Boards.ie

watty · 12-02-2008, 16:40

DVB-h makes more sense for Mobile Digital Radio now.
Also without a BBC mux and very portable (DVB-h is with low battery consumption, and DAB is not), without the lower battery consumption and better quality of DVB-h audio only, you are better with Satellite. Better choice and Better quality and all the BBC.

You can get phones with DVB-h and/or FM-VHF. Not with DAB.
DAB is obsolete technology and Digital Radio was implemented too early.

we are NOT any longer part oF Sterling Area or UK. We are more Eurpean than the British. Europe is not irrelevant. Europe if it does Digital Mobile Radio at all will use space on the DVB-h system.

Radio|Man · 12-02-2008, 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by watty

DVB-h makes more sense for Mobile Digital Radio now.
Also without a BBC mux and very portable (DVB-h is with low battery consumption, and DAB is not), without the lower battery consumption and better quality of DVB-h audio only, you are better with Satellite. Better choice and Better quality and all the BBC.

You can get phones with DVB-h and/or FM-VHF. Not with DAB.
DAB is obsolete technology and Digital Radio was implemented too early.

we are NOT any longer part oF Sterling Area or UK. We are more Eurpean than the British. Europe is not irrelevant. Europe if it does Digital Mobile Radio at all will use space on the DVB-h system.

Again , I ask you to inform me of the format that has gained even half the ground that dab has, with the same portability. iPod now has a dab add on, battery consumption is getting better as is the hardware responsible for compression and transmission. Dab is by no means perfect, yet, but it is certainly the front runner for digital transmission.

Do you think that radio will be the only form of media using analog in the future?

At some stage, a decision has to be made to progress with this argument. Ireland is still only at trial stages with dab, there has been no official launch of any dab services and as a result, you can't expect there to be extensive programming on any of the digital only channels. Perhaps when/if dab is officially launched here, we will see an escalation of programming on dab but until then, music with no news or ads will do me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by watty

We are NOT any longer part oF Sterling Area or UK.

Maybe so, but why then are we arguing over the closure of MW in this day and age ? Like it or not, if we were not part of a sterling area we would be totally within our rights to broadcast to the North. I understand what you are saying but most domestic goods are now sold through Tesco, Argos,Dixons, Currys, PC World etc. These chains are seeing dab sell in the UK and from a product point of view, dab radios are selling well. All they need do is stock them on Irish shelves and already units are selling here, in fact, most of the places I went to were SOLD OUT over Christmas. Marks and Spencers Dundrum even had dab radios for sale!

Dvb-H had been on trial here also with little or no interest in the technology by the test group. O2 are scrapping the trial with a view to looking at whatever else may be available through the Nokia endeavour to broadcast TV to mobiles. But the point you miss here is that there is no chance of an amalgamation between a Dvb-H network and a kitchen/household radio. Whatever the future format is, it has to be universal.

Dab is certainly NOT obsolete technology. 19.5% of the adult population in the UK now live in a dab household. Sales have passed the five million mark. That's 5000,000 !

Yes I admit that perhaps we should be waiting for dab+, but it makes no difference. All dab+ will offer is better quality, something dab is somewhat short of if a quantity of stations are to exist on a mux. Most dab receivers now on sale are either upgradable or will be backwards compatible.

Get off the fence and walk around a while, all that sitting has made your blood fall to your toes !

watty · 13-02-2008, 10:00

The DVB-h was a closed TV trial. Also O2 was looking at the wrong things. DVB-h is more interesting for Radio, though is not bad even on a 10" kitchen or Bedside TV (I've seen such a thing, not to be confused with the 7" and 10" portable DVB-t LCD TVs).

DVB-h and DRM can use the better than MP3, ACC codec. DAB is using MP2 codec. Fine at 256k Stereo. Rubbish at the typically used 128k. I use 256K MP3 on my phone media player.

DAB is only a set from FM-VHF in terms of choice. DAB sets only selling because they are on shelf. More products are being bought online. Hence Virgin selling their record stores and Dixions closed in UK.

Worldwide the future of Digital Radio is not DAB. Worldspace is starting new services for Europe, UK and Ireland too. Eutelsat and Astra are testing portable/Mobile/car radio services.

DAB was launched too soon. In UK it has too many channels, reducing quality. In Ireland it has too few and no compelling reason to change.

DAB radios are selling for same reason as Vista. Because they are there. Recently in all walks the UK has lost the Plot. I'd rather take notice of what Germany, Scandinavia, Italy are doing.

DVB-h texas chip set is lower power and cheaper than DAB will ever be and can cheaply be put in anything. The receiver is only on for 1/10th of the time as the OFDM transmission uses timeslots. One timeslot can have maybe 10 to 20 radio stations. That's 1/10th of one MUX! The texas chip is used in Italian receivers, mostly Mobile phones made by LG, Nokia and possibly ZTE (They do have 3g/DVB-h handset). I think due to tiny world wide adoption of DAB and very widespread DRM adoption (SW,MW and LW but still a couple of years away consumer wise) and wide adoption of DVB-h outside USA. there will be little chip development going forward on DAB. The system does not lend itself to kind of very low power consumption (weeks on lithium or 4 x AA Alkaline NOW!) that DVB-h is designed for.

**RTÉ Pulse: Dave** · 13-02-2008, 16:37

Just did a re-scan. Theres a new DAB service called RTE xxxxx carrying dance music and the DLS is reading 'music for the millenium generation' Hmmmmmmmm where have I heard that before eh?

Ill throw my hat in the ring and hazard that RTE are adding a dance service to the MUX?

White Horse · 13-02-2008, 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DPC

Just did a re-scan. Theres a new DAB service called RTE xxxxx carrying a dance music loop and the DLS is reading 'music for the millenium generation' Hmmmmmmmm where have I heard that before eh?

Ill throw my hat in the ring and hazard that RTE are adding a dance service to the MUX?

Is this what they think people want. More looped music?

Radio|Man · 13-02-2008, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by watty

The DVB-h was a closed TV trial. Also O2 was looking at the wrong things. DVB-h is more interesting for Radio, though is not bad even on a 10" kitchen or Bedside TV (I've seen such a thing, not to be confused with the 7" and 10" portable DVB-t LCD TVs).

DVB-h and DRM can use the better than MP3, ACC codec. DAB is using MP2 codec. Fine at 256k Stereo. Rubbish at the typically used 128k. I use 256K MP3 on my phone media player.

DAB is only a set from FM-VHF in terms of choice. DAB sets only selling because they are on shelf. More products are being bought online. Hence Virgin selling their record stores and Dixions closed in UK.

Worldwide the future of Digital Radio is not DAB. Worldspace is starting new services for Europe, UK and Ireland too. Eutelsat and Astra are testing portable/Mobile/car radio services.

DAB was launched too soon. In UK it has too many channels, reducing quality. In Ireland it has too few and no compelling reason to change.

DAB radios are selling for same reason as Vista. Because they are there. Recently in all walks the UK has lost the Plot. I'd rather take notice of what Germany, Scandinavia, Italy are doing.

DVB-h texas chip set is lower power and cheaper than DAB will ever be and can cheaply be put in anything. The receiver is only on for 1/10th of the time as the OFDM transmission uses timeslots. One timeslot can have maybe 10 to 20 radio stations. That's 1/10th of one MUX! The texas chip is used in Italian receivers, mostly Mobile phones made by LG, Nokia and possibly ZTE (They do have 3g/DVB-h handset). I think due to tiny world wide adoption of DAB and very widespread DRM adoption (SW,MW and LW but still a couple of years away consumer wise) and wide adoption of DVB-h outside USA. there will be little chip development going forward on DAB. The system does not lend itself to kind of very low power consumption (weeks on lithium or 4 x AA Alkaline NOW!) that DVB-h is designed for.

Right, so a National DVB-H network is what Irish radio needs.

You seem to be missing the point, there is no relationship between radio makers and DVB-H. It is seen as a medium for mobile TV transmission, not for kitchen radio and no development has taken place in this regard.

So you are telling me that future radio will only be available via mobile handsets ?

At this point I think its best I leave the room for a while.

DVB-H !!! ffs !

david23 · 13-02-2008, 18:52

DVB-H will NOT be a universal standard for digital radio across Europe.

France has opted for DMB and other countries (including Germany, Italy & Sweden) have opted for DAB+. Both of these use the AAC/AAC+ codec.

Some radio stations will piggy-back on national DVB-H muxes when mobile TV services launch but it isn't suitable for local radio because each DVB-H mux takes up about three times the bandwidth of a DAB/DMB mux, making it very inefficient when used for a patchwork of local licences.

Satellite radio will require a subscription so it won't be a threat to terrestrial radio.

MYOB · 13-02-2008, 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DPC

Just did a re-scan. Theres a new DAB service called RTE xxxxx carrying dance music and the DLS is reading 'music for the millenium generation' Hmmmmmmmm where have I heard that before eh?

Ill throw my hat in the ring and hazard that RTE are adding a dance service to the MUX?

Was coming on here to mention that. What service has been removed for it? The mux was full, and the receiver I've got in this room here has a woeful interface (Irish engineered, at that, oh dear...).

Actually I can't find the RTE 1 AM feed. Which might be because the want us to forget RTE 1 AM exists

**RTÉ Pulse: Dave** · 13-02-2008, 23:11

The mux wasnt full, it seems they are now getting clever with CU usage! the AM service now only comes on for times when their is alternative content on AM such as sports or mass so the CU's are not wasted on a full am DAB service. Tune in on a saturday at 1400 for the sports split to see how it works.
Its all quite clever really!

MYOB · 14-02-2008, 04:54

It always did that - however, there was a placeholder present at all times - now there isn't.

They also weren't doing anything with the spare CUs at the time except transmitting packbits - unlike the BBCs "lets allocate it to Radio 3" option.

Foggy43 · 14-02-2008, 12:49

Are you talking about something like we have in the UK.

We have BBC Radio 5 with 2 sometimes 3 sub channels depending on how intense the sporting calendar is. Last Saturday we had the Main Radio 5 Live doing the around the grounds, one sub channel doing France v Ireland and the another doing Sunderland v Wigan. Last year when Wimbledon was on there was several channels covering the main courts. These channels are only active when required.

I wonder will RTE follow an example we have here. A station closed down so someone got 2 microphones, stereo of course, and put the in a wooded area. The pick up birds of the feathered variety singing. So now we have 'Birdsong' 24 hours a day! Funny thing is that there was a programe recently saying wood pigeons were moving in to built up areas. Now they have there own radio station

**RTÉ Pulse: Dave** · 14-02-2008, 14:55

Hi Foggy,
Yes this is exactly what they are doing with Radio 1 Extra. Currently there is only one sub carrier of radio 1 that comes on Saturday at 1358 to 1758 for sport and at 0958 to 1132 for the mass and again at 1358 to 1758 for sunday sport.

**RTÉ Pulse: Dave** · 14-02-2008, 14:57

Hi Foggy,
Yes this is exactly what they are doing with Radio 1 Extra. Currently there is only one sub carrier of radio 1 that comes on Saturday at 1358 to 1758 for sport and at 0958 to 1132 for the mass and again at 1358 to 1758 for sunday sport.

**marclt** · 15-02-2008, 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by DPC

Hi Foggy,
Yes this is exactly what they are doing with Radio 1 Extra. Currently there is only one sub carrier of radio 1 that comes on Saturday at 1358 to 1758 for sport and at 0958 to 1132 for the mass and again at 1358 to 1758 for sunday sport.

Its going to be a little confusing if there is no placeholder there whilst the service isn't active. At least BBC5live extra has an audio loop advising of forthcoming broadcasts... quite well produced too really!

**RTÉ Pulse: Dave** · 15-02-2008, 12:29

Hi foggy,
Most receivers build up a database of stations that they ever received. This information is always carried in the FIC. The trouble with putting out an extreemly low kilobit rate audio loop is that its a total waste of CU's and many receivers wont pick up anything below 64k or above 192k for that matter.

13-02-2008, 16:37	#679
RTÉ Pulse: Dave Verified representative Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 39 Adverts \| Friends	Just did a re-scan. Theres a new DAB service called RTE xxxxx carrying dance music and the DLS is reading 'music for the millenium generation' Hmmmmmmmm where have I heard that before eh? Ill throw my hat in the ring and hazard that RTE are adding a dance service to the MUX? Last edited by RTÉ Pulse: Dave; 13-02-2008 at 16:45.

13-02-2008, 18:52	#682
david23 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 59 Adverts \| Friends	DVB-H will NOT be a universal standard for digital radio across Europe. France has opted for DMB and other countries (including Germany, Italy & Sweden) have opted for DAB+. Both of these use the AAC/AAC+ codec. Some radio stations will piggy-back on national DVB-H muxes when mobile TV services launch but it isn't suitable for local radio because each DVB-H mux takes up about three times the bandwidth of a DAB/DMB mux, making it very inefficient when used for a patchwork of local licences. Satellite radio will require a subscription so it won't be a threat to terrestrial radio. Last edited by david23; 13-02-2008 at 18:59.

14-02-2008, 04:54	#685
MYOB Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Maynooth Posts: 17,043 Adverts \| Friends	It always did that - however, there was a placeholder present at all times - now there isn't. They also weren't doing anything with the spare CUs at the time except transmitting packbits - unlike the BBCs "lets allocate it to Radio 3" option. Last edited by MYOB; 14-02-2008 at 04:56.

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12-02-2008, 16:40	#676
watty Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: The Research Station Posts: 30,469 Adverts \| Friends	DVB-h makes more sense for Mobile Digital Radio now. Also without a BBC mux and very portable (DVB-h is with low battery consumption, and DAB is not), without the lower battery consumption and better quality of DVB-h audio only, you are better with Satellite. Better choice and Better quality and all the BBC. You can get phones with DVB-h and/or FM-VHF. Not with DAB. DAB is obsolete technology and Digital Radio was implemented too early. we are NOT any longer part oF Sterling Area or UK. We are more Eurpean than the British. Europe is not irrelevant. Europe if it does Digital Mobile Radio at all will use space on the DVB-h system.

13-02-2008, 10:00	#678
watty Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: The Research Station Posts: 30,469 Adverts \| Friends	The DVB-h was a closed TV trial. Also O2 was looking at the wrong things. DVB-h is more interesting for Radio, though is not bad even on a 10" kitchen or Bedside TV (I've seen such a thing, not to be confused with the 7" and 10" portable DVB-t LCD TVs). DVB-h and DRM can use the better than MP3, ACC codec. DAB is using MP2 codec. Fine at 256k Stereo. Rubbish at the typically used 128k. I use 256K MP3 on my phone media player. DAB is only a set from FM-VHF in terms of choice. DAB sets only selling because they are on shelf. More products are being bought online. Hence Virgin selling their record stores and Dixions closed in UK. Worldwide the future of Digital Radio is not DAB. Worldspace is starting new services for Europe, UK and Ireland too. Eutelsat and Astra are testing portable/Mobile/car radio services. DAB was launched too soon. In UK it has too many channels, reducing quality. In Ireland it has too few and no compelling reason to change. DAB radios are selling for same reason as Vista. Because they are there. Recently in all walks the UK has lost the Plot. I'd rather take notice of what Germany, Scandinavia, Italy are doing. DVB-h texas chip set is lower power and cheaper than DAB will ever be and can cheaply be put in anything. The receiver is only on for 1/10th of the time as the OFDM transmission uses timeslots. One timeslot can have maybe 10 to 20 radio stations. That's 1/10th of one MUX! The texas chip is used in Italian receivers, mostly Mobile phones made by LG, Nokia and possibly ZTE (They do have 3g/DVB-h handset). I think due to tiny world wide adoption of DAB and very widespread DRM adoption (SW,MW and LW but still a couple of years away consumer wise) and wide adoption of DVB-h outside USA. there will be little chip development going forward on DAB. The system does not lend itself to kind of very low power consumption (weeks on lithium or 4 x AA Alkaline NOW!) that DVB-h is designed for.

13-02-2008, 23:11	#684
RTÉ Pulse: Dave Verified representative Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 39 Adverts \| Friends	The mux wasnt full, it seems they are now getting clever with CU usage! the AM service now only comes on for times when their is alternative content on AM such as sports or mass so the CU's are not wasted on a full am DAB service. Tune in on a saturday at 1400 for the sports split to see how it works. Its all quite clever really!

14-02-2008, 12:49	#686
Foggy43 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 966 Adverts \| Friends	Are you talking about something like we have in the UK. We have BBC Radio 5 with 2 sometimes 3 sub channels depending on how intense the sporting calendar is. Last Saturday we had the Main Radio 5 Live doing the around the grounds, one sub channel doing France v Ireland and the another doing Sunderland v Wigan. Last year when Wimbledon was on there was several channels covering the main courts. These channels are only active when required. I wonder will RTE follow an example we have here. A station closed down so someone got 2 microphones, stereo of course, and put the in a wooded area. The pick up birds of the feathered variety singing. So now we have 'Birdsong' 24 hours a day! Funny thing is that there was a programe recently saying wood pigeons were moving in to built up areas. Now they have there own radio station

14-02-2008, 14:55	#687
RTÉ Pulse: Dave Verified representative Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 39 Adverts \| Friends	Hi Foggy, Yes this is exactly what they are doing with Radio 1 Extra. Currently there is only one sub carrier of radio 1 that comes on Saturday at 1358 to 1758 for sport and at 0958 to 1132 for the mass and again at 1358 to 1758 for sunday sport.

14-02-2008, 14:57	#688
RTÉ Pulse: Dave Verified representative Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 39 Adverts \| Friends	Hi Foggy, Yes this is exactly what they are doing with Radio 1 Extra. Currently there is only one sub carrier of radio 1 that comes on Saturday at 1358 to 1758 for sport and at 0958 to 1132 for the mass and again at 1358 to 1758 for sunday sport.

15-02-2008, 12:29	#690
RTÉ Pulse: Dave Verified representative Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 39 Adverts \| Friends	Hi foggy, Most receivers build up a database of stations that they ever received. This information is always carried in the FIC. The trouble with putting out an extreemly low kilobit rate audio loop is that its a total waste of CU's and many receivers wont pick up anything below 64k or above 192k for that matter.