Derry - Letterkenny - Sligo : Rail

Annatar · 06-03-2008 3:18pm #1

How long do we need to wait till they cop themselves on and stop ignoring the North West.

A nice bit of rail from Derry through Letterkenny to Sligo...and on to the Western rail corridor.....

People and even tourists.. could make a nice trip, a circle around the Island by rail.

....

dmeehan · 06-03-2008 3:21pm

:rolleyes:

loyatemu · 06-03-2008 5:50pm

Annatar wrote: »

People and even tourists.. could make a nice trip, a circle around the Island by rail.

well if thats not a good enough reason to spend €1 billion+ I don't know what is!

icdg · 06-03-2008 6:44pm

Population density simply is not there for a rail line of this nature. The WRC will be a white elephant north of Athenry as is, if it is built. That's judging on the not-really-massive numbers using the Limerick Junction-Waterford line and likewise Ennis-Limerick and Ballybrophy-Limerick via Nenagh.

Rail is a MASS transport medium. It needs high densities, otherwise its not really viable.

As for running to Derry, would need Stormont and NITHC agreement to implement. The Belfast-Derry rail line is not exactly full to the brim either, in fact the bus is faster and more popular.

DWCommuter · 06-03-2008 9:01pm

Annatar wrote: »

How long do we need to wait till they cop themselves on and stop ignoring the North West.

A nice bit of rail from Derry through Letterkenny to Sligo...and on to the Western rail corridor.....

People and even tourists.. could make a nice trip, a circle around the Island by rail.

....

Did you join just to post that?
Excuse me while I have a little chuckle. (Unless you are genuinely naieve. In that case I'll just snort and say no more.)

BendiBus · 06-03-2008 10:51pm

Annatar wrote: »

How long do we need to wait till they cop themselves on and stop ignoring the North West.

A nice bit of rail from Derry through Letterkenny to Sligo...and on to the Western rail corridor.....

People and even tourists.. could make a nice trip, a circle around the Island by rail.

....

Michael Palin did a trip from Derry to Kerry for the telly once. What a pity nobody had your idea before then

Nostradamus · 07-03-2008 2:53am

Annatar wrote: »

People and even tourists.. could make a nice trip, a circle around the Island by rail.

Why do you hate the people of the Midlands so much?

D.L.R. · 07-03-2008 10:30am

This idea comes up a lot. Some champion it, some scoff at it. But it should definitely be a long term goal to (re)connect all the major cities in Ireland by reasonably direct rail. Obviously at the moment there is a lot of emphasis on roadbuilding which I suppose inevitably means underinvestment in rail. Hopefully rail will go through a similar expansion boom in due course.

Looking ahead to when the motorways are largely complete, and coupled with the rising population density of Ireland, I imagine it will eventually become a viable prospect to link Derry to Sligo by rail, amongst other routes. But many things have to happen before that, such as the interconnector tunnel, a successful western rail corridor, Cork commuter rail, 4-tracking at Kildare, etc.

We basically have a Victorian rail network as our base to work off, so realistically it must be modernised before its expanded further.

loyatemu · 07-03-2008 11:22am

D.L.R. wrote: »

I imagine it will eventually become a viable prospect to link Derry to Sligo by rail, amongst other routes. But many things have to happen before that

the main thing that would have to happen would be for both towns to grow in size by a factor of at least 5. for that to happen you're probably talking about at least 50 years so its not worth even discussing now.

popebenny16 · 07-03-2008 12:52pm

I think it's a runner myself. And yes, given the downturn in the economy, spending money and investing in infrastrure is a proven method of working through a slump.

Thumbs up!!!

serfboard · 07-03-2008 1:20pm

icdg wrote: »

The Belfast-Derry rail line is not exactly full to the brim either, in fact the bus is faster and more popular.

Presumably the bus is more popular because it is faster, instead of going all around the world for sport. (http://www.translink.co.uk/present/nir/belfast-londonderrymf1.pdf)

icdg wrote: »

Rail is a MASS transport medium. It needs high densities, otherwise its not really viable.

Which proves the point really. Belfast and Derry do have the population densities needed to sustain mass/rail transport, but unfortunately they are served by the most round-about rail system possible (except if it went via Kerry

)

Nostradamus · 07-03-2008 1:33pm

popebenny16 wrote: »

I think it's a runner myself. And yes, given the downturn in the economy, spending money and investing in infrastrure is a proven method of working through a slump.

Thumbs up!!!

As long as it's part of a 5-year plan overseen by the Glenties Cute Hoor Collective marching behind a bagpiper holding up banners reading "Every New Yard of Luas is Another Knife in the Heart of the Children of Donegal"

Oh wait, I think that was the main story on TG4 last night. Nevermind.

loyatemu · 07-03-2008 3:13pm

well if we're going to indulge in wild fantasy, I'd say long term the thing to do is build a line (TGV maybe? or MagLev?!) from Dublin to Derry via Enniskillen with a spur to Sligo. Could be continued onto Letterkenny just to keep the Donegalites happy.

popebenny16 · 07-03-2008 3:59pm

I'm actually quite serious about this.

there are 8000 lads who are mostly form the construction sector new on the Dole this month.

I remember looking at the Dole queues in the 80's in Ballymun and all the skills and manpower lined up every week. They all got jobs in the 90's, because someone up top copped on. Are we about to allow such value to trickle away on the boat and the plane once more?

You build your way out of recission. Those 8000 lads could rebuild the Nenagh line, for example, they could quad track Drougeda to Howth Junction and allow a proper service Dublin to Belfast. God knows, they could even build the interconnector - or several of them.

Instead, they'll sod off to London to build their railways for the Olympics.

Annatar · 07-03-2008 4:43pm

Without viable transportation links all along the west (inc Power and broadband infrastructure) the entire area will slowly decline. Ermmmm decline further....

Nothing against the midlands ... just The Pale

Letterkenny has roughly the same population as Sligo.... no enough?! then lets scrap all rail lines except for say Galway to Dublin and back down to Cork.

Connecting Derry City to the South by rail via Letterkenny/Sligo opens up alot more possibilities.
A quick guesstimate a year ago I got on this was roughly 400 mil for track, lines rolling stock and stations.
Cheap at twice the price

Calina · 07-03-2008 4:47pm

One of the things which irritates me about Ireland is the lack of planning for the future and a tendency to plan for the present.

I think one of the problems is a lack of vision inherent in the country. You *could* argue in favour of building better rail connections from Sligo to Derry on the grounds that it would form part of a comprehensive national planning strategy. We know the last time they tried to do this in the country it was a bit messy but in principle it's not outlandish to do the "Build and They Will Come" bit too.

After the poison that was the WRC discussions I'm unwilling to get too caught up on this but I would be warying of dismissing this out of hand as being unnecessary until it's necessary per se. I was living in Brussels when Luas was being discussed and the overwhelming impression that I got from this is that we have a tendency not to plan for the future but to do as little as we can get away with doing now.

I am disappointed that major infrastructure projects in Ireland seem to spend so long in planning that they are practically out of date by the time they get done.

You could make a case for putting in some light local rail not unlike the French TER network in the areas concerned pending engineering considerations. Unfortunately, I suspect it will never happen.

Calina · 07-03-2008 4:51pm

Annatar wrote: »

Connecting Derry City to the South by rail via Letterkenny/Sligo opens up alot more possibilities.
A quick guesstimate a year ago I got on this was roughly 400 mil for track, lines rolling stock and stations.
Cheap at twice the price

You might see it that way but what sort of track, what sort of lines, what sort of rolling stock, who's running the system?

I'm always nervous of guesstimates. Don't get me wrong - in principle I think it's an interesting idea and full of possibilities but I don't believe it should be seen in isolation but as part of a greater scheme to potentially reverse the damage caused by the run to Dublin causing massive armies of commuters, etc. You know that to get jobs to places like Letterkenny and even Cork, you need infrastructure that just isn't there. I have listened to MDs of companies in Cork complain bitterly that they can't get a transatlantic link into Cork Airport, for example and I know that there are major issues relating to comms provisions.

What popebenny16 says about skills going to waste is interesting too. The assumption is that they are from construction; my view is that they are from residential. It may not be immediately appropriate to shift them to a major infrastructure project.

Annatar · 07-03-2008 4:55pm

@Calina,
yeah It would be lovely to get a politician with an all island vision of what could be, and the drive mixed with persuasiveness to get it done.

Why pour all investment into the eastcoast and then whine about it taking 20 million hours to get to work in the morning on the same road etc that everyother poor unfortunate uses

Annatar · 07-03-2008 4:59pm

Calina wrote: »

You might see it that way but what sort of track, what sort of lines, what sort of rolling stock, who's running the system?
...
I'm always nervous of guesstimates.
...

It was taken from the upper end of existing expenditure on opening new track in Co Sligo per mile etc.... if I remember correctly.

Annatar · 07-03-2008 5:01pm

But yeah.... guesstimates are notoriously unreliable. Still! double it and its still pretty much ok.
The amount of money to be sourced from crossborder funds, EU and NI/UK
not to mention a begging bowl to the US....

Calina · 07-03-2008 5:01pm

Dublin is problematic in that it has here-and-now problems which need to be addressed. Unfortunately, there is no clear direction on how best to address them and as such things will get worse for a while I think.

Where I have a major problem is that the "them and us" approach to funding and planning between Dublin and the regions is highly divisive as can already been seen in this thread. Funding will need to go into Dublin the short term in order to sort out some of the immediate problems. A northwestern rail link is a long term plan.

Annatar · 07-03-2008 5:16pm

Maybe "Goats Dont Shave" had the right idea.

1 Big Wall.... (will help the construction industry)
Multiple casinos.... (again more work for construction industry, plus hospitality sector)
Chicken ranches.... (Boost to Farming)

...

..

Annatar · 07-03-2008 5:21pm

Seriously, Donegal needs some support! Harney blatently ignored it when it came to employment and now is twisting the scalpel when it comes to health.

We need infrastructure to get employment rolling.

Otherwise whats the point of being part of the Republic?

I mean... We'd be better of as the Republic of Tir Chonnail*, Join the EU, get direct funding from there.

Hell, make a deal with the US for a couple of billion... lease Lough Swilly out as a deep sea navy port.

Very favourable terms to US industries.

*Kingdom of Tir Chonnail either.... as longs its me thats ruler

Calina · 07-03-2008 5:34pm

Okay,

here I have a problem. You cannot suggest a major infrastructure project such as you put forward above and then say it's all about one region which is underpopulated and under-resourced.

While there is a requirement for improved infrastructure, it and its benefits cannot be seen in isolation from the rest of the country. The vision you suggest is defective in many ways in that it is dependent on hand-outs, suggests nothing productive which the region needs to sell; depending on something like a US naval base is non-sustainable.

If you came up and said that improved comms structures would enable you to create a wealth generating industry such as software or financial trading rather than looking for what are effectively government hand outs, you'd have a better chance of progress.

You stand a better chance of getting industry in if you focus like Cork did with the pharmas. This "We need something" is completely counterproductive and seen in that light, if you can't explain how improved infrastructure such as a rail link to Sligo could be leveraged for jobs/wealth creation then you're missing some building blocks.

Polar101 · 07-03-2008 6:32pm

Calina wrote: »

One of the things which irritates me about Ireland is the lack of planning for the future and a tendency to plan for the present.

Funny, I find this to be completely the opposite. There is always some vague long term plan (especially in the infrastructure), but eventually everything gets delayed and put forward.

The problem with long-term strategy planning is pretty obvious - I'll draw up a national development plan for, say, 2045, saying that in 2045 this and that will be developed like this. It's going to sound great, and not many people would disagree. It might not have an awful lot to do with reality, though.

After reading these boards for a few months, I've always wondered how people are always unhappy with the current infrastructure, but then find most plans to improve it wrong or unnecessary - unless it's something that directly affects their daily life. Each to their own, I guess.

As for the northwest, clearly developing a "remote" corner of this small island would have some benefits that would mean it's not a complete waste..

ga2re2t · 07-03-2008 8:13pm

Annatar, try thinking in baby steps. We all have crazy ideas now and then but we usually realise that they're crazy an so we hold back a little bit. Before posting something like what you posted, step back and try to see things from a national perspective (and not a "I want one cos everyone has one" approach) and also from a realistic perspective. Did you ever think about putting together a few facts and figures. It only takes about 10 minutes Googling and Wikipedia-ing to come up with stuff:
Populations:
Derry 91,000
Letterkenny 18,000
Ballybofey 4,000 (generously rounded up)
Donegal town 2,500
Sligo 20,000

Distances
Derry - Letterkenny: 30 km
Letterkenny - Ballybofey: 21 km
Ballybofey - Donegal: 30 km (but across rugged terrain)
Donegal - Sligo: 60 km
Total: about 150 km

Co. Donegal has a large population of about 150,000, but going on the figures above it must be very spread out into rural housing and villages? A Letterkenny town councillor has suggested planning for a population of 50,000 by 2020 (!!!?).

A Derry-Letterkenny link will almost certainly make sense someday, but that day won't be for another 15 odd years or so. Letterkenny-Sligo will never, in our lifetime anyways, make sense. The best south County Donegal can hope for is increased investment in the Dublin-Sligo line, and this is where your efforts in lobbying and making suggestions should probably lie for the next 10 years. All other ideas will just fall on deaf ears.

To put things into context for you, Tallaght in south County Dublin has a population of about 65,000 and yet does not have a decent rail link (don't even dare suggest that the Luas is a decent rail link!). The same goes for Navan (25,000). The most important conference destination in Ireland is Killarney (17,000) and it has a sh**te rail service.

dermo88 · 07-03-2008 10:53pm

Take your pick, but while I think its a pie in the sky idea, I would never be building it by that route. Oh and BTW, I despise the Western Rail corridor to the point that if it is built north of Athenry....before Navan gets a rail link, I will give up any hope that Ireland can ever be run properly for the benefits of all, instead of a bunch of inbreeds in the depths of Mayo.

LOGICALLY....take the direct route

Derry-Letterkenny is a branch line...a commuter route

Derry-Strabane-Omagh-Monaghan-Navan-Dublin....thats what should have been built in the 1850's-1900's era, but it was'nt built, its not there, and it never will be.

Theres plenty of stuff written on this. Nice topic. Thats all it is, a nice topic. Nice idea, but the idea of a European Navy Aircraft Carrier called "Eire" is also just that. A nice idea.

Schuhart · 08-03-2008 2:12pm

Calina wrote: »

One of the things which irritates me about Ireland is the lack of planning for the future and a tendency to plan for the present.

I actually don’t think this catches what we do. There is planning for the future, and capacity is put in place in advance of demand. The problem is more that the capacity is not put in place where demand can or will occur.

Calina wrote: »

I have listened to MDs of companies in Cork complain bitterly that they can't get a transatlantic link into Cork Airport

And hopefully they appreciate that the lack of a transatlantic link into Cork Airport isn’t because of a lack of investment in regional airports or, indeed, the lack of political will historically in making what can only be described as manic efforts to prevent transatlantic services going to Dublin.

Before the last election, enough money was thrown at the non-ex-Aer Rianta airports (apologies on the awkward phrase) to leave Cork Airport debt free, if that was the policy priority. However, the actual priority was to fund airports that, combined, would serve fewer passengers than Cork and have less potential to contribute to meaningful regional development.

If Knock Airport could, however briefly, hold on to a transatlantic service, then we can only imagine the potential in Cork. So what’s Cork doing with an airport on top of a hill with a shorter runway than Knock’s? Its not because of a lack of planning form the future, and more because of a lack of any substantial thinking about what planning for the future means. The ‘build it and they will come’ philosophy heads off into a void where putting any old thing anywhere is justified as a visionary step

Calina wrote: »

This "We need something" is completely counterproductive and seen in that light, if you can't explain how improved infrastructure such as a rail link to Sligo could be leveraged for jobs/wealth creation then you're missing some building blocks.

Spot on and this is exactly what those of us who give out about ‘this sort of thing’ are saying. Yet, when we intervene in discussions on things like the WRC the response we tend to get is ‘you want everything in Dublin’ which doesn’t actually address the concerns we are raising. You have put your finger on it here. Jobs are not a commodity produced in some factory in Idaho, that just need to be transported to Donegal. If jobs dry up in Donegal, its not because some Minister needs to drive a truckload of jobs into that county without delay.

An amount of the problem is in this county mindset. I don’t know why, in particular, we should base our identities around the administrative divisions we inherited from the British or expect them to continue to make sense in the 21st century. But we do, and that leads to this kind of shapeless ‘rail for Donegal’ idea. Would it do any good? Probably not, as if rail was really a magnet for development we’d surely see all kinds of things gravitating towards the underused rail lines in Mayo and Sligo.

But its in Donegal, I’m in Donegal, any old thing for Donegal. A US naval base for Donegal.

(Which. if I can crave an indulgence, reminds me of the old rhyme

My sister sells condoms to sailors,
My dad pricks them all with a pin,
My mother performs the abortions,
Oh, God, how the money pours in.)

gjim · 08-03-2008 6:18pm

You build your way out of recission.

No you can not. The Japanese, for example, have been trying to do this for the last 15 years and all they've achieved is to increase their debt to GDP ratio to 180% having filled the country with barely used infrastructure which is costing a fortune to maintain. Beautifully constructed bridges and roads in underpopulated areas do not boost an economy.

To be honest the kind of "we get nothing" bleating from many leaders, politicians and the public in places like Donegal, Mayo and some of the border counties demonstrate such a fundamental misunderstanding of basic economics that it's hardly surprising that they are relatively poor.

Championing rent seeking behaviour is impoverishing. The regional policy equivalent of sitting with a cup beside an ATM begging for spare change is a less than zero-sum exercise and is not the way to create wealth for a region.

Nostradamus · 08-03-2008 6:26pm

Schuhart wrote: »

I don’t know why, in particular, we should base our identities around the administrative divisions we inherited from the British or expect them to continue to make sense in the 21st century.

The GAA. The 'county colours' mindset has done more to destroy the Irish national Irish identity of "one nation - one people - working together" more so than any other factor. It is mainly rooted in that.

And this mindset is taken to extremist levels in places like Donegal. Being Irish means nothing to most of them up there.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-03-2008 8:18pm

Annatar wrote: »

Otherwise whats the point of being part of the Republic?

I mean... We'd be better of as the Republic of Tir Chonnail*, Join the EU, get direct funding from there.

Tempting idea. Of course it just makes the idea of spending Dublin taxes in Dublin even more appealing...

Nostradamus wrote:

The 'county colours' mindset has done more to destroy the Irish national Irish identity of "one nation - one people - working together" more so than any other factor. It is mainly rooted in that.

+1.

And this mindset is taken to extremist levels in places like Donegal. Being Irish means nothing to most of them up there.

Is that why half the cars there have yellow plates? :rolleyes:

gjim, nail on head, nail on head.

Derry - Letterkenny - Sligo : Rail

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