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News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

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Comments

  • #1252
    Alan_P
    Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭Alan_P


    F3 wrote: »
    AP & F2 do you not think that both Harris & Donnelly are feeding fuel to the fire by giving NAMA credibility in this case? NAMA are simply AIB in this case. AIB"s failure has put Sispar in breach of contract, but WCC have given them permission to do so, so therefore they have been excused for breaching. Should our real politicians not be concentrating on the breach and the consent? WCC may have the power to consent to no work being carried out, but does that make it right? Is it Greed, incompentance or dare I say it corruption? In the meantime the town people and businesses suffer the real effects

    I'm not particularly taking a view on the relevant responsibilities of Sisk, AIB and NAMA :- I'm simply making the point that various interested parties, for example Ciaran Hayden, are suggesting that we have to wait for the NAMA decision, and that a local TD has said that that decision has been made, and is known to Sispar.

    My point is purely that that decision should now be put in the public domain, since it least it takes that particular excuse off the table, and simplifies the discussion as to the best way forward. If the NAMA decision is that they're not providing a single further Euro, (as I would lay money it is), then one set of prevarications and circumventions becomes completely untenable.


  • #1253
    Jimjay
    Registered Users Posts: 800 ✭✭✭Jimjay


    Alan_P wrote: »
    I'm not particularly taking a view on the relevant responsibilities of Sisk, AIB and NAMA :- I'm simply making the point that various interested parties, for example Ciaran Hayden, are suggesting that we have to wait for the NAMA decision, and that a local TD has said that that decision has been made, and is known to Sispar.

    My point is purely that that decision should now be put in the public domain, since it least it takes that particular excuse off the table, and simplifies the discussion as to the best way forward. If the NAMA decision is that they're not providing a single further Euro, (as I would lay money it is), then one set of prevarications and circumventions becomes completely untenable.


    I am surprised non of the recent posts have been about this announcement that Nama have already made a decision?! To me this is big news that I didn't know before and until we know what this was all the arguments above are irrelevant.
    If Nama said they will supply some funding then this end of feb deadline is nonsense. If Nama have refused funding then the deadline has to be put in place. If Nama are waiting for more info from sispar and have guaranteed a an announcement in march then the talk of deadlines needs to wait until march.

    Could it be that the councilors know that Nama will provide some funding and are waiting to embarrass guboh at a later date by dropping a bombshell that their patience and not guboh pressure have provided the lifeline for the harbour?


  • #1254
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    Alan_P wrote: »
    I'm not particularly taking a view on the relevant responsibilities of Sisk, AIB and NAMA :- I'm simply making the point that various interested parties, for example Ciaran Hayden, are suggesting that we have to wait for the NAMA decision, and that a local TD has said that that decision has been made, and is known to Sispar.

    My point is purely that that decision should now be put in the public domain, since it least it takes that particular excuse off the table, and simplifies the discussion as to the best way forward. If the NAMA decision is that they're not providing a single further Euro, (as I would lay money it is), then one set of prevarications and circumventions becomes completely untenable.

    I agree 100% Alan, good point


  • #1255
    Cheeky Chops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Cheeky Chops


    This thread exhausts me. It just seems to go around in circles and as we all know a circle has no end.

    Ok, what can we actually do?


  • #1256
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    Cheeky Chops wrote: »
    This thread exhausts me. It just seems to go around in circles and as we all know a circle has no end.

    Ok, what can we actually do?

    Welcome back CC, yes it is exhausting, but some how the message has got to get out and repeated time and time again before it finally sinks through to those who have the power and responsibility to do something about it. This thread has about 10 regular contributors but over 200 visits per day. That means about 190 are reading and watching every day.

    What can we actually do you say? I know what I want to do, so it depends on what you want to do?

    Do you want to wait until the cost of finance returns to unprecedentedly low rates and at the same time property prices increase to a level that made this project commercially viable at the time of tender? if the answer is yes then you will have to wait 20 or 30 years or perhaps longer, that being so what do you want to do with the unsightly and fenced off site in the meantime?

    I'm an ordinary resident of Greystones, with no public profile and not very well known, a blow in some might say. But I've seen hearts of fire from people in this town over the past 12 months, not only on this thread but also in GUBOH, united together, asking not for recognition, nor reward, most are anonymous, and speak only through one spokesperson, to provide purpose, explanation, logic and reasoning to those who are not only elected to serve the people, but are paid to serve the people, but have difficulty in understanding precisely what a public representatives foremost role actually is, which is not to put all its efforts into being re-elected but to put all its efforts into serving the people, if thats done correctly, elections will be easily won. I didn't ask them to put themselves forward to undertake such a job, but I will not become exhausted until they do their job.

    What can the collective we do? we can decide to give up on the the local politicians who seem to be incapable of addressing this issue with the local public servants, and we should take this matter to Central Government, and demand a public enquiry into this PPP that is shrouded in secrecy and inner circles within circles [are these the circles you identified and referred to in your comment?]

    All interested parties are reading this thread, they know who they are, and they are smiling right now [Hi guys and girls]

    Exhausting and all as it is, the question is what do you want to do CC?


  • #1257
    Blanchflower
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Blanchflower


    I fully agree with you F3. A public enquiry on this clandestine Public Private Partnership is an absolute necessity. TD's Harris and Donnelly should bring this up in Dail Eireann. The burning question that needs answering is what exactly has Wicklow County Council committed the taxpayer to in this disastrous hidden contract. Why have they sat idly by while Sispar blatantly ignored planning condition after planning condition? Why have they accepted a situation where its PPP partner has become insolvent some time ago and they still have not terminated the contract? Why have they permitted their PPP partner to leave the habour area in such a horrible mess without any penalty whatsoever?:confused:


  • #1258
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Blanchflower wrote: »
    TD's Harris and Donnelly should bring this up in Dail Eireann. ...Why have they permitted their PPP partner to leave the habour area in such a horrible mess without any penalty whatsoever?:confused:

    Harris is of course part of the cabal that now controls both the council and the Dail, but you might be onto something there with Donnelly; he has already shown he is not afraid to take them on in regard to the negative equity issue (which is far more important than the appearance of the harbour to the people living in Charlesland)


  • #1259
    legrand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭legrand


    It would seem we (concerned residents and posters here) can be fairly sure where the project sits vis-a-vis the contract (Sispar/WCC & AIB/Nama), at least based on my understanding of F3's description of same.

    Has a formal letter been written to powers that be (excluding messrs Hayden/Mitchell..pointless and they are not the 'powers that be') that asks for specific answers to the questions raised here vis the contract?

    A letter with appropriately worded questions where yes/no answers required with follow on explanation / action. E.g. Yes, Sispar have not met their contractual obligation. Bond will be released.
    Simplistic I know but you get the idea.

    I know it’s a long shot and an response likely to be fully of political obfuscation and legalese. But if no such letter has been sent can we expect to be having these same posts a year from now?

    Who should write such a letter – concerned member of public, GUBOH or perhaps a political representative who understand the communities concerns and their own responsibility to act on behalf of the community?


  • #1260
    Cheeky Chops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Cheeky Chops


    legrand wrote: »
    It would seem we (concerned residents and posters here) can be fairly sure where the project sits vis-a-vis the contract (Sispar/WCC & AIB/Nama), at least based on my understanding of F3's description of same.

    Has a formal letter been written to powers that be (excluding messrs Hayden/Mitchell..pointless and they are not the 'powers that be') that asks for specific answers to the questions raised here vis the contract?

    A letter with appropriately worded questions where yes/no answers required with follow on explanation / action. E.g. Yes, Sispar have not met their contractual obligation. Bond will be released.
    Simplistic I know but you get the idea.

    I know it’s a long shot and an response likely to be fully of political obfuscation and legalese. But if no such letter has been sent can we expect to be having these same posts a year from now?

    Who should write such a letter – concerned member of public, GUBOH or perhaps a political representative who understand the communities concerns and their own responsibility to act on behalf of the community?

    I also think we could directly lobby the TD's concerned by filling their inboxes with emails requesting representation at a national level regarding the harbour and lack of accountability and inaction. Sometimes the easiest way to do this is for someone, who has far more knowledge than me on this subject, to draft a couple of lines, put up the TD's email addresses and then whoever so wishes can easily send correspondence requesting representation. It can be very effective.


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  • #1261
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by legrand viewpost.gif
    It would seem we (concerned residents and posters here) can be fairly sure where the project sits vis-a-vis the contract (Sispar/WCC & AIB/Nama), at least based on my understanding of F3's description of same.

    Has a formal letter been written to powers that be (excluding messrs Hayden/Mitchell..pointless and they are not the 'powers that be') that asks for specific answers to the questions raised here vis the contract?

    A letter with appropriately worded questions where yes/no answers required with follow on explanation / action. E.g. Yes, Sispar have not met their contractual obligation. Bond will be released.
    Simplistic I know but you get the idea.

    I know it’s a long shot and an response likely to be fully of political obfuscation and legalese. But if no such letter has been sent can we expect to be having these same posts a year from now?

    Who should write such a letter – concerned member of public, GUBOH or perhaps a political representative who understand the communities concerns and their own responsibility to act on behalf of the community?

    Cheeky Chops wrote: »
    I also think we could directly lobby the TD's concerned by filling their inboxes with emails requesting representation at a national level regarding the harbour and lack of accountability and inaction. Sometimes the easiest way to do this is for someone, who has far more knowledge than me on this subject, to draft a couple of lines, put up the TD's email addresses and then whoever so wishes can easily send correspondence requesting representation. It can be very effective.

    I think that's a good suggestion. If we don't tell them, they can always plead ignorance. I'll check out the emails etc and put them up here within a few days...


  • #1262
    karma_coma
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭karma_coma


    Found these architectural renders [PDF Format] from www.wicklow.ie . Don't know if they've been posted before but they give an idea of how the finished project would have looked


    LINK: http://www.wicklow.ie/apps/wicklowbeta/SpecialProjects/Part%20X%20-%20Oct%202011/VOLUME3.EIS.APPENDICES/3.9.Arc.LowRes.Version/FINAL%20Greystones%20Harbour%20Montage.pdf


  • #1263
    karma_coma
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭karma_coma


    Also available on wicklow.ie are the landscape architects drawings which shows the darcy's field park layout.
    Also has the overall housing plans.

    LINK [PDF]: http://www.wicklow.ie/apps/wicklowbeta/SpecialProjects/Part%20X%20-%20Oct%202011/VOLUME3.EIS.APPENDICES/2.Appendix2.2/Appendix2.2.Landscape.Archts.Drgs.pdf.pdf


  • #1264
    Cheeky Chops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Cheeky Chops


    So a field of mud. Welcome to Greystones.


  • #1265
    Blanchflower
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Blanchflower


    Cheeky Chops wrote: »
    So a field of mud. Welcome to Greystones.

    A field of mud, rubble, builders waste, material from the former unregulated town dump containing all manner of toxic materials and only God knows what else.............

    Welcome to Greystones Mister Sisk!:mad:


  • #1266
    Jimjay
    Registered Users Posts: 800 ✭✭✭Jimjay


    Jimjay wrote: »

    Could it be that the councilors know that Nama will provide some funding and are waiting to embarrass guboh at a later date by dropping a bombshell that their patience and not guboh pressure have provided the lifeline for the harbour?

    Although funding or non funding has not been confirmed, you could see this coming, was picked up quicker than I thought though.

    http://www.greystonesguide.ie/nama-response-rubbishes-unworkable-deadline/

    NAMA response rubbishes unworkable deadline
    In response to NAMA’s communication with Sispar Cllr Ciarán Hayden said “ NAMA have completely rubbished GPDA/GUBOH’s demand for an unworkable three week deadline on a decision to build the Primary Care Centre. I have already stated that an imposition of a deadline involving NAMA is futile and it was ill advised. If GPDA/GUBOH concentrated on working with Sispar and local public reps instead of slagging them off on social forums they would find they could achieve a lot more. Deadlines don’t work with State Agencies.”


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  • #1267
    Blanchflower
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Blanchflower


    It is more likely that NAMA may now be in the process of appointing a receiver to Sispar rather than putting more funding into the insolvent Sispar black hole. It can call on the guarantee from Sicon Ltd and Park Developments Dublin Limited for the repayment of the loans of €39.3 million. If the decision was positive then they would be telling us but everything is far too vague.

    Nama Wine Lake report today that:
    NAMA continues to appoint receivers to developers at a brisk pace, and today we learn from Iris Oifigiuil that the bell tolls for County Antrim developer Alastair Jackson and three of his companies, Naviasky Limited, Tarajan Limited and Botha Limited – all three registered in the Isle of Man. For the first time, NAMA has used the services of Lisney in Dublin and Peter Stapleton is named as the property receiver.
    The main role of NAMA is as a debt collector and not as a charitable institution for insolvent limited companies.


  • #1268
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Blanchflower wrote: »
    It is more likely that NAMA may now be in the process of appointing a receiver to Sispar
    In that event, would the bond still be available to be drawn down for clean-up/landscaping?


  • #1269
    Blanchflower
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Blanchflower


    recedite wrote: »
    In that event, would the bond still be available to be drawn down for clean-up/landscaping?

    The bank (NAMA) loan is guaranteed by Sicon Limited (ultimate parent company of John Sisk & Son Limited) and Park Developments (Dublin) Limited on a several basis. However Wicklow County Council may not have obtained such a guarantee. If they did not get such a guarantee then a bond from a clearly insolvent Sispar Limited would be worthless. Councillor Mitchell signed the Public Private Partnership contract on behalf of Wicklow County Council so he should be able to answer this very important question. :confused:


  • #1270
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    F3 wrote: »
    Normally bonds are simply 3rd party 'promises to pay the bearer' when the bond is called upon. Think of them as insurance policies but for cash payouts when certain circumstances arise. The most costly are 'on demand bonds' where the party requiring the bond may simply 'panic' and the bondsman pays out without question. There will always be an enquiry into why the bond was called in and indeed if it has been validly called in.

    The price of a bond and more importantly the Availability of bonds are proportional to the size and experience of the company seeking the bond. Contractors are required to provide bonds on most large projects. CompAnies normally have a maximum bonding capability and will not be able to enter into new contracts if their bonding on existing projects are still live or capable of being called. The capability of providing bonding is akin to a currency and 'on demand bonds' are now only issued (almost) on a cash deposit basis. I.e. you want a bond for 5m, you put 5m on deposit !!


    Some earlier threads relating to bonds, we have no idea what type of bond has been secured, but it should be solid.


  • #1271
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    Jimjay wrote: »
    Although funding or non funding has not been confirmed, you could see this coming, was picked up quicker than I thought though.

    http://www.greystonesguide.ie/nama-response-rubbishes-unworkable-deadline/

    NAMA response rubbishes unworkable deadline
    In response to NAMA’s communication with Sispar Cllr Ciarán Hayden said “ NAMA have completely rubbished GPDA/GUBOH’s demand for an unworkable three week deadline on a decision to build the Primary Care Centre. I have already stated that an imposition of a deadline involving NAMA is futile and it was ill advised. If GPDA/GUBOH concentrated on working with Sispar and local public reps instead of slagging them off on social forums they would find they could achieve a lot more. Deadlines don’t work with State Agencies.”

    The deadline I would suggest is not for NAMA, it's for Sispar and WCC. I don't mind repeating again for the slow to ' cop on' readers. It is Sispar 's obligation to fund this project, not NAMA's, why is there a continued reference to NAMA?? It is irrelevant. If Sispar cannot fund it, then they are failing to proceed, that puts them in breach of contract, so fire them and call in the bond for €10million ! Anyone getting in the way of doing this right now must have their motives investigated


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  • #1272
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    F3 wrote: »
    The deadline I would suggest is not for NAMA, it's for Sispar and WCC. I don't mind repeating again for the slow to ' cop on' readers. It is Sispar 's obligation to fund this project, not NAMA's, why is there a continued reference to NAMA?? It is irrelevant. If Sispar cannot fund it, then they are failing to proceed, that puts them in breach of contract, so fire them and call in the bond for €10million ! Anyone getting in the way of doing this right now must have their motives investigated

    Unless of course they are protected by terms in the contract that allows them to give the two fingers to the residents and businesses in Greystones. So who is responsible for signing a contract that holds the entire town to ransom by developers??


  • #1273
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Blanchflower wrote: »
    The bank (NAMA) loan is guaranteed by Sicon Limited (ultimate parent company of John Sisk & Son Limited) and Park Developments (Dublin) Limited on a several basis. However Wicklow County Council may not have obtained such a guarantee. If they did not get such a guarantee then a bond from a clearly insolvent Sispar Limited would be worthless. Councillor Mitchell signed the Public Private Partnership contract on behalf of Wicklow County Council so he should be able to answer this very important question. :confused:

    That's assuming Councillor Mitchell actually read the entire text before signing it.
    However, now would be a good time for councillors to dig out the contract and find out whether the bond is collectible or not in the event that Sispar is declared insolvent by the parent companies.
    It's totally unacceptable that elected public representatives are not disclosing the answer to this very important question.


  • #1274
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    recedite wrote: »
    That's assuming Councillor Mitchell actually read the entire text before signing it.
    However, now would be a good time for councillors to dig out the contract and find out whether the bond is collectible or not in the event that Sispar is declared insolvent by the parent companies.
    It's totally unacceptable that elected public representatives are not disclosing the answer to this very important question.

    My understanding is that this contract has previously been requested by Greystones Town Council and WCC has given them the perverbial 'Harvey Smith' in other words WCC have demonstrated that they care less about what this failed project has done to our town. What sickens me is that we have a number of Wicklow County Councilors on our Town Council so who is calling the shots here???


  • #1275
    Jimjay
    Registered Users Posts: 800 ✭✭✭Jimjay


    F3 wrote: »
    The deadline I would suggest is not for NAMA, it's for Sispar and WCC. I don't mind repeating again for the slow to ' cop on' readers. It is Sispar 's obligation to fund this project, not NAMA's, why is there a continued reference to NAMA?? It is irrelevant. If Sispar cannot fund it, then they are failing to proceed, that puts them in breach of contract, so fire them and call in the bond for €10million ! Anyone getting in the way of doing this right now must have their motives investigated

    There is no need to get personal, i can assure you that i am not slow. The nama decission is relevant. You say it is sispar obligation to find funding, they are looking to Nama for fundingIt is only not relevant once nama have announced no funding. Then it is up to sispar to look for other investors. If they are to give a decision in march then any deadline should be dealt with after this date. We have been waiting this long i am sure we can wait til march. If they have promised a decision in march and do not fulfill that promise then that can only make guboh's cause and public relations all the more respected. I am all for guboh and getting something done but why can the deadline not be moved to end of march?


  • #1276
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    Jimjay wrote: »
    There is no need to get personal, i can assure you that i am not slow. The nama decission is relevant. You say it is sispar obligation to find funding, they are looking to Nama for fundingIt is only not relevant once nama have announced no funding. Then it is up to sispar to look for other investors. If they are to give a decision in march then any deadline should be dealt with after this date. We have been waiting this long i am sure we can wait til march. If they have promised a decision in march and do not fulfill that promise then that can only make guboh's cause and public relations all the more respected. I am all for guboh and getting something done but why can the deadline not be moved to end of march?

    The comment about being slow to understand was not aimed at you Jimjay. Sispar have been looking to NAMA for funding for over a year now. The decision has been imminent every month of th past 12 months. Waiting until March, will only bring another excuse to wait until June, then September then by Christmas. Enough Now, really enough now.


  • #1277
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    When is GUBOH going to have a public meeting so as the general public will be enlightened as to their plan for the future of the Harbour, Surely it is time for this group to let the people of Greystones know what they want in detail. Have GUBOH ever had a meeting where the general public have been invited to attend ?


  • #1278
    Jimjay
    Registered Users Posts: 800 ✭✭✭Jimjay


    pixbyjohn wrote: »
    When is GUBOH going to have a public meeting so as the general public will be enlightened as to their plan for the future of the Harbour, Surely it is time for this group to let the people of Greystones know what they want in detail. Have GUBOH ever had a meeting where the general public have been invited to attend ?

    Thanks John I was thinking the same. It was my impression that guboh are working on behalf of the community but they gradually appear to be working more to their own personal goals. (only from what I percieve as a member of the greystones public) dismissing other peoples views, telling others how they should think and calling people slow is not really the way to win support.

    I am sure guboh are doing a fine job and I do believe much of the progress would not have taken place if not for them however I think a public meeting or even some sort of public questionnaire would be useful at this stage.


  • #1279
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,104 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    pixbyjohn wrote: »
    When is GUBOH going to have a public meeting so as the general public will be enlightened as to their plan for the future of the Harbour, Surely it is time for this group to let the people of Greystones know what they want in detail. Have GUBOH ever had a meeting where the general public have been invited to attend ?

    Good point actually - perhaps though not just telling what they are looking for but seeking feedback on it as well. They can also then strengthen their case with a clear public mandate.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #1280
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    I agree, we should have a meeting with GUBOH, no point in us exchanging views here, who do we meet? I'm a member of the Facebook group, I know Fiachra Etchinham is spokesperson, but who else is involved? I see they often request for members to make comments and send email in, but I've not seen a public meeting advertised or called


  • #1281
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    pixbyjohn wrote: »
    When is GUBOH going to have a public meeting so as the general public will be enlightened as to their plan for the future of the Harbour, Surely it is time for this group to let the people of Greystones know what they want in detail. Have GUBOH ever had a meeting where the general public have been invited to attend ?

    What do you want John? I was reading the GUBOH face book page and it seems clear to me what they want


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  • #1282
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    F3 wrote: »
    What do you want John? I was reading the GUBOH face book page and it seems clear to me what they want

    Not everyone has the internet or reads a facebook page. I would like to see a public meeting called by GUBOH so as the wider community of Greystones has a chance to attend/or not as the case may be. But at least those that attend may make a contribution and feel part of the future plans which GUBOH is looking for. Thats what I want. Also maybe a committee could be elected for the future.


  • #1283
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    pixbyjohn wrote: »
    Not everyone has the internet or reads a facebook page. I would like to see a public meeting called by GUBOH so as the wider community of Greystones has a chance to attend/or not as the case may be. But at least those that attend may make a contribution and feel part of the future plans which GUBOH is looking for. Thats what I want. Also maybe a committee could be elected for the future.

    I'm all for a public meeting. I think an appropriate moment would be after the February HLC meeting, particularly if WCC and Sispar ignores the Mayor's and GUBOH's call for a Plan B and brings nothing along. That really would be the two fingers to the entire community.

    We need to take stock and decide how to proceed. GUBOH has done a pretty good job up to now — the south harbour is open and all but a short stretch of hoardings gone, which were its original objectives. But to deal with this crisis you need more than a Facebook page to connect with the community.


  • #1284
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    The Durutti Column wrote: »
    I'm all for a public meeting. I think an appropriate moment would be after the February HLC meeting, particularly if WCC and Sispar ignores the Mayor's and GUBOH's call for a Plan B and brings nothing along. That really would be the two fingers to the entire community.

    We need to take stock and decide how to proceed. GUBOH has done a pretty good job up to now — the south harbour is open and all but a short stretch of hoardings gone, which were its original objectives. But to deal with this crisis you need more than a Facebook page to connect with the community.

    I think it would be great to get the entire interested members of the community in one spot, to have an interactive questions and answers session with the leaders of GUBOH, I would not like it to be contaminated by the local politicians at the ' top table' bladdering on about their own views which are quite frankly irritable and knieve, but rather listen to what the people of GUBOH have to say. They are a private enough bunch ( and I know at least 3 of them personally) and speak through a nominated spokesperson. Basil Miller held that role for the first 9 months or so and now it's Fiachra Etchinham, both are very polished and distinguished speakers that have come under immense fire from certain TC's who detest alternative opinions to their own. If anyone was so inclined, go the greystones guide harbour update and read the 10 or so pages of harbour updates from the Councilors, it is a hoot to read them in chronological order. Some are so entrenched in their own importance and biligerence it beggars belief. It would make a great comical sketch, hey maybe we should all write a play, steeped with satire to reflect the goings on from the very start?


  • #1285
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    Please don't turn this thread into GUBOH supporters slagging Politicians and vice versa. It misses the point altogether when this keeps going on and does nothing for progressing the needs of the community. Come on guys be above the bar room brawling and don't let yourselves down.


  • #1286
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    pixbyjohn wrote: »
    Please don't turn this thread into GUBOH supporters slagging Politicians and vice versa. It misses the point altogether when this keeps going on and does nothing for progressing the needs of the community. Come on guys be above the bar room brawling and don't let yourselves down.

    You appear to be a voice of reason John. But sometimes you have to stand back and paint the entire picture with an element of comical satire before pennys start to drop. Its a tactic that has been used for hundreds of years, [Shakespeare et al] If you stand back and really look at this issue, its perfect for comical satire. We could even get actors and have it to open Greystones Festival this year.

    Its amazing how my Act 1 Scene 1 was deleted without so much of a PM from the moderators. Its my view on Greystones Harbour and Marina, its not slagging off, its not brawling, its a comical satire, I used no names.

    My Grandfather used to say "never get into an argument with an idiot, he will bring you down to his level and defeat you with experience"


  • #1287
    Cheeky Chops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Cheeky Chops


    Ok so how do we go about getting a meeting organised? Are any of the GUBOH team officially posting on here? There are many of us that would happily attend and voice our concerns but we need a forum to do so - this thread, as I said before, is going around in circles.

    Time for the community to get its say in my humble opinion. GUBOH have been doing a great job but they seem to be becoming tarnished by association so I think it is time to open this up to a public face to face meeting for all interested residents. FB is not everyone's cup of tea and I am fed up with the hiding behind usernames on here. Transparency is the way forward - enough with the online dialogue. If I read one more link to Councillor's pages I will explode!

    As Nike would say "Just do it!"


  • #1288
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    Cheeky Chops wrote: »
    Ok so how do we go about getting a meeting organised? Are any of the GUBOH team officially posting on here? There are many of us that would happily attend and voice our concerns but we need a forum to do so - this thread, as I said before, is going around in circles.

    Time for the community to get its say in my humble opinion. GUBOH have been doing a great job but they seem to be becoming tarnished by association so I think it is time to open this up to a public face to face meeting for all interested residents. FB is not everyone's cup of tea and I am fed up with the hiding behind usernames on here. Transparency is the way forward - enough with the online dialogue. If I read one more link to Councillor's pages I will explode!

    As Nike would say "Just do it!"

    I agree, I'm sick of leaving the community problems of Greystones to others, lets do something about it. I'll pass the word on to my contacts in GUBOH


  • #1289
    Cheeky Chops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Cheeky Chops


    I thought you were one of GUBOH F3.


  • #1290
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    Cheeky Chops wrote: »
    I thought you were one of GUBOH F3.

    One of the 800 members Cheeky. Are you not?


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  • #1291
    Cheeky Chops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Cheeky Chops


    F3 wrote: »
    One of the 800 members Cheeky. Are you not?

    If you mean did I sign the petition then yes but that certainly does not make me a member. I actually feel like I have no voice in this dire situation. The councillors appear untouchable and I have no idea who the GUBOH people are.

    I 100% back GUBOH in their general aim but I sense it has got somewhat personal and sidetracked (might I add, originally instigated by certain public representatives). Saying that though I thought that you F3 and the Durutti Column were GUBOH so that has clouded my judgement.

    I do support the group but I can't say I am a member because I am unable to participate in any way.

    I am all for direct action. I would have loved to get involved in this very sincere campaign. However, I am not originally from Greystones, and it has been said to my face that I should butt out of local issues. I believe this has always been part of the problem - this whole "Greystones" thing. I remember the petition was to be kept in Greystones, whereas I would have had it all over Dublin with many more names on it. The harbour is not a small town development that is the baby of a few town councillors and the despair of born and bred Greystonians. It is a major east coast development, on the outskirts of the capitol of Ireland, with direct rail links to the city centre that has FAILED. It affects far more than just the people in Greystones. It had the potential to greatly boost tourism levels for the area creating many jobs with a knock on effect for the whole county. It affects Dubliners that used to come out for the day - who wants to bring the kids for a stroll along a building site by the sea? I don't go down there anymore. I hate looking at it. On the one side there is a derelict hotel aesthetically demonstrating the decay of tourism in the town and on the other side there is the embarrassing reminder of the greed and corruption that was rife in the noughties with the horror of the building site at the harbour.

    Anyway F3 please let us know what the response from GUBOH is.


  • #1292
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    Cheeky Chops wrote: »
    If you mean did I sign the petition then yes but that certainly does not make me a member. I actually feel like I have no voice in this dire situation. The councillors appear untouchable and I have no idea who the GUBOH people are.

    I 100% back GUBOH in their general aim but I sense it has got somewhat personal and sidetracked (might I add, originally instigated by certain public representatives). Saying that though I thought that you F3 and the Durutti Column were GUBOH so that has clouded my judgement.

    I do support the group but I can't say I am a member because I am unable to participate in any way.

    I am all for direct action. I would have loved to get involved in this very sincere campaign. However, I am not originally from Greystones, and it has been said to my face that I should butt out of local issues. I believe this has always been part of the problem - this whole "Greystones" thing. I remember the petition was to be kept in Greystones, whereas I would have had it all over Dublin with many more names on it. The harbour is not a small town development that is the baby of a few town councillors and the despair of born and bred Greystonians. It is a major east coast development, on the outskirts of the capitol of Ireland, with direct rail links to the city centre that has FAILED. It affects far more than just the people in Greystones. It had the potential to greatly boost tourism levels for the area creating many jobs with a knock on effect for the whole county. It affects Dubliners that used to come out for the day - who wants to bring the kids for a stroll along a building site by the sea? I don't go down there anymore. I hate looking at it. On the one side there is a derelict hotel aesthetically demonstrating the decay of tourism in the town and on the other side there is the embarrassing reminder of the greed and corruption that was rife in the noughties with the horror of the building site at the harbour.

    Anyway F3 please let us know what the response from GUBOH is.


    November 22nd 2011 the GUBOH committee were listed on Facebook as follows:

    John F O'Brien
    John Byrne
    Jonathon Leonard
    Johnny Morrison
    David Flynn
    Stephen Flynn
    Fiachra Etchingham (Spokesperson)
    Mary Egan
    Gillian Demery
    Billy Byrne
    Pippins Parkinson


  • #1293
    Cheeky Chops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Cheeky Chops


    Thanks for the list. I actually know quite a few of them so I can approach them directly myself as well.


  • #1294
    Taltos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    Hi - been a while since I posted here.
    Also know quite a few names from the list but ashamed to say it is the 80s since I spoke to most of them. All good folk though - Jonathon was definitely a laugh as a kid :)

    Anyway that isn't why I came here this morning. I had held off on walking out on the pier to be honest until yesterday. First venture out - you know - it is not bad looking out there - I do still miss the old pier and sometimes wish we had just removed the kish to allow the natural sea currents to restore the sand levels inside. Anyway wishes are useless now.

    Some nice views out there back in towards the harbour - just saddened to see some of the wall lights already smashed - out where the fishermen were.

    Any ideas though for any natural dive points along this stretch? Remember as a kid going in off the old pier and back up the steps - even remember one of the Ryle's pushing Kerry in at those same steps only for someone to shout "he can't swim" - never saw a young chap dive in so fast after someone he pushed.

    It does look promising though - possibly when the rest of the railings are removed, and maybe the addition of a set of steps added at the end of the walkway (right at top of steps). The current setup there is a bit dangerous - nearly climbed over myself yesterday to save a walk back - but thought better of it. Expect it is only a matter of time before someone does go over and slip down the rocks there.


  • #1295
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    Taltos wrote: »
    Hi - been a while since I posted here.
    Also know quite a few names from the list but ashamed to say it is the 80s since I spoke to most of them. All good folk though - Jonathon was definitely a laugh as a kid :)

    Anyway that isn't why I came here this morning. I had held off on walking out on the pier to be honest until yesterday. First venture out - you know - it is not bad looking out there - I do still miss the old pier and sometimes wish we had just removed the kish to allow the natural sea currents to restore the sand levels inside. Anyway wishes are useless now.

    Some nice views out there back in towards the harbour - just saddened to see some of the wall lights already smashed - out where the fishermen were.

    Any ideas though for any natural dive points along this stretch? Remember as a kid going in off the old pier and back up the steps - even remember one of the Ryle's pushing Kerry in at those same steps only for someone to shout "he can't swim" - never saw a young chap dive in so fast after someone he pushed.

    It does look promising though - possibly when the rest of the railings are removed, and maybe the addition of a set of steps added at the end of the walkway (right at top of steps). The current setup there is a bit dangerous - nearly climbed over myself yesterday to save a walk back - but thought better of it. Expect it is only a matter of time before someone does go over and slip down the rocks there.


    Hi Taltos, There are quite a few dangerous spots around the development, this is why it all needs to be adressed before someone gets injured or worse. I know its sounds like this thread blogged by a load of radical whingers revolting against the system, but really looking at the GUBOH committee who have been the front pushers for action on the harbour, the're a group of straight talking apolitical genuinely concerned community members, despite being branded unfairly as radical left wingers by others. We need to support them all, and I think a public meeting is a great idea, lets meet these people and show them that they are really not alone on this quest to make our town great again.


  • #1296
    Cheeky Chops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Cheeky Chops


    F3 it is interesting seeing the list. I had an image of GUBOH as a small group of zealots who are raging a self serving battle against public representatives after reading some of the commentary that has been posted online.

    FAR FROM IT!

    The few I know are not at all politically ambitious but generally care for the well being of the town both for their families and friends. I truly believe a public meeting is the way forward even more so now so that the altruism can shine through and the mud slinging can be stopped.

    Did you speak to any of them yet F3? Is a meeting plausible?


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  • #1297
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    Cheeky Chops wrote: »
    F3 it is interesting seeing the list. I had an image of GUBOH as a small group of zealots who are raging a self serving battle against public representatives after reading some of the commentary that has been posted online.

    FAR FROM IT!

    The few I know are not at all politically ambitious but generally care for the well being of the town both for their families and friends. I truly believe a public meeting is the way forward even more so now so that the altruism can shine through and the mud slinging can be stopped.

    Did you speak to any of them yet F3? Is a meeting plausible?

    Yes and yes,

    Apparently there was to be a Harbour Liason committee meeting scheduled for this Wednesday at which GUBOH has a voice, but WCC has unilaterally postponed it until March (not sure why) it was suggested that after that meeting, a public meeting will be called. I was also told that GUBOH are meeting with the Town Council in March, this I believe can be attended by the public, to listen only not to partake.


  • #1298
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    This is a good debate which I have not joined as I was away

    GUBOH have considered a public meeting.

    I think I can say in fairness that the main reason it hasn't happened is because of the risk that certain public representatives will attack the whole concept (as they did with a previous GUBOH public event) and that it could serve to derail the good relationship which GUBOH has with most of our public reps.

    However the points about lack of information and lack a facility for involvement by the public in general are well made and we will revist this matter very shortly


  • #1299
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    Just looking on the GUBOH Facebook page, seems there are some serious problems with recent erosion on the North Beach cliffs, Seems the contractor ought to have placed 30,000 m3 of protection, but has only placed a fraction of it. I do recall that there is a maximum allowable amount of erosion expected over the 30 year period, but at this rate Sispars rate will be eroded in no time at all. Are we looking at an environmental impact that has manifested itself through WCC's negligence? (ie failing to ensure Sispar complete it necessary works???)

    What next??? The old dump perhaps will be washed into the bay, with 100 years of leachate spilling into the bay killing off what ever fish are left!!


  • #1300
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    Just to clarify, the 30 year period is the concession period Sispar have to run the marina and harbour, which includes maintenance and dredging etc, there was an expected rate of erosion allowable. Either someone has screwed up the Maths or Hueston............we may have a problem.

    Any civil/marine engineers out there?


  • #1301
    Cheeky Chops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Cheeky Chops


    Fiachra2 wrote: »
    This is a good debate which I have not joined as I was away

    GUBOH have considered a public meeting.

    I think I can say in fairness that the main reason it hasn't happened is because of the risk that certain public representatives will attack the whole concept (as they did with a previous GUBOH public event) and that it could serve to derail the good relationship which GUBOH has with most of our public reps.

    However the points about lack of information and lack a facility for involvement by the public in general are well made and we will revist this matter very shortly

    Public representatives are in that position because of OUR vote and we should not be walking on egg shells around them. They if anyone should be working at keeping a good relationship with the people not the other way around. They are officially there to represent our opinions and concerns and are not be pandered to. GUBOH should not be feeling the need to appease the egos of certain individuals or corporations. You should stand strong, opt out of the cronyism and take them on in a public fashion. Diplomacy has not worked. Time for utter transparency and public debate. Time for gloves off I reckon.


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