"Southern" Ireland... do you mean 'Ireland'?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 05-12-2008 2:03pm

Irlbo wrote: »

So your of those fanticists that believe that the North of Ireland is actually a part of Britain?,even though it is an island and as a whole has a unique culture and identidy,it being part of the Uk is due to Britain forcably occupying the North,and hence christening it 'Northern Ireland' as part of UK,but just because they claim so,doesnt make it so

Face it, if we like it or not, as things stand NI is part of the UK. It is not an island - it is part of an island (although I can't see what that has to do with anything). As for forcably occupying anywhere - I think that's how most countries in Europe for millennia have been formed. Politically at this moment in time it is part of the UK (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland), it is not legislatively part of the ROI...

Red Sleeping Beauty · 05-12-2008 2:07pm

I've not read the whole thread but I get the jist of it. My girlfriend's Scottish and I've been to many cities in England and also to Wales and of course Scotland. Many many people say "Southern Ireland" by default. Aside from any political incorrectness, it's geographically incorrect as of course Donegal is in the northern sector of Ireland.

Many of the English,Welsh and Scottish people I've met were quite iggnorant about Ireland. It's usually fairly innocent though and a quick little lesson brings em up to date.

Whenever I would tell someone that I'm from Ireland they'd sometimes say "oh yeah, I've been to Belfast". Not quite the same like but it didn't seem to bother them.

My 2cents on the matter would be for Ireland, Scotland and Wales to unite and form a union and let England do it's own thing.

ibuprofen · 05-12-2008 2:16pm

ibuprofen wrote: »

It has no legal or official status in Ireland and that is unquestionable. AS shown below stated by Minister for Foreign affairs Dermot Ahern

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT face=Arial size=2>The introduction of the Folens atlas follows a recent entry on the online encyclopaedia Wikipedia on the term "British Isles" which stated that the phrase could be "confusing and objectionable to some people, particularly in Ireland".

Dammit my internet went down....

The quote didn't go in correctly so here's the link below. The BPP wern't too happy about it either. Scary website by the way.....

http://www.bpp.org.uk/nw105.html

Terry · 05-12-2008 2:23pm

palomca wrote: »

Sorry, but hearing a southerner say something along the lines of "no, I'm not southern Irish, I'm Irish" absolutely makes my blood boil!:mad:

As someone from Northern Ireland, something that annoys me even more (actually, INFURIATES me) is the fact that those in the Republic have the complete and utter arrogance to call their country just 'Ireland' in the first place, without any differentiator from the island as a whole.

In Northern Ireland we are as Irish as you southerners, but that does not mean that your state should try and pretend that you can sovereignty over the whole island (supposedly the constitution of the Republic was altered to remove this in response to the 1998 Good Friday Agreement).

I could even argue (in a partially tongue-in-cheek way) that in Northern Ireland we are more the true Irish than those in the Republic. We have not lost sight of our greater heritage within the British Isles (to me the identity in the south is more based on the flaky belief that you are 'not British' - this is undoubtedly true in modern political terms, but not in the greater geographical and cultural terms). Additionally, a large part of Irish mythology comes from Ulster.

If only those in the south would realise that there are a large amount of wounds that would be healed throughout the island if those in the Republic would have the decency to name their country in a much less-ambiguous fashion. Because of your choice to name your country in such an ambiguous way, we have unionist idiots here in the north that will not call themselves 'Irish', all because of the confusion that is caused by the shambolic naming of the southern Irish state. Prior to partition, all unionists/protestants would have called themselves 'Irish' - now not so. The only way they all will once more, is if those in the south have he forethought and intelligence to consider calling their state something more humble than just 'Ireland'. (I'm crossing my fingers here, but am not optimistic that the capability of that forethought in the south is actually possible...)

I agree.
We should call this country "Terry".

twinytwo · 05-12-2008 2:30pm

nuttz wrote: »

Your point?

nothing new there boyo.

move on...

as for this :"We're still Britain's bitch it seems."
No we are not, …. basis for the argument please?

If the majority of the British public want to delude themselves with the above rant so what, that doesn’t make us their bitch to use your terminology.

At this stage, I think most people in the UK have the common sense to see past what the British Empire was.

You would think thatn wouldn't you... but then one would also expect an american to be able to point out their country on a map!

twinytwo · 05-12-2008 2:34pm

Saruman wrote: »

Why is having Ireland as one of the "British Isles" misleading? We are a British isle!! We were a British isle before the english came to power on the Island they occupy now. Long before they invaded this Island.
Geographicaly we are, always have been and always will be a British isle.

Your point??.. they fact is for ireland to be called a "British Isle" is insulting to say the leat

cutesy · 05-12-2008 2:35pm

Irlbo wrote: »

Its Ireland,not Eire or 'republic' of Ireland,not Southern Ireland',not Northern Ireland,Ireland,we dont have to go by governments and establishment to be told what to call our country,and in regards British Isles,who says they are the British isles,just because some long dead person said so

When countries registered with the E.U. they gave their official country's name. Ireland is down as "The Republic of Ireland" because thats what was argeed on back in the 1920's when home rule began, the citizens of the country agreed with this also. England is down as "The United Kingdom of Great Britain" Talking about blowing your own trumpet....We should rename this country "The magnificant emerald Isle of faboulous Ireland":D

TPD · 05-12-2008 2:39pm

I didnt read the whole thread, but seriously, England has a lot more important history to be teaching.

asdasd · 05-12-2008 2:44pm

So your of those fanticists that believe that the North of Ireland is actually a part of Britain?

It is part of the UK. That is the legal truth. Read my original post again. I am making fun of English people who think that the problems in Northern Ireland ( which is, at the moment, part of the UK) are down to the Irish fighting the Irish. i throw this back in their faces by pointing out the place is in UK de jure and everybody there are UK subjects. So in legalistic terms it is the British fighting the British. ( If they dont believe that why are they there?)

Thats a quick reponse, but I can be assed explaining the planataions, colonialism, the fact that a majorityin in NI are loyalist and British, but a large minority consider themselves Irish primarily,and to explain the Good firday agreement, and so on.

British people should know what is going on in Northern Ireland because

1) It is in the UK. and
2) The problems are to do with the British Empire, and British colonialism, in Ireland.

Since they dont and they revert to the irish fighting the irish argument I have a quick reponse.

twinytwo · 05-12-2008 2:44pm

TPD wrote: »

I didnt read the whole thread, but seriously, England has a lot more important history to be teaching.

By that do you mean everything that shows them in a good light?

asdasd · 05-12-2008 2:46pm

I didnt read the whole thread, but seriously, England has a lot more important history to be teaching.

The history of the problems in Northern Ireland would actually be teaching how the UK came to be constituted as it is , i.e. to include NI. It is UK history. Why wouldnt they teach that?

BennyLava · 05-12-2008 2:47pm

A lot of people seem to have major hangups about what 'English' people think of us, really comes across as a major inferiority complex on their part.

Personally I couldn't care less, have as much interest in what the average English person thinks of Ireland, as the average Ugandan.

asdasd · 05-12-2008 2:49pm

England is down as "The United Kingdom of Great Britain" [/qote]

I doubt it. However that slip proves why we it is ok to call the Republic of Ireland, Ireland ( the legitimate shortened name anyway), it is certainly better than called "The United Kingdom of Great Britain" England.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 05-12-2008 2:53pm

twinytwo wrote: »

Your point??.. they fact is for ireland to be called a "British Isle" is insulting to say the leat

Jeez! Talk about touchy. The term British Isles is not a political one but a geographical one. Irrespective of the political situation our island sits as part of a group known as the British Isles. This does not infer any sovereignty whatsoever! Where is the insult!
The Indian Ocean and all its island states does not belong to India. Can we lay claim to total sovereignty over the Irish Sea?

TPD · 05-12-2008 3:01pm

twinytwo wrote: »

By that do you mean everything that shows them in a good light?

Nope, I mean more interesting, important things on a world scale.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 05-12-2008 3:02pm

Irlbo wrote: »

Just something that makes unionists comfortable by thinking its a strange foreign land afew miles South down the road from them,and allows britain to maintain its impereal nature by teaching the kids,that the North of Ireland is part of Britain and that the catholics and nationalists that live there are murdering terrorists,implanting a small notion in their minds that supports the occupation and that all Irish particulary ''Northern Irish'' are monsters

Norrthern Ireland is part of the UK and is British. I have no problem with Catholic/Nationalists/Republicans calling themselves Irish and don't expect them to say they're British, (kind of like Pashtuns in western Pakistan not describing themselves as Pakistani) but Northern Ireland is a part of the UK.

The media and in particular the film industry generally portrays republicans as martyrs and loyalists as butchers so I think your imperial nature is a bit off the mark.

ejmaztec · 05-12-2008 3:15pm

To avoid any further confusion, NI should be renamed Orange Republic and this bit Banana Republic. Full of fruity goodness. :P

Ste05 · 05-12-2008 3:15pm

TPD wrote: »

I didnt read the whole thread, but seriously, England has a lot more important history to be teaching.

I couldn't agree more, why on earth do people expect English/UK people to know in depth about our history, should they have the same in depth knowledge of India's history, or Canada or any of the other ex-colonial countries, should they just spend their entire education learning fully about everything that has happened to everyone that their predecessors affected and how they developed from there??

Do you think the bits and pieces of English history we are taught in school is tinted a certain direction?? I'd be pretty certain it is.

Also, southern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, meh, does it make that much odds, and to all the pedants going on about Donegal, :rolleyes:. If people want to get offended by someone in the UK using the descriptive term "southern Ireland" go ahead, but seriously cop on, those days are meant to be behind us, if it does offend you, just politely say, "actually I prefer Republic of Ireland". Everyone knows what Northern Ireland is, and so naturally to a layman who doesn't really give a toss, we would be the south??

The simple facts are, we're pretty insignificant to England, and maybe that hurts some of the more egotistical Irish people who think everyone in the world should know about everything we've gone through. Just like our History teaching they concentrate on the important moments and events in history as it affected their country, and so would obviously just touch on Irish history and how it relates to them. I don't think we teach much in schools about the political troubles in Nicaragua, or the development of Japan's economy or the plight of the Mexican people, because it simply doesn't affect us, and there's only so much history you can teach, quite alot has happened in the world over the past 100 years, never mind the past 3,000 years and beyond.

Latchy · 05-12-2008 4:43pm

BennyLava wrote: »

A lot of people seem to have major hangups about what 'English' people think of us, really comes across as a major inferiority complex on their part.

Personally I couldn't care less, have as much interest in what the average English person thinks of Ireland, as the average Ugandan.

And likewise the average Brit will feel the same about ireland .I am sure if the irish occupied the island of Gt Britain in their millions and the Brits had the republic with it's 5 million the feeling would still be mutual .

asdasd · 05-12-2008 4:59pm

I don't think we teach much in schools about the political troubles in Nicaragua, or the development of Japan's economy or the plight of the Mexican people, because it simply doesn't affect us, and there's only so much history you can teach, quite alot has happened in the world over the past 100 years, never mind the past 3,000 years and beyond.

that's absurd. have we anything to do with that?

I think we need to really spell this out for you guys....

1) England is part of the UK
2) The UK consists of Britain and Northern Ireland.
3) It used to include all of Ireland.
4) It doesnt now.
5) To be ignorant of this, if you are English, is to be ignorant of the history of the UK.

You cant actually teach UK history without teaching about Ireland. You need to teach about the penal laws ( including the discrimination against protestant sects) to teach about the plantations of Ulster, and the religious immigration to the US. You cant teach the "English" civil war without recourse to Ireland where it continued after Cromwell won in England, you can't teach the "glorious revolution" without teaching about James and the battle of the Boyne. And so on. The people at the time would have been very aware of Ireland, and the supposed Irish ( Catholic) threat.

Whats not being taught in the UK is UK history.

Latchy · 05-12-2008 5:08pm

asdasd wrote: »

that's absurd. have we anything to do with that?

I think we need to really spell this out for you guys....

1) England is part of the UK
2) The UK consists of Britain and Northern Ireland.
3) It used to include all of Ireland.
4) It doesnt now.
5) To be ignorant of this, if you are English, is to be ignorant of the history of the UK.

You cant actually teach UK history without teaching about Ireland. You need to teach about the penal laws ( including the discrimination against protestant sects) to teach about the plantations of Ulster, and the religious immigration to the US. You cant teach the "English" civil war without recourse to Ireland where it continued after Cromwell won in England, you can't teach the "glorious revolution" without teaching about James and the battle of the Boyne. And so on. The people at the time would have been very aware of Ireland, and the supposed Irish ( Catholic) threat.

Whats not being taught in the UK is UK history.

I would say that is a fair ,true and probably the best assessment on this subject .I said earlier the average brit might not know the history of many countries but he will know the geographical location and region of many others . The ones who have visited the republic in their thousends during the celtic tiger years will know a hell of a lot more about it including it's histroy than maybe previous generations of brits who may have being afarid to vist , partialy due to the NI troubles media coverage .

Gareth37 · 05-12-2008 6:04pm

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

I had the honour of reading some history books, British curriculum history books no less.. still used in England today.

The Brits in school are taught about "Irish" history in a very different way than we are, as I discovered. I put 'Irish' in quotes because it is taught as "other history of the British isles".

Irish history in the English curriculum is extremely scarce, and any mention of the island of Ireland refers to mainly Northern Ireland and the IRA terrorists killing the innocent British protestants - the rightful British landowners in Ireland who were “discriminated against” and "disrespected by the Catholics".

Ireland (as we know it) is referred to as "Southern" Ireland only, which is a part the British Isles (pictures showing Ireland and Britain with "BRITISH ISLES" plastered all over Ireland - very misleading me thinks. This is why Brits ask me if I’m “southern Irish”. I say “No, I’m not from Cork, I’m from Dublin, I’m Irish….”

According to this book, the problems in N.I are due to the... “long established British protestants” and “the Catholic differences that opposed them and wanted to invade the protestant, British land”. Also, some vague mention of England granting "Southern Ireland" some sort of limited control over “some southern areas’.

OK, let’s pretend that I'm a British kid learning history in Britain. As far as I'm concerned, the island of Ireland belongs to the UK, all the people from Ireland were originally British, and the 'troubles' on that little island are due to the minority Catholic 'backward' people, and also the IRA terrorists. It’s these pesky ‘Irish’ people that became greedy and wanted the land in Ireland for themselves.

I AM TELLING YOU NOW – I have lived and worked in the UK for 3 years – This is what the majority of English people think.

You’d be surprised at how many think that the whole Island of Ireland is ruled by London and that the Irish people are of royal blood and that the Union Jack represents the two islands. I pity these people, I pity the fact that they have been fed bull**** for most of there lives.

Why do the Brits censor their shameful history? The Germans are taught EVERYTHING about their history - I respect the Germans in that they know the TRUTH about their country’s history. I also respect the Dutch because they are taught MORE about Irish history than the Brits– I cannot count the amount of times the Dutch have apologised for mistaking me as British!

Some 'facts' from British education:

"The Gaelic language comes from Scotland. All music, language and culture originated from British Scotland ....... The Southern Irish still use old Scottish Gaelic placenames on their road signs, they cling to their links with the other British languages."

Wrong. Irish comes from Ireland. The Scottish language comes from Irish. The Scots came from Ireland!

Its all one island, call it what you want

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-12-2008 6:10pm

asdasd wrote: »

that's absurd. have we anything to do with that?

I think we need to really spell this out for you guys....

1) England is part of the UK
2) The UK consists of Britain and Northern Ireland.
3) It used to include all of Ireland.
4) It doesnt now.
5) To be ignorant of this, if you are English, is to be ignorant of the history of the UK.

You cant actually teach UK history without teaching about Ireland. You need to teach about the penal laws ( including the discrimination against protestant sects) to teach about the plantations of Ulster, and the religious immigration to the US. You cant teach the "English" civil war without recourse to Ireland where it continued after Cromwell won in England, you can't teach the "glorious revolution" without teaching about James and the battle of the Boyne. And so on. The people at the time would have been very aware of Ireland, and the supposed Irish ( Catholic) threat.

Whats not being taught in the UK is UK history.

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

I had the honour of reading some history books, British curriculum history books no less.. still used in England today.

The Brits in school are taught about "Irish" history in a very different way than we are, as I discovered. I put 'Irish' in quotes because it is taught as "other history of the British isles".

Irish history in the English curriculum is extremely scarce, and any mention of the island of Ireland refers to mainly Northern Ireland and the IRA terrorists killing the innocent British protestants - the rightful British landowners in Ireland who were “discriminated against” and "disrespected by the Catholics".

Ireland (as we know it) is referred to as "Southern" Ireland only, which is a part the British Isles (pictures showing Ireland and Britain with "BRITISH ISLES" plastered all over Ireland - very misleading me thinks. This is why Brits ask me if I’m “southern Irish”. I say “No, I’m not from Cork, I’m from Dublin, I’m Irish….”

According to this book, the problems in N.I are due to the... “long established British protestants” and “the Catholic differences that opposed them and wanted to invade the protestant, British land”. Also, some vague mention of England granting "Southern Ireland" some sort of limited control over “some southern areas’.

OK, let’s pretend that I'm a British kid learning history in Britain. As far as I'm concerned, the island of Ireland belongs to the UK, all the people from Ireland were originally British, and the 'troubles' on that little island are due to the minority Catholic 'backward' people, and also the IRA terrorists. It’s these pesky ‘Irish’ people that became greedy and wanted the land in Ireland for themselves.

I AM TELLING YOU NOW – I have lived and worked in the UK for 3 years – This is what the majority of English people think.

You’d be surprised at how many think that the whole Island of Ireland is ruled by London and that the Irish people are of royal blood and that the Union Jack represents the two islands. I pity these people, I pity the fact that they have been fed bull**** for most of there lives.

Why do the Brits censor their shameful history? The Germans are taught EVERYTHING about their history - I respect the Germans in that they know the TRUTH about their country’s history. I also respect the Dutch because they are taught MORE about Irish history than the Brits– I cannot count the amount of times the Dutch have apologised for mistaking me as British!

Some 'facts' from British education:

"The Gaelic language comes from Scotland. All music, language and culture originated from British Scotland ....... The Southern Irish still use old Scottish Gaelic placenames on their road signs, they cling to their links with the other British languages."

Wrong. Irish comes from Ireland. The Scottish language comes from Irish. The Scots came from Ireland!

Now. See what happens when you ban hash? See? SEE??

CDfm · 05-12-2008 6:10pm

Tori Numerous Garage wrote: »

Jeez! Talk about touchy. The term British Isles is not a political one but a geographical one. Irrespective of the political situation our island sits as part of a group known as the British Isles. This does not infer any sovereignty whatsoever! Where is the insult!
The Indian Ocean and all its island states does not belong to India. Can we lay claim to total sovereignty over the Irish Sea?

The Swedes send over a Christmas tree to the British which is put in Trafalgar Square every year as a thank you for their support during WWII.

Maybe we Irish should send over a bag of rotten potatoes to decorate it with to remind them of their support for us during the famine:mad:

Latchy · 05-12-2008 6:18pm

CDfm wrote: »

The Swedes send over a Christmas tree to the British which is put in Trafalgar Square every year as a thank you for their support during WWII.

Maybe we Irish should send over a bag of rotten potatoes to decorate it with to remind them of their support for us during the famine:mad:

In Germany annoying drunks are sent the bill for police time used up in dealing with them .Perhaps as ireland and UK has similar problems with annoying drunks we should do same .

ardmacha · 05-12-2008 6:20pm

I think we need to really spell this out for you guys....

1) England is part of the UK
2) The UK consists of Britain and Northern Ireland.
3) It used to include all of Ireland.
4) It doesn't now.
5) To be ignorant of this, if you are English, is to be ignorant of the history of the UK.

Spot on.

Norrthern Ireland is part of the UK and is British.

Northern Ireland is indeed part of the the UK, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
i.e. a British bit and a non British bit.
For those who are confused Northern Ireland is the non British bit.

CDfm · 05-12-2008 6:27pm

latchyco wrote: »

In Germany annoying drunks are sent the bill for police time used up in dealing with them .Perhaps as ireland and UK has similar problems with annoying drunks we should do same .

That type of behavior is so British can we send all the bills to them instead

KerranJast · 05-12-2008 6:29pm

ardmacha wrote: »

Spot on.

Northern Ireland is indeed part of the the UK, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
i.e. a British bit and a non British bit.
For those who are confused Northern Ireland is the non British bit.

British people, or Britons, are the native inhabitants of Great Britain and their descendants or citizens of the United Kingdom, of the Isle of Man, one of the Channel Islands, or of one of the British overseas territories.

Northern Ireland may not be in Great Britain but it is in the United Kingdom, citizens of which are colloquially called British. AFAIK there's no United Kingdomish.

Ste05 · 05-12-2008 6:31pm

asdasd wrote: »

You cant actually teach UK history without teaching about Ireland. You need to teach about the penal laws ( including the discrimination against protestant sects) to teach about the plantations of Ulster, and the religious immigration to the US. You cant teach the "English" civil war without recourse to Ireland where it continued after Cromwell won in England, you can't teach the "glorious revolution" without teaching about James and the battle of the Boyne. And so on. The people at the time would have been very aware of Ireland, and the supposed Irish ( Catholic) threat.

Whats not being taught in the UK is UK history.

Well I wasn't taught much about UK history in school (well at least I can't remember it if I was) so I can't refute those points without doing extensive googling which I won't bother, I'll just concede but ask a few questions at the end about them, but why they would need to learn about what happened to us once we seperated is beyond me, and why they'd be taught the ins and outs of why we are now called the Republic of Ireland and the history of Irish Home rule, what De Valera, Collins et al did and didn't do, so they'd be taught about the things from a UK perspective which will always be different from our perspective of the times, e.g. from my very limited knowledge of Cromwell and basically just from half watching that Cromwell documentary recently, they would have been taught about the slaughter that Cromwell had heard of the Protestants in Ireland by the Irish catholics (albeit over exagerated) and his reaction to it, as opposed to our teaching of the time, which TBH, I had no idea about all that went on except about the massacres that occured to the Irish by Cromwell, so it's all about perspective IMO, neither them nor us, I would guess, teach the truth about it without some embelleshing, because most probably there is no way to find out the truth any more, but it probably lies somewhere in between both viewpoints.

My point is to the UK we're not as important as we like to think we are. As I say, I don't pretend to be any more knowledgable on the subject then your average person who's picked up bits and pieces through school and general knowledge (again biased towards Ireland).

One thing though, with regard to the teaching of Penal laws and the plantation of Ulster, is that really all that important to UK history, I would be suprised if it wasn't just one plantation of many that they did, or was it the only time they did such things??

In relation to Cromwell and the English Civil war, I thought by the time Cromwell came over here, the Civil war was over and he had won??

Don't really know much about the "glorious revolution" TBH, and obviously they teach about the "Irish threat" again from their perspective, I'm sure they have different views on it to us??

I'm pretty sure I've just shown my ignorance on the subject above, but I really think some Irish are just far to egotistical about our own importance in World history. It's highly important to us the strife that went on here, but just like the examples I gave earlier in relation to how they affect us, is our history really that important to others?

Alun · 05-12-2008 6:34pm

Ste05 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more, why on earth do people expect English/UK people to know in depth about our history,

Indeed, and from what I can tell most Irish people's knowledge of the rest of English history is about on a par with most English people's knowledge of Irish history, i.e. pretty poor.

Do you think the bits and pieces of English history we are taught in school is tinted a certain direction?? I'd be pretty certain it is.

Me too, but then I think you could say that about the history being taught pretty much anywhere in the world's schools.

Ste05 · 05-12-2008 6:38pm

Alun wrote: »

Indeed, and from what I can tell most Irish people's knowledge of the rest of English history is about on a par with most English people's knowledge of Irish history, i.e. pretty poor.

Certainly mine is anyway. All I have with regard to History education is Junior cert and what I've picked up over the years. And bits and pieces I picked about the history with regard to Law in college, i.e. our whole Legal system is based on the English system and we still have some English Land laws that date back to the 1600's on our statute books. I'm pretty sure it's showing in my posts here... ahh the great unwashed it's good to be apart of them.

Alun wrote: »

Me too, but then I think you could say that about the history being taught pretty much anywhere in the world's schools.

Again i'd agree, IMO all history is taught from a certain perspective... as they say the winner gets to write the history books. But I'm sure the loosers have their own versions that are handed down.

CDfm · 05-12-2008 6:42pm

Alun wrote: »

most English people's knowledge of Irish history, i.e. pretty poor.

Its very simple -the lovely peace loving Irish fellahs were cruelly treated and brutally murdered by the bloodlust of their English neighbours.

The British are still in denial.

asdasd · 05-12-2008 6:48pm

In relation to Cromwell and the English Civil war, I thought by the time Cromwell came over here, the Civil war was over and he had won??

he hadnt won because he hadnt won in Ireland. Even if this was pre-United Kingdom, the King was king of Ireland, Scotland and England, so the civil war really continued until the Realm was subdued.

Penal laws are important because a lot of American plantations came from people leaving because of Church of England religious intolerance of sects, and the Battle of the Boyne was the end of a major European wide war and conflict.

i dont get the "We are small, they are large argument" either. Nobody would be defending on these if a US poster didnot know **** about Canada, and thought is was part of the US.

asdasd · 05-12-2008 6:50pm

most Irish people's knowledge of the rest of English history is about on a par with most English people

Cant speak for most people but i did the English kings in Junior Cert. Since they were Kings of Ireland too this would make sense.

ashyle · 05-12-2008 7:03pm

History is written by the victors. The views in the books are bound to be biased, its a British book!

I remember being in Italy ages ago and people my age asking my what it was like being in a warzone with the IRA and all this stuff.. I was like em I'm from Dublin... there's dopes everywhere

Irish history is so complex even I get confused sometimes, and I studied it

potayto · 05-12-2008 7:06pm

I live in England. My flatmate thought Ireland was part of the UK. She got an A in A-level geography.

A lot of people here don't think Ireland is a different country. They just think it's like Wales. Has it's own language and culture and stuff but is essentially part of the UK. The sad thing is I've given up correcting them.

Alun · 05-12-2008 7:15pm

potayto wrote: »

A lot of people here don't think Ireland is a different country. They just think it's like Wales. Has it's own language and culture and stuff but is essentially part of the UK. The sad thing is I've given up correcting them.

Many Irish people also use "English" and "British" interchangeably, such as when referring to the non-existent "English army" for example. I also know many people who think Holyhead is in England as well. It cuts both ways.

Ste05 · 05-12-2008 7:15pm

asdasd wrote: »

he hadnt won because he hadnt won in Ireland. Even if this was pre-United Kingdom, the King was king of Ireland, Scotland and England, so the civil war really continued until the Realm was subdued.

So basically it's from a completely different perspective, i.e. Cromwell conquering the entire United Kingdom, i.e. Ireland as a part of that, and therefore how he won the Civil war, and whereas we teach it from a completely different viewpoint, i.e. the atrocities he perpetrated over here on us. No wonder they view him as one of the greatest ever Britons and we view him as one of the worst ever.

asdasd wrote: »

Penal laws are important because a lot of American plantations came from people leaving because of Church of England religious intolerance of sects, and the Battle of the Boyne was the end of a major European wide war and conflict.

Again, not really the same perspective, the tail end of a War, I doubt it had quite the same effect as the landings of Normandy or the nuclear bombing of Japan? I doubt the Battle of the Boyne was the deciding factor in this European wide war.

asdasd wrote: »

i dont get the "We are small, they are large argument" either. Nobody would be defending on these if a US poster didnot know **** about Canada, and thought is was part of the US.

Emm that's just ignorance, if someone from America thought Canada was apart of the US, then LOL, completely different argument, I'm certainly not defending anyone that is so ignorant that they think Southern Ireland (:p) is still a part of the UK, after all as everyone has been saying, it's called The United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland. If they don't even know the proper name of their own country, then that's just sad.

The we're small and they're big argument, is also something you seem to be twisting, it's about significance in the shaping and history of the World, Rome is small, but what the Romans did and how they shaped the World needs to be learnt by everyone really, similarly with all the great empires of the past, like it or not, the UK was a huge world power back in the day. Ireland's significance on the World stage isn't nearly as important as we would like to think, we are great for emigrating to America and settling there and helping to build New York following on from the Potato Blight, and obviously US people would therefore know a bit about that famine. Again it's about perspective. Similarly UK learn about how we affected them, not how they affected us. Again perspective. If we didn't really affect somewhere or a people, why do we think they should know all about us?? Again it's just ego.

The UK has a huge history and was HIGHLY influential on the history of the World, many of the Worlds legal systems are based on Englands, they had colonies all over the World, unfortunately, we didn't.

And finally if a US person came on here and didn't know much about the history of Canada, would it really be all that bad, why would US citizens need to learn the in depth history of Canada, apart from how it affected their own history?? And that's my whole point.

05-12-2008 8:32pm

CDfm wrote: »

The Swedes send over a Christmas tree to the British which is put in Trafalgar Square every year as a thank you for their support during WWII.

The tree is given by the people of Norway, Sweden was neutral in WWII.

CDfm · 05-12-2008 8:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The tree is given by the people of Norway, Sweden was neutral in WWII.

can we still send the spuds?

Latchy · 08-12-2008 12:15am

Ste05 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I've just shown my ignorance on the subject above, but I really think some Irish are just far to egotistical about our own importance in World history. It's highly important to us the strife that went on here, but just like the examples I gave earlier in relation to how they affect us, is our history really that important to others?

I agree

Even at simplistic level it's confusing . When Dana from Londonderry NI won the euro song contest she was representing IRELAND

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-12-2008 12:34am

latchyco wrote: »

I agree

Even at simplistic level it's confusing . When Dana from Londonderry NI won the euro song contest she was representing IRELAND

Oh, well that clinches it then. Why the hell didn't you say that 192 posts ago

?

Latchy · 08-12-2008 12:36am

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Oh, well that clinches it then. Why the hell didn't you say that 192 posts ago ?

My most inspirational moements seem to come days after the horse has bolted .........just before i nod off

asdasd · 08-12-2008 12:51am

My most inspirational moements seem to come days after the horse has bolted .........just before i nod off

so it took you days to come up with what the stupidest post on the entire thread?

giggsy664 · 08-12-2008 12:58am

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't see what the big deal is actually. Often I hear Ireland as being described as the South or the North. Irish people do this aswell. I certainly do.

I'm Irish and I live in the Republic of Ireland. I do live in Cork, so southern Ireland isn't going to grind my gears at all.

So you'd prefer to see Irish History dwell on the Irish Noble families that helped the English to settle here.... The Irish themselves did much to help the English take this country from our ancestors.

Its so easy to pass all the blame to England, and ignore our own history in letting this happen.

But every country does this.

Have you ever read in depth about what happened in WW2? We hear loads about the atrocities the Germans did, but its rare we hear about Allied Sailors gunning down drowning German Sailors, or the shooting of prisoners after Normandy, or the rapes and Mass graves the Russians did in their march on Berlin...........

Its the same with Ireland. We're taught about the famine, but no effort is made to point out how we could have avoided it.... We're taught about our glorious failures with rebellions, but we don't really teach what rebels did to loyalist families, or the acts against those who sided with the crown.....

I've lost count of the number of times I've read something that either counters what I was taught in school, or wasn't even mentioned at all.

"One always speaks of dying for ones country, but never of killing for ones country"

Latchy · 08-12-2008 1:06am

asdasd wrote: »

so it took you days to come up with what the stupidest post on the entire thread?

No dude even the most serious topic threads will have a little light humor thrown in which is all it was ,nothing morer nothing less ...Gedddit ...notice the smiley ????? ???? ( you will in time ) but if you want to see my more serious ( but not to serious posts on this subject ) scroll back a bit and see .

Oh wait you probably have :rolleyes:

08-12-2008 1:06am

I really think people here have missed the point!
Foreigners have different names for countries, regions etc

60 odd Million in Britain (and many others around the world) call this "southern Ireland", get over it - it's not important!

When was the last time you referred to Germany as Doishlant (rough pronunciation) or Poland as Ploska and so on
Another classic example is Türkiye (Turkey), the Turks don't like their country being associated with a Christmas dinner!

You (or your leaders) can dictate how you name your own country -BUT! you can't dictate how foreigners name it!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-12-2008 1:08am

giggsy664 wrote: »

"One always speaks of dying for ones country, but never of killing for ones country"

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for..."

giggsy664 · 08-12-2008 1:11am

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for..."

Ah touché, Mon ami

CDfm · 08-12-2008 10:30am

micmclo wrote: »

Sure why would they, as they learn about every other country in the Empire "where the Sun never sets"

the sun never sets in Ireland - they even robbed that phrase from us:mad:

"Southern" Ireland... do you mean 'Ireland'?

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