bit, the ambulance service is like that in america a bit, charges etc, i hate the idea, i hope it never happens in ireland!

Eru · 28-06-2008 12:04am

Paulzx wrote: »

The function of a Fire Service is to provide an emergency service, not to justify its existance by covering its costs. Fire service charges are wrong and the fact that they vary depending on location is also wrong.

Can you imagine if the gardai were allowed levy charges for callouts? They are an emergency service just the same as the fire brigade yet there is no charge involved

Incidently, i wonder if the money collected from fire charges is ring fenced for use by the fire service itself. I doubt it, but maybe i'm wrong. Can anyone answer that for me?

So if my housae burnt down I would also be charged to have it put out? Talk about kivking someone when they are down.
Its a joke that after paying tax your still expected to fork out when you actually use the service

However I am in favour of penalising people that make bogus, hoax calls or just plain and simple waste emergency services time.

Oh, dont know about the fire service but when Gardai are given a state funeral (ie killed in the line of duty) the widow or family is handed a bill afterwards. Now theres another disgrace!

civdef · 28-06-2008 12:20am

Sample of what various policies are:

Charges for Fire Service

Fire Service Charges are an important element of the financing of the fire service. Donegal County Council charge €63.00 for a domestic call out. Commercial premises and road traffic collisions callouts are charged; the no. of hours brigade attended x no. of men. x rate per hour plus 30% for administration.

Fire Services Charges

Wicklow County Council has the following charges for calling out the Fire Service
Service Charges Chimney Fire €38.00
House Fire No Charge
Commercial Premises Actual cost in Wages plus 33%
Automatic Fire Alarms/
False Alarms Actual cost in Wages plus 33%
Road Traffic Accident Actual Cost in Wages plus 33%
(in the event of fatality, no charge is levied)
Cost divided between no. of cars involved

Usually Fire Brigade Charges are covered by an individuals House Insurance or Car Insurance.
For persons of limited means there is a waiver system for fire brigade call out charges.

Clare

Fire Brigade Attendance Fees – Types of Incident

Domestic Chimney Fires: €150.00

Other Domestic Incidents (Fires/Lockouts/Flooding/etc.): Actual Cost

Commercial/Agricultural Incidents (Fires/Lockouts/Flooding/etc.): Actual Cost

Road Traffic Incidents: Actual Cost

Automatic Fire Alarm Activations: Actual Cost

Malicious (Bogus) False Alarms (Charge to caller where caller is identified): Actual Cost

Forest/Gorse/Bog/etc Fire: Actual Cost

Burning of waste: Actual Cost

South Tipp

Fire Charges

* Chimney Fire: €100
* Other Fires/Incidents: €450 per hour/per station or actual cost of brigade whichever is lesser
* Max for House Fire €1700
* Commercial Fire - Full cost of the brigade plus 5%.

Where payment of these accounts would cause undue hardship a waiver scheme is in place.

The Fire Authority strongly advises that all property owners check that their insurance policy covers the cost of these charges.

Fyr.Fytr · 28-06-2008 1:08am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

So if my housae burnt down I would also be charged to have it put out? Talk about kivking someone when they are down.
Its a joke that after paying tax your still expected to fork out when you actually use the service

However I am in favour of penalising people that make bogus, hoax calls or just plain and simple waste emergency services time.

Oh, dont know about the fire service but when Gardai are given a state funeral (ie killed in the line of duty) the widow or family is handed a bill afterwards. Now theres another disgrace!

Couldnt agree with you and paul more.

It may just cost lives, people afraid to call incase of a charge.

Might aswell make 999 a 1550 number while they're at it

IP "My house is on fire, 123 fake street my family are inside"
Control "Ok sir, €50 up front the rest payable within 7 days cash or cheque only please"

News reporter "The minister for the enviroment today launched the first fire appliance fitted with "chip and pin" to allow people to pay using credit or debit cards on the spot, the service is to be rolled out nationwide"

Will go back in time, like the original insurance fire companys, youll have to put a plate to mark your house as having insurance, no plate fire appliance keeps driving

Handed a bill for a state funeral thats shocking, the height of disrespect too, imaging someone devoting thier life to service or god forbit killed in the line of duty then the sheer cheek of it to have to pay to give the deceased an honourable send off.

From civdefs posts agree with chimneys, afa's etc being charged but definatley not domestic fires no way, unsure about rta's but suppose if its down to driver error or breaking road traffic act etc

The whole idea of charges for emergency services doesnt sit well with me, maybe for MFA's, AFA's still though

Paulzx · 28-06-2008 6:42pm

"Wicklow County Council has the following charges for calling out the Fire Service
Service Charges Chimney Fire €38.00
House Fire No Charge
Commercial Premises Actual cost in Wages plus 33%
Automatic Fire Alarms/
False Alarms Actual cost in Wages plus 33%
Road Traffic Accident Actual Cost in Wages plus 33%
(in the event of fatality, no charge is levied)
Cost divided between no. of cars involved

Usually Fire Brigade Charges are covered by an individuals House Insurance or Car Insurance.
For persons of limited means there is a waiver system for fire brigade call out charges. "

This rule with rta charges sums up the stupidity of the situation. If you have the good sense to die in an rta ( i'm not belittling road deaths ) the council won't send you a bill. Fair play!!!. However, if you end up being a paraplegic sure you'll be well able to pay the bill. The idea that sure the insurance company will pay the bill is irrelevant. It is still morally wrong to charge people for an emergency service

The concept that charges deter people from making unneccassry calls is hugely flawed. I would argue that it is in fact the case that sometimes people are scared of making a neccasery call because of the fear of financial penalty. This especially applies to elderly people who are the most vulnerable.

Paulzx · 28-06-2008 6:56pm

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

The whole idea of charges for emergency services doesnt sit well with me, maybe for MFA's, AFA's still though

2 types generally of MFA's ( malicious false alarms aka bogies )

No. 1 - Young kid makes a call out of curiousty. Stupid and innocent enough to ring from the house phone. A quick call back to the house and the parents are told what has happened. You then here a crying kid in the background as Mammy slaps the arse of him. No more bogus calls. No charges required. Lesson learnt

No. 2 - Pond life scummer takes sim card from phone and dialls 999. 5 mins later 2 fire engines arrive outside elderly ladies house across the road for the fourth time that week. Send scummer a bill- don't think so. Even if you could track him do you think he's going to pay?

Moral of the story. The only people that are affected by fire charges are honest, decent memebers of society who can be compelled to pay and they are normally the people who ring with geniune cases

Billing for AFA's - automatic fire alarms, is the same. Law abiding companies recieve bills and have to pay for a service that their tax should cover

civdef · 28-06-2008 8:18pm

I seem to recall hearing someplace that the fire charges actually bring in very little money to the local authority, as a lot of them are waivered (or just ignored), and especially bearing in mind the costs of actually collecting the money.

In other countries, insurance companies have to contribute money annually to the fire services, on the principle that the fire service actions considerably reduce the losses accruing to the insurers. This would still get passed on to the consumer of course, but would probably be more equitable.

Fyr.Fytr · 28-06-2008 8:29pm

yes paul thats why i said maybe and the fact that it doesnt sit well with me.

Alot of firms have fire marshalls who investigate alarm then contact monitoring company to cancel the appliances and the d/o who are mobile, that makes sense as your mav quicker.

So it is an incentive for them to cancel you early and avoid the charges, granted it wont always work.

As for pond life, give them suspended sentences, from the highest tree of course.

Fyr.Fytr · 28-06-2008 8:31pm

Think its like the bin tags fiasco though, paying twice for one service. Wouldnt mind if it was going back in, but dfb still work off minimum staffing levels, fire cover is being reduced (granted swords went full time but malahide closed), equipment is dated (ttl in hq is from the 80's on a 00's body) it goes on and on

Our man in Havana · 29-06-2008 12:23pm

It would be like the Gardaí sending you a bill for catching the burglars that robbed your house. Simply unthinkable.

Laois CC sent a bill for €500 for a callout to a house fire. 1 unit 2 hours most of that was making sure the fire was out. They sent the bill to the lodger and not the owner of the house. Totally unjust.

Odysseus · 01-07-2008 2:03am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Oh, dont know about the fire service but when Gardai are given a state funeral (ie killed in the line of duty) the widow or family is handed a bill afterwards. Now theres another disgrace!

I'm not saying your incorrect, but I just find that so hard to believe. I never knew that, its appalling.

Eru · 01-07-2008 2:14am

Odysseus wrote: »

I'm not saying your incorrect, but I just find that so hard to believe. I never knew that, its appalling.

Have heard it more than once. Not saying the family pays for them all such as Charlies, etc but yes Gardai's family's have been handed bills and I know Ms McCabe always said she regreted allowing a state funeral.

Thank about it, how were the families of the 2 firemen in Bray treated? Not very well by all accounts.

Was Bertie at their funeral? Nope but he sent an aide to a funeral for someone that self overdosed on illegal drugs!

angelfire9 · 08-11-2008 1:11am

timmywex wrote: »

It depends on your area i suppose on charges and if they charge, different areas, different policies! Check your local councils website under the fire section perhaps and give the fire or enviroment section a ring and they should tell you!

I would imagine though, it would be a lot fairer to not charge you, in fairness, you did just lose your house!

Well, the bill has arrived, 4 and a half months after the fire, having waited over 30 minutes for the fire service to attend my house fire, they sent me a bill for €1900!! Nice or what! :eek:

Our man in Havana · 08-11-2008 1:20am

Send it to your insurance company. Don't worry about it.

angelfire9 · 08-11-2008 1:23am

Bond-007 wrote: »

Send it to your insurance company. Don't worry about it.

As previously stated my insurance cover does not include fire brigade charges but i'm not worrying about it haven't a notion of paying it, if i had recieved an efficent service i might consider it but waiting 30+ minutes for the fire brigade at 2.20am on a monday morning when i live 5 minutes from the fire station (even given that it is not a full time station i consider this an appalling response time) means i am not paying!

Our man in Havana · 08-11-2008 1:32am

There is very little chance of the county council chasing you for it. €1900 is excessive to say the least. I think they know that most of these bills are paid by insurance companies.

I know a friend of mine told them the service was useless and they dropped the bill.

TheNog · 08-11-2008 6:27pm

angelfire9 wrote: »

Well, the bill has arrived, 4 and a half months after the fire, having waited over 30 minutes for the fire service to attend my house fire, they sent me a bill for €1900!! Nice or what! :eek:

Ouch. That is a bit steep especially coming up to Christmas.

As for the 30 minutes wait - maybe on another call-out? If there was no other call-out I suppose they can only be as quick as the slowest person to get to the station.

alentejo · 08-11-2008 7:02pm

While I agree that fire charges are a clumsy way to generate income, local authorities must cover some of the cost to run the fire service.

This is either going to be covered by increased taxation or some kind of fiscal charge.

rates! If domestic rates were re-introduced, there would be demonstrations of a much larger scale as witnessed during the over 70's medical card fiasco!

Keith186 · 08-11-2008 7:54pm

Paulzx wrote: »

Law abiding companies recieve bills and have to pay for a service that their tax should cover

Companies only pay 12.5% tax which is very low so I don't see why companies should not have to pay for a service.

OP, €1,900 is taking the piss! You're right not to bother paying it.

Tip: Get FBC's added to your policy.

Our man in Havana · 08-11-2008 7:59pm

They are very unjust as many LAs don't charge at all.

angelfire9 · 09-11-2008 2:07am

TheNog wrote: »

Ouch. That is a bit steep especially coming up to Christmas.

As for the 30 minutes wait - maybe on another call-out? If there was no other call-out I suppose they can only be as quick as the slowest person to get to the station.

No other call out, a series of errors, almost a comedy of errors really caused the delay, radio not working in one engine, another engine failed to start i was just cursed on the night!

Eru · 09-11-2008 4:30pm

angelfire9 wrote: »

it haven't a notion of paying it, if i had recieved an efficent service i might consider it but waiting 30+ minutes for the fire brigade at 2.20am on a monday morning when i live 5 minutes from the fire station (even given that it is not a full time station i consider this an appalling response time) means i am not paying!

Then next time your house is burning down put it out yourself or call an alternative voluntary fire service who will drop everything including their family and rush to the scene in a more acceptable, customer service orientated time.

Fire Brigade Charges

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