Christians should not celebrate Halloween.

24-10-2007 3:22pm

Rev Hellfir wrote:

Don't some people use this as an opportunity to say give out pamphlets such as chick tracks and other pamplets with and/or in place of candy.

lol.
That one's brilliant
Maybe that's where rtdh got his "samhain = lord of death" rubbish

BrianCalgary · 24-10-2007 3:53pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Er, as bonkey asked, where are you getting that from?

Samhain is derived from the Old Irish samfuin, which literally means "summers sunset", "sam" meaning summer and "fuin" meaning sunset or simply end.

The festival of Samhain was a celebration at the end of the summer session. I've never heard of it referring to the name of a god, not least a god of death.

Thanks for that wicknight.

I think the problem comes about because of the style of celebration by pagan communities around samhian. It then became a time to seek protection form the pagan gods.

And that is th ewhole point that I am trying to make. If you wish to focus on pagan gods and participate in pagan worship on this day, then you are going against God.

If however you can somehow Christ centre it, then that is good because Christ is the centre.

Then there is option three which is let the kids get dressed up, go out with their friends and get free candy from kindly neighbours.

As kids we used to walk around with UNICEF boxes while trick-or-treating and a lot of money has been raised over the years for UNICEF. Positive to me.

Owen · 24-10-2007 3:56pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

As kids we used to walk around with UNICEF boxes while trick-or-treating and a lot of money has been raised over the years for UNICEF. Positive to me.

Now THERE's a good idea! I'm a UNICEF supporter also, and I think this would be a great idea if kids got some sweets door to door, but they also raised money for less fortunate kids too.

Asiaprod · 24-10-2007 4:18pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Then there is option three which is let the kids get dressed up, go out with their friends and get free candy from kindly neighbours.

My position, let the kids be kids.

Run_to_da_hills · 24-10-2007 5:39pm

ned78 wrote: »

I think RTDH sees most things as evil, and misguided, but there are those who think that Hallowe'en is actually quite the spiritual event. It bonds communities together in the spirit of giving, and sharing, and of course, bestowing happiness upon children.

Many churches and Christian homes organise alternateive kids partys than sending their kids out for trick or treat on Halloween, organising games and fancy dress but leaving out the skulls, devil and witch costumes.

JimiTime · 25-10-2007 2:13pm

Son Goku wrote: »

Okay, maybe this is something which might be difficult for you to get across. Do you think a certain pagan god is currently being worshipped on Halloween?

In most quarters, no. Just like X-mas and Easter. However, Christians are indulging in Pagan rites, just not calling it a pagan rite. If Ireland was pagan still, and X-mas was still called Saturnalia. Would you see any issue with a christian indulging in all the ritual, just rebranding it? I do.

Above you said:
He told his people not to indulge in the practices of the nations, this would include their rituals honouring false gods.
This makes sense. However if no gods are worshipped on Halloween, what makes it bad?

Its a pagan ritual to honour the dead. If in the middle of August a trditional kids day was planed where they were dressed up and went around lookin for sweets, no bother. But its not. Pagans may be a very small minority, but we are sharing 'their' ritual. What about Christians celebrating Ramadan? or Eid? Just because you don't believe in it, does not mean that taking part in it is not wrong.

Currently all it is is a day of celebration that has its date in common with an old festival, that wasn't even about worshipping gods, but mainly celebrated the end of the harvest.

The Origin of Halloween
While there are many versions of the origins and old customs of Halloween, some remain consistent by all accounts. Different cultures view Holloween somewhat differently but traditional Halloween practices remain the same.
Halloween culture can be traced back to the Druids, a Celtic culture in Ireland, Britain and Northern Europe. Roots lay in the feast of Samhain, which was annually on October 31st to honor the dead.
Samhain signifies "summers end" or November. Samhain was a harvest festival with huge sacred bonfires, marking the end of the Celtic year and beginning of a new one. Many of the practices involved in this celebration were fed on superstition.
The Celts believed the souls of the dead roamed the streets and villages at night. Since not all spirits were thought to be friendly, gifts and treats were left out to pacify the evil and ensure next years crops would be plentiful. This custom evolved into trick-or-treating.

In fact a more direct question. Of all the things that are done on Halloween
Pumpkins, brambrack, dunking for apples, fireworks, going door to door e.t.c.
The only things of pagan origin are the bonfire and the dressing up. If people didn't dress up and didn't have bonfires, would it be okay?
Which god did Halloween glorify?

It was occult, not a god. Dead roaming the earth, evil spirits etc. Those activities you mentioned are all fine on their own. Its the context of which they are carried out.

TBH, i 'can' see your point, but I do think its a matter of concience. I don't think its unreasonable to feel that such practices are not very pleasing to God. Who calls himself 'A Jealous God'. Who has also shown his disdain for pagan practice. i'd never say one is doomed to hell and all that rhetoric, for doing it, but i would question it being practiced as a christian.

JimiTime · 25-10-2007 2:32pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Well the days of the week for a start, since they are named after Pagan gods

In fact the early Christians had great problem using the names of the week that we use, and turned to a numerical system that later influenced the names of the week in languages such as Portuguese.

And before you say "That is ridiculous, just because I call the day Tuesday doesn't mean I'm glorifying Thor or Mars" that would be the point that a lot of Christians would use with relation to Halloween, that just because they are having fun at Halloween doesn't mean they are worshiping Pagan rituals or gods.

If every 'Thors-Day' everyone painted lightening on their face and carried round a hammer, You'd have a point. While its unfortunate that all the days and months are named after false Gods thanks to our Pagan conquerers, they do not involve rituals dedicated to them. i would prefer if they went by other names, but if i was to invke such a thing, well, people would not know what I was talking about. As there is no ritual attached, i would see it as just part of the language.

Even the word 'unfortunate', which i have used above, has its rootings in the pagan belief in luck etc. However, it has become part of our language for expressing something lamentable.

25-10-2007 2:37pm

JimiTime wrote: »

I don't think its unreasonable to feel that such practices are not very pleasing to God. Who calls himself 'A Jealous God'.

He's omnipotent, why would he be so insecure
Personally if I made some toy soldiers and got jealous of them, I'd start to wonder...

*Page* · 25-10-2007 2:44pm

I dont celibrate Halloween... in my eyes its a christian holiday, I celibrate Samhain...

Stop stealing other Faiths Celibrations...

The word comes from medieval England's All Hallows' eve (Old Eng. hallow="saint"). However, many of these customs predate Christianity, going back to Celtic practices associated with Nov. 1, which was Samhain, the beginning of winter and the Celtic new year. Witches and other evil spirits were believed to roam the earth on this evening, playing tricks on human beings to mark the season of diminishing sunlight. Bonfires were lit, offerings were made of dainty foods and sweets, and people would disguise themselves as one of the roaming spirits, to avoid demonic persecution. Survivals of these early practices can be found in countries of Celtic influence today, such as the United States where children go from door to door in costumes demanding "trick or treat

The term Halloween (and its older rendering Hallowe'en) is shortened from All-hallow-even, as it is the evening of/before "All Hallows' Day", also known as "All Saints' Day". It was a day of religious festivities in various northern European Pagan traditions, until Popes Gregory III and Gregory IV moved the old Christian feast of All Saints' Day from May 13 to November 1. In the ninth century, the Church measured the day as starting at sunset, in accordance with the Florentine calendar. Although we now consider All Saints' (or Hallows') Day to occur one day after Halloween, the two holidays were, at that time, celebrated on the same day. Liturgically, the Church traditionally celebrated that day as the Vigil of All Saints, and, until 1970, a day of fasting as well. Like other vigils, it was celebrated on the previous day if it fell on a Sunday, although secular celebrations of the holiday remained on the 31st. The Vigil was suppressed in 1955, but was later restored in the post-Vatican II calendar.

Zombrex · 25-10-2007 2:56pm

JimiTime wrote: »

If every 'Thors-Day' everyone painted lightening on their face and carried round a hammer, You'd have a point.

So glorifying a pagan god is what you decide is glorifying a pagan god?

How convenient :rolleyes:

JimiTime wrote: »

While its unfortunate that all the days and months are named after false Gods thanks to our Pagan conquerers, they do not involve rituals dedicated to them.

Neither does Halloween, but you don't mind saying that it is evil. People who go out trick or treating aren't glorying pagan gods (that isn't even supposed to be what the festivial was about), any more than you are when you say "Tuesday"

You don't really believe that it is "Tyn's day", any more than the kids believe in witches and ghosts.

Rev Hellfire · 25-10-2007 3:01pm

Fantastic trolltasic !

hairyheretic · 25-10-2007 3:11pm

JimiTime wrote: »

While its unfortunate that all the days and months are named after false Gods thanks to our Pagan conquerers

'False Gods' would be a matter of opinion Jimi.

As for conquerers, you might want to do a little research on just how christianity spread, and what it got up to as it did. Doesn't make for particularly pleasant reading at times.

JimiTime · 25-10-2007 3:29pm

Wicknight wrote: »

So glorifying a pagan god is what you decide is glorifying a pagan god?

How convenient :rolleyes:

Neither does Halloween, but you don't mind saying that it is evil. People who go out trick or treating aren't glorying pagan gods (that isn't even supposed to be what the festivial was about), any more than you are when you say "Tuesday"

You don't really believe that it is "Tyn's day", any more than the kids believe in witches and ghosts.

Oh no he gave the rolleyes, he must now be right, and I'm an idiot. Whatever wicknight. i gave you an explaination more than you represented here. Its not good enough for you, i wont be loosing any sleep.

*Page* · 25-10-2007 3:34pm

"any more than the kids believe in witches and ghosts"
I know of witches,
my daughter knows what the night means and she will be painting her face red and scary to blend in the witches...

Just because you dont believe doesn't mean the world doesnt...

JimiTime · 25-10-2007 3:37pm

hairyheretic wrote: »

'False Gods' would be a matter of opinion Jimi.

Not to a faithful christian. Its quite simply, The living God, and false gods. Which is why the bible refers to Babylon as a godless nation. They worshipped many gods, but they didn't exist. Surely you know why i would refer to 'false gods', being a christian.

As for conquerers, you might want to do a little research on just how christianity spread, and what it got up to as it did. Doesn't make for particularly pleasant reading at times.

If you are referring to Catholocism, with its crusades etc, then thats got nothing to do with Christianity. There are many that claim to be christian, but true christians will be known by their fruits. if it contradicts christs teaching, then its not christian. So all the attrocities in the history of 'christianity' are simply not christian. Its like saying that 'christianity' is responsible for the attrocities that abusive priests cause. Christianity is not an organistation, its a way of life. If someones way of life goes against christs way, then it is not christian.

Hmm_Messiah · 25-10-2007 3:48pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Christians who dress up their kids and take them out ought to feel guilty because Halloween is the Devil's night. "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." -Ephesians 5:11

I often wonder would (or is ) Jesus smiling away or annoyed at the sense of seriousness and solemnity attributed to him.

If you look at Halloween as a time for Kids, for their imagination, for simpler pleasures in and ever more complex world then I have no doubt what so ever that God would see it as a good thing .

Addressing the seriousness you some give to the topic I am amused that people pronounce warnings ad criticisms of something they don't even take time to understand - even in its original incarnation Halloween has zero to do with demons etc, and the aspects regarding protection against evils, its a core catholic belief that evil exists an evil beings also, so where exactly is the problem

I've always though god would prefer to see people smiling and happy enjoying his creations than than prone and worshipping - the idea of a worshipful god is at an extreme an expression of vanity and far removed from anythign I understand as christian

hairyheretic · 25-10-2007 3:50pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Not to a faithful christian. Its quite simply, The living God, and false gods. Which is why the bible refers to Babylon as a godless nation. They worshipped many gods, but they didn't exist. Surely you know why i would refer to 'false gods', being a christian.

Certainly I understand why you'd said it. Just felt it worth pointing out that not everyone thinks that way.

Of course, since neither position can be independently proven .... *shrugs*

JimiTime wrote: »

If you are referring to Catholocism, with its crusades etc, then thats got nothing to do with Christianity. There are many that claim to be christian, but true christians will be known by their fruits. if it contradicts christs teaching, then its not christian. So all the attrocities in the history of 'christianity' are simply not christian. Its like saying that 'christianity' is responsible for the attrocities that abusive priests cause. Christianity is not an organistation, its a way of life. If someones way of life goes against christs way, then it is not christian.

If someone claims to be a christian, then the way they act will be how people will judge them and their beliefs. Especially if those acts are publicly being proclaimed as being done in the name of your God, backed up with the justification offered by interpretation of biblical passages.

Zombrex · 25-10-2007 4:10pm

JimiTime wrote: »

i gave you an explaination more than you represented here.

You didn't give an explanation Jimi, you gave us the old oh, well yes that is ... erm .. different ... excuse after you asked for other examples of pagan influence in our society.

Simple fact of the matter is that the majority of Christians see Halloween as perfectly harmless, as harmless as you saying "Tuesday", and they don't partake in it as a ritual to anything other than their children.

It isn't a ritual to a pagan god. What part of that do you not understand?

PDN · 25-10-2007 4:23pm

I pastor a church that contains a fair number of non-nationals, including a couple of hundred Africans. Most of those Africans do not see witchcraft as being something harmless or as a bit of fun, in fact some of them bear scars on their bodies that were inflicted during occult rituals. Child sacrifice is still a feature of witchcraft as practiced in certain parts of the world.

Each year, on 31st October, we have a children's "Hallelujah Party." Most of our church kids participate and now we are seeing increasing numbers of kids come from the surrounding neighbourhood because it is perceived by them to be much more fun than Halloween. It is a fancy dress party (but 'scary' costumes are not allowed) and the kids play games, have food, and usually watch some kind of cartoon movie.

I personally believe that Halloween is not a good thing. The emphasis on witchcraft and the occult is not good for kids. The entire concept of trick or treating is that of the protection racket - give us what we want or we'll make you suffer in some way. Also, the sight of little kids wandering around in darkness and approaching strangers' doors (often unaccompanied by an adult) must be a paedophile pervert's favourite fantasy. However, I think it is better for Christians to provide a better alternative rather than ranting or raving against Halloween.

Zombrex · 25-10-2007 4:32pm

PDN wrote: »

I pastor a church that contains a fair number of non-nationals, including a couple of hundred Africans. Most of those Africans do not see witchcraft as being something harmless or as a bit of fun, in fact some of them bear scars on their bodies that were inflicted during occult rituals. Child sacrifice is still a feature of witchcraft as practiced in certain parts of the world.

Thats great PDN, but Halloween isn't about witch-craft. Even when it was a pagan festival.

PDN wrote: »

Each year, on 31st October, we have a children's "Hallelujah Party." Most of our church kids participate and now we are seeing increasing numbers of kids come from the surrounding neighbourhood because it is perceived by them to be much more fun than Halloween. It is a fancy dress party (but 'scary' costumes are not allowed) and the kids play games, have food, and usually watch some kind of cartoon movie.

No scary costumes allowed? Where is the fun in that?

It is part of natural human development to be harmlessly scared from time to time as part of play, it helps children develop an adult sense of the world and allows them to explore real fear in a safe environment.

There is such a thing as being over protective

JimiTime · 25-10-2007 4:51pm

Wicknight wrote: »

You didn't give an explanation Jimi, you gave us the old oh, well yes that is ... erm .. different ... excuse after you asked for other examples of pagan influence in our society.

Simple fact of the matter is that the majority of Christians see Halloween as perfectly harmless, as harmless as you saying "Tuesday", and they don't partake in it as a ritual to anything other than their children.

It isn't a ritual to a pagan god. What part of that do you not understand?

Ok wicknight, ok..... now wheres that ignore button.

BrianCalgary · 25-10-2007 4:54pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Thats great PDN, but Halloween isn't about witch-craft. Even when it was a pagan festival.

No scary costumes allowed? Where is the fun in that?

It is part of natural human development to be harmlessly scared from time to time as part of play, it helps children develop an adult sense of the world and allows them to explore real fear in a safe environment.

The most frightened any of my children were on Hallowe'en was my eldest daughter at the age of two was scared to almost death by a guy in an ape suit. Scary could be anything. My kids say the scariest outfit they could imagine would be dad in spandex.

There is such a thing as being over protective

But the Christian environment is providing an alternative to something that the culture finds to very uncomfortable. And possibly Oct 31 in certain African cultures has been utilized to practice witchcraft amongst other rituals that are detrimental to the person.

And possibly the parents of the children wish them to participate in a Western European tradition yet protect them from the evils they associate with the time.

We have no right to judge their actions and I think wicknight PDN has explained clearly the reason for his church having the party in this manner.

JimiTime · 25-10-2007 4:58pm

PDN wrote: »

Each year, on 31st October, we have a children's "Hallelujah Party." Most of our church kids participate and now we are seeing increasing numbers of kids come from the surrounding neighbourhood because it is perceived by them to be much more fun than Halloween. It is a fancy dress party (but 'scary' costumes are not allowed) and the kids play games, have food, and usually watch some kind of cartoon movie.

can i ask. Why do you do this? is it so the children don't feel left out? Why on 'Hallelujah party', do they dress up? Just curious.

The entire concept of trick or treating is that of the protection racket - give us what we want or we'll make you suffer in some way.

The trick or treat was never done when i was a kid, it was 'help the halloween party'.

djpbarry · 25-10-2007 5:01pm

PDN wrote: »

Each year, on 31st October, we have a children's "Hallelujah Party." Most of our church kids participate and now we are seeing increasing numbers of kids come from the surrounding neighbourhood because it is perceived by them to be much more fun than Halloween. It is a fancy dress party (but 'scary' costumes are not allowed) and the kids play games, have food, and usually watch some kind of cartoon movie.

So, basically, you've censored Halloween?

PDN wrote: »

I personally believe that Halloween is not a good thing. The emphasis on witchcraft and the occult is not good for kids.

Neither is it good for kids to shield them from everything you deem to be "evil".

PDN · 25-10-2007 5:09pm

JimiTime wrote: »

can i ask. Why do you do this? is it so the children don't feel left out? Why on 'Hallelujah party', do they dress up? Just curious.

Because we want the kids to have fun. The non-Christian kids who attend tell us that they find a proper fancy dress party much more fun than what they usually do at Halloween.

BrianCalgary · 25-10-2007 5:11pm

djpbarry careful your sarcasm is quite a bit annoying and your last assertion that there is a danger of paedophiles in PDN's church is close to a false attack that in the USA could get you sued.

Anything more like this and you will be banned.

Add to the conversation.

djpbarry · 25-10-2007 5:15pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

djpbarry careful your sarcasm is quite a bit annoying and your last assertion that there is a danger of paedophiles in PDN's church is close to a false attack that in the USA could get you sued.

That is quite clearly not what I was implying but I have removed the offending comment none-the-less.

philologos · 25-10-2007 5:18pm

To the OP: The Devil doesn't have a night if one has enough faith in God, every day is His. Therefore Halloween is not the Devil's night, unless people are indeed worshipping idols of the devil or anyone else for that matter.

PDN · 25-10-2007 5:18pm

djpbarry wrote: »

So, basically, you've censored Halloween?

In our function, on our property, yes, we have censored Halloween. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. We also censor anything that glorifies gun culture, violence against women, racism etc.

Neither is it good for kids to shield them from everything you deem to be "evil".

On what basis do you make this claim? I've raised one very well-adjusted young teenager who shows absolutely no ill effects of being shielded from evil while she was growing up.

Yeah, eight-year olds can be damn scary. I let them clean out my house every year for fear of what they might do to me and my family.

Teach kids that these principles are OK when they are young and they will hold to them when they are older. Incidentally, I once had over 1000 euros of damage caused to my car by a kid who looked to be 8 years old. I wouldn't pay him money to 'mind' my car while I visited a dying baby in hospital.

That's a fair point. The kids are much better off going to church where they'll be safe from paedop...

They certainly will. Our children's workers have to adhere to a very strict child safety policy. No child is ever left alone with an adult.

djpbarry · 25-10-2007 5:27pm

PDN wrote: »

In our function, on our property, yes, we have censored Halloween. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. We also censor anything that glorifies gun culture, violence against women, racism etc.

And what age must a child reach before they are allowed to see the world for what it really is?

PDN wrote: »

On what basis do you make this claim? I've raised one very well-adjusted young teenager who shows absolutely no ill effects of being shielded from evil while she was growing up.

That's between you and your daughter - I'm not going to comment on how you should or should not raise your kids.

PDN wrote: »

Teach kids that these principles are OK when they are young and they will hold to them when they are older. Incidentally, I once had over 1000 euros of damage caused to my car by a kid who looked to be 8 years old. I wouldn't pay him money to 'mind' my car while I visited a dying baby in hospital.

Just because a kid engages in trick-or-treating, it does not mean that he or she will be more inclined to smash up someone's car! I'm pretty sure I played with toy guns when I was a kid but I have no desire to go on a murderous rampage.

PDN · 25-10-2007 5:33pm

djpbarry wrote: »

And what age must a child reach before they are allowed to see the world for what it really is?

That depends on what part of the world you are talking about. I don't believe, for example, any responsible parent would expose their infant to hard-core pornography on the grounds that 'they need to see the real world'. We all draw the line somewhere. If parents think that exposing their kids to Halloween, or indeed to listening to rap with lyrics about killing gays or beating up women, is OK then that's their call - but it ain't going to happen in our church.

JimiTime · 25-10-2007 5:38pm

PDN wrote: »

In our function, on our property, yes, we have censored Halloween. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. We also censor anything that glorifies gun culture, violence against women, racism etc.

Yeh, I didn't get djpbarry's point there myself

On what basis do you make this claim? I've raised one very well-adjusted young teenager who shows absolutely no ill effects of being shielded from evil while she was growing up.

or here??

Teach kids that these principles are OK when they are young and they will hold to them when they are older. Incidentally, I once had over 1000 euros of damage caused to my car by a kid who looked to be 8 years old. I wouldn't pay him money to 'mind' my car while I visited a dying baby in hospital.

I'd change that will to 'could' and it'd be a good point. As for the 8 year old scenario. i have seen kids as young as 5 smash up cars in Michaels estate in inchicore. Also, 2 12 year olds killed jamie Bulger. I've seen school windows get smashed, houses bricked, and residents hassled. Believe me, an 8 year old, or rather a group of them can be very dangerous and intimidating. you might not get it in the more 'prosperous' area's, but in the areas where you find bad parenting you find these awful kids. Sad, but fact.

They certainly will. Our children's workers have to adhere to a very strict child safety policy. No child is ever left alone with an adult.

And what a sad state of affairs it is. That you cant leave an adult alone with a child. How far this world has fallen:(

djpbarry · 25-10-2007 5:44pm

PDN wrote: »

That depends on what part of the world you are talking about.

I was referring to your church.

PDN wrote: »

I don't believe, for example, any responsible parent would expose their infant to hard-core pornography on the grounds that 'they need to see the real world'.

I never suggested otherwise.

PDN wrote: »

If parents think that exposing their kids to Halloween, or indeed to listening to rap with lyrics about killing gays or beating up women, is OK then that's their call - but it ain't going to happen in our church.

You cannot possibly put Halloween into the same bracket as homophobia and wife-beating.

djpbarry · 25-10-2007 5:48pm

JimiTime wrote: »

As for the 8 year old scenario. i have seen kids as young as 5 smash up cars in Michaels estate in inchicore. Also, 2 12 year olds killed jamie Bulger. I've seen school windows get smashed, houses bricked, and residents hassled. Believe me, an 8 year old, or rather a group of them can be very dangerous and intimidating. you might not get it in the more 'prosperous' area's, but in the areas where you find bad parenting you find these awful kids.

Hardly the same as an 8-year-old trick-or-treater. There are some messed-up kids in the world - I never said otherwise. But suggesting that a kid is going to become an "evil" little so-and-so because they went trick-or-treating at Halloween is ridiculous.

25-10-2007 5:50pm

JimiTime wrote:

I'd change that will to 'could' and it'd be a good point. As for the 8 year old scenario. i have seen kids as young as 5 smash up cars in Michaels estate in inchicore. Also, 2 12 year olds killed jamie Bulger. I've seen school windows get smashed, houses bricked, and residents hassled. Believe me, an 8 year old, or rather a group of them can be very dangerous and intimidating. you might not get it in the more 'prosperous' area's, but in the areas where you find bad parenting you find these awful kids. Sad, but fact.

So halloween is bad parenting and leads to crime... right.

PDN · 25-10-2007 5:52pm

djpbarry wrote: »

You cannot possibly put Halloween into the same bracket as homophobia and wife-beating.

Of course I didn't put Halloween in the same bracket as homophobia and wife beating. I put Halloween (something that glorifies the occult) in the same sentence as rap music lyrics (something that glorifies wife-beating and homophobia). Actually, you can put anything you like in the same bracket. It doesn't mean that you are saying that they are of the same magnitude, but it is a perfectly acceptable practice in a debate to use an extreme example to show the invalid nature of an absolutist argument. I was demonstrating that no-one, apart from a complete moron, really believes that children should be exposed to a completely uncensored view of the world.

Owen · 25-10-2007 5:53pm

JimiTime wrote: »

And what a sad state of affairs it is. That you cant leave an adult alone with a child. How far this world has fallen:(

It's always been that bloody way! Back in Roman times it wasn't unusual for young girls to be married to much older men, and likewise, slavery existed where young nubile girls were dragged into harems. Society is just less tolerant of it now.

And as long as I can remember, I don't know any parent who would leave their child with an unknown adult. Kids have been told for hundreds of years 'don't speak to strangers'.

PDN · 25-10-2007 5:56pm

bluewolf wrote: »

So halloween is bad parenting and leads to crime... right.

That certainly is not what Jimi said. He said that bad parenting contributes to kids who can be very intimidating at an early age and who are prepared to cause criminal damage unless you meet their monetary demands.

I personally think that allowing children to participate in trick & treating is bad parenting, but then so is so much else. Let's face it, we have very large numbers of obnoxious youth in this country that are evidence of very poor parenting skills. As a nation we don't seem to be very good at this parenting lark.

djpbarry · 25-10-2007 5:59pm

PDN wrote: »

rap music lyrics (something that glorifies wife-beating and homophobia).

Bit of a generalisation there. Just out of curiousity, what music are the kids allowed to listen to?

PDN wrote: »

I was demonstrating that no-one, apart from a complete moron, really believes that children should be exposed to a completely uncensored view of the world.

When did I suggest otherwise? What I am saying is that believing that Halloween will somehow corrupt a child is a bit daft - it's just a bit of fun.

Just about everyone I know dressed up at Halloween (myself included) and we all turned out fine.

Owen · 25-10-2007 6:00pm

PDN wrote: »

I personally think that allowing children to participate in trick & treating is bad parenting

Then I for one am delighted you're not my Father. Hallowe'en is a wonderful night for kids to dress up, not just as monsters, but also like Superheros, and role models. They get treated especially well by neighbours, and get given gifts - thereby setting the example to kids that it's better to give than receive (An example they'd appreciate when they get older). It's something that bonds a community, and builds a relationship between parent and child too.

PDN · 25-10-2007 6:25pm

ned78 wrote: »

Then I for one am delighted you're not my Father. Hallowe'en is a wonderful night for kids to dress up, not just as monsters, but also like Superheros, and role models. They get treated especially well by neighbours, and get given gifts - thereby setting the example to kids that it's better to give than receive (An example they'd appreciate when they get older). It's something that bonds a community, and builds a relationship between parent and child too.

And I too am delighted that I am not your father. So we are in agreement.

PDN · 25-10-2007 6:30pm

djpbarry wrote: »

Bit of a generalisation there.

Now you're just being silly. I had already referred to that rap music which does glorify homophobia & wife beating. Do you want to actually discuss the issues at hand?

Simi · 25-10-2007 6:37pm

Couldn't be bothered reading through 5 pages of nonsense so I'll just address my post to the title & the authors original post. Why is it that christian nut jobs have a problem with everything except the ludicrous nature of their statements? Halloween is the best holiday ever! (Aside from maybe x-mas.) I for one will be dressing up as scooby doo & taking part in a blood orgy with the local children! After which I'll sacrifice some of them to the blood god Snagglepuss...I fear I've said too much...

Zombrex · 25-10-2007 9:28pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

We have no right to judge their actions and I think wicknight PDN has explained clearly the reason for his church having the party in this manner.

I wasn't aware PDN was from an African culture that is associated with witch-craft

Zombrex · 25-10-2007 9:33pm

PDN wrote: »

Now you're just being silly. I had already referred to that rap music which does glorify homophobia & wife beating. Do you want to actually discuss the issues at hand?

I think he does, which is why we are all a little puzzled why you are bringing up homophobia, wife-beating, rape and murder when we are discussing Halloween

Leaving aside the leading your children into turning into a Satan worshiping wife-beating rapists, what is your actual issue with Halloween itself?

Do you let your children go on roller coasters?

djpbarry · 25-10-2007 9:56pm

PDN wrote: »

Now you're just being silly. I had already referred to that rap music which does glorify homophobia & wife beating. Do you want to actually discuss the issues at hand?

No, I don't think I am being "silly". I think it's a perfectly reasonable statement. Specifically, what rap music are you referring to? What other forms of music do you object to? And what does this have to do with Halloween?

Scofflaw · 25-10-2007 10:17pm

Belief in magic and witchcraft serves a fundamental human need.

cordially,
Scofflaw

BrianCalgary · 25-10-2007 11:29pm

Wicknight wrote: »

I think he does, which is why we are all a little puzzled why you are bringing up homophobia, wife-beating, rape and murder when we are discussing Halloween

Leaving aside the leading your children into turning into a Satan worshiping wife-beating rapists, what is your actual issue with Halloween itself?

Do you let your children go on roller coasters?

PDN did not bring it up. djbarry implied paedophilia in the church and then edited it out.

And to quote wicknight:
I wasn't aware PDN was from an African culture that is associated with witch-craft

I suggest you read PDN's post:

PDN wrote: »

I pastor a church that contains a fair number of non-nationals, including a couple of hundred Africans. Most of those Africans do not see witchcraft as being something harmless or as a bit of fun, in fact some of them bear scars on their bodies that were inflicted during occult rituals. Child sacrifice is still a feature of witchcraft as practiced in certain parts of the world.

I have highlighted the key points.

Do you read anybodies posts?

djpbarry · 25-10-2007 11:35pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

PDN did not bring it up. djbarry implied paedophilia in the church and then edited it out.

PDN did bring it up:

PDN wrote: »

Also, the sight of little kids wandering around in darkness and approaching strangers' doors (often unaccompanied by an adult) must be a paedophile pervert's favourite fantasy.

He also brought up homophobia and wife-beating. I don't know what any of this has to do with Halloween.

BrianCalgary · 25-10-2007 11:38pm

djpbarry wrote: »

PDN did bring it up:

He also brought up homophobia and wife-beating. I don't know what any of this has to do with Halloween.

Originally Posted by PDN
Also, the sight of little kids wandering around in darkness and approaching strangers' doors (often unaccompanied by an adult) must be a paedophile pervert's favourite fantasy.

I stand corrected. What PDN is doinghere is showing thepotential danger of allowing your kids out at night unattended.

As a parent I went out with my kids every hallowe'en to make sure that they were all OK against the dangers of the world and their own naivete.

Christians should not celebrate Halloween.

Comments