Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Problems with Direct Debit

123457

Comments

  • #302
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Sorry. Received this early October. Basically same as above but for personal account. I got lazy / busy.

    Page 1
    Page 2
    Page 3


  • #303
    cookie1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    You wouldn't want to be in a hurry (with them, not with you!)


  • #304
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    So, BOI responded to FSO on the various points, on both my personal complaint and business one. It's a little less flippant than the original "Final Response" but substantially the same. I have about 8 more days to reply to FSO. Anyone willing to assist in the replies? If so, we can do it here or collaboratively on Google Drive. I know what I want to say, I'm just struggling in saying the same thing in different ways. I do know that BOI's response is far from sufficient and lacking responsibility or accountability. Other than some of it being non factual.

    BOI Business Response
    Page 1
    Page 2
    Page 3
    Page 4
    Page 5
    Page 6

    BOI Personal Response
    Page 1
    Page 2
    Page 3
    Page 4
    Page 5
    Page 6


    I have requested that Three let me know whether I'm on DD or DD+. I'm pretty sure it's the old DD but it was two years ago that I signed up.


  • #305
    cookie1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    RangeR wrote: »
    So, BOI responded to FSO on the various points, on both my personal complaint and business one. It's a little less flippant than the original "Final Response" but substantially the same. I have about 8 more days to reply to FSO. Anyone willing to assist in the replies? If so, we can do it here or collaboratively on Google Drive. I know what I want to say, I'm just struggling in saying the same thing in different ways. I do know that BOI's response is far from sufficient and lacking responsibility or accountability. Other than some of it being non factual.

    BOI Business Response
    Page 1
    Page 2
    Page 3
    Page 4
    Page 5
    Page 6

    BOI Personal Response
    Page 1
    Page 2
    Page 3
    Page 4
    Page 5
    Page 6
    Count me in. I'll take a look tomorrow morning.


  • #306
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    So, Three have confirmed what I thought. I'm on Direct Debit with them, not Direct Debit Plus, as asserted incorrectly by BOI in their response. Do BOI not have a written mandate from me, then? Interesting ponderings.


  • Advertisement
  • #307
    cookie1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    RangeR wrote: »
    So, Three have confirmed what I thought. I'm on Direct Debit with them, not Direct Debit Plus, as asserted incorrectly by BOI in their response. Do BOI not have a written mandate from me, then? Interesting ponderings.

    I wont gat to look at this until late tonight but I'll get to it. Interesting that from Three.


  • #308
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    k. I've formulated my reply on the business account. Feel free to comment publicly or privately. I won't past the contents here as it's the guts of 3 A4 pages.

    I'm doing up the private account now but it will be substantially similar.

    To hard, too soft, could more be put in/taken out?

    I hope to submit both tomorrow after lunch so time is off the essence :)


    Attached.

    EDIT : Private account complaint attached.

    EDIT 2 : As of today there are 16,211 views


  • #309
    wmpdd3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    Though I think the tone is warranted and I love the quotes from the DD guarantee, the use of capitol letters lets it down.

    From reading complaint letters in a different type of business, this use of capitals doesnt bode well.

    Nit sure if that is the type of feedback you wanted.

    BOI are well and truly in the wrong and how they can even consider themselves right goes to show they complete misunderstanding of the DD system .

    Where else do you have this that it is getting 16k hits?


  • #310
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    wmpdd3 wrote: »
    Where else do you have this that it is getting 16k hits?

    This thread has over 16k hits. Although I would imagine those are page impressions rather than unique users.


  • #311
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    wmpdd3 wrote: »
    Though I think the tone is warranted and I love the quotes from the DD guarantee, the use of capitol letters lets it down.

    From reading complaint letters in a different type of business, this use of capitals doesnt bode well.

    Nit sure if that is the type of feedback you wanted.

    BOI are well and truly in the wrong and how they can even consider themselves right goes to show they complete misunderstanding of the DD system .

    Where else do you have this that it is getting 16k hits?


    Yes, I agree. I'll remove the capitals and make it a little more formal. I got quite emotional writing those two documents :)


  • Advertisement
  • #312
    wmpdd3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    I don't think banks do emotion!

    other than that, great letters.


  • #313
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    OK. Thanks for all the input. I emailed both of my responses back to FSO just now. I've updated them to take a lot of the fluff out [caps, emotion etc]. And expanded on some extra points from the Rulebook.

    The documents are substantially the same but I've attached them here, if you want a read.

    Probably looking into the New Year before I get a response, so. .. Happy Christmas to all you and yours. And a thank you for sticking by this. There have been times when I didn't want to go on but got prodded and poked in the right places, both publicly and privately. It all helped.

    eMail in from FSO as I was writing this. It's a standard acknowledgement receipt but something tells me that the bank have already washed their hands.
    Dear Mr. Burke,

    I acknowledge receipt of your two submissions regarding the two separate complaints. These submissions will now be passed to the Bank. The Bank is not obliged to respond and may indicate that it does not wish to respond. If the Bank does not respond, the cases will move forward to final adjudication.

    Regards,
    Senior FSO Rep


  • #314
    cookie1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    RangeR wrote: »
    OK. Thanks for all the input. I emailed both of my responses back to FSO just now. I've updated them to take a lot of the fluff out [caps, emotion etc]. And expanded on some extra points from the Rulebook.

    The documents are substantially the same but I've attached them here, if you want a read.

    Probably looking into the New Year before I get a response, so. .. Happy Christmas to all you and yours. And a thank you for sticking by this. There have been times when I didn't want to go on but got prodded and poked in the right places, both publicly and privately. It all helped.

    eMail in from FSO as I was writing this. It's a standard acknowledgement receipt but something tells me that the bank have already washed their hands.
    good, bad, indifferent there's an end in sight!!


  • #315
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Received FSO responses on Christmas eve. I opened one and read half way through it. Didn't like what I saw so dumped them until today. See below. Bank refutes everything. No recorded calls. Refutes that Compliance Manager said what she said. Basically, it's my word against hers. Admitted that they changed the DD rules to suit them selves [Current Account T's & C's] etc.

    Business Cover
    Business 01
    Business 02

    Personal Cover
    Personal 01
    Personal 02

    BOI also included a photo copied version of their Terms and Conditions document for Personal, Golden Years, Graduate current accounts etc, in both responses. It's about 8 pages, front and back.

    On that note, I brought things to a close. It's obvious that the bank aren't going to budge. The below email was sent twice to the FSO. Once for each complaint.
    On 30 December 2013 15:13, Keith Burke wrote:
    FSO Rep,

    I would hasten to say that I refute everything the bank has responded with. However, I also don't want to go around in circles.

    There are obvious things that the bank are omitting in their replies, items that are factually incorrect, changing of Direct Debit Scheme rules to suit their interests, among others.

    It is to this end, that I leave the issue to your department to make their final judgement. I appreciate the time you spent on this.




    Kindest Regards
    Keith Burke


  • #316
    cookie1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Well done for going as far as you did against a brick wall. It's interesting to see the bank refer you to their T&C's. Whats the point of having IPSO and DD T&C's if the banks feel that their own T&C's supersede anything they agreed to with a wider body they themselves subscribe to.

    I really would query the above with the FSO but I appreciate the efforts you've gone to to date. Well done and lets hope the FSO make the right decision on this whole episode. Dont think I can thank you enough for sticking with this.


  • #317
    wmpdd3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    I am not surprised in the least, in the last few months I have seen banks do things you'd only expect of a dodgy used car sales man.

    The costumers version of events is usually seen as wing until they provide proof.

    They feel well above any body set up to monitor them and will down anyone who complains in useless irelivent paperwork as a reply.

    Also I think it is getting worse with the increased use of phone to discuss business, I record calls and ask for a letter confirming directions after each call.


  • #318
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Not wanting to take this thread too off topic, the below links provide some light reading. Listing them here as there is little or no info on the IPSO website other than FAQ's and brief points.

    SEPA Council - SEPA Direct Debits [SDD]
    SEPA Direct Debit Core Rulebook v6.1
    SEPA Direct Debit Core Rulebook v7
    SEPA Direct Debit Core Scheme e-Mandate Service Implementation Guidelines Version 6.0
    SEPA Direct Debit Core Scheme Advance Mandate Information Service Implementation Guidelines Version 6.0
    SEPA Direct Debit Core Scheme e-Mandate Service Implementation Guidelines Version 7.0
    SEPA Direct Debit Core Scheme Advance Mandate Information Service Implementation Guidelines Version 7.0
    SEPA Direct Debit Mandate

    I've excluded specific links regarding SEPA Business to Business [SDD B2B] as we're only really interested in Consumer to Business [C2B]


  • #319
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Right. Received the final ruling from FSO. Two envelopes. One for business and one for personal account. Both were substantially the same.

    FSO found in favour of the Bank in both cases. In their final ruling, they used a lot of the terminology that the Bank used in the last two correspondence and , it seems, none of my arguments.

    In essence, the bank were a third party and were not responsible in any way for money coming out of my account.

    I was awarded €100 for each complaint due the the Bank's mishandling of the issues. I don't want the ****ing money.

    I'll post up the letters soon.


  • #320
    lil5
    Registered Users Posts: 430 ✭✭lil5


    RangeR wrote: »
    ...
    FSO found in favour of the Bank in both cases. ...

    :eek:
    After following this thread pretty much from the outset this is an absolutely shocking ruling.


  • #321
    cookie1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Pretty disgusting alright. It does seem like the ombudsman did not really want to see your point of view at all. How can they think that banks are not responsible for third party activity on a customers account. They are the middle men that permit the illegal activity. It really does show how the DD system is rotten to the core and that no party (ombudsman or bank) actually care that it is. Probably because most people do not put in the effort to lodge complaints when things like this happen.


  • Advertisement
  • #322
    wmpdd3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    That just says it all.

    What ever about a private customer having to deal with this crap with dd,, there is no way a business could operate with the threat of a disputed dd coming out of their account.

    Now I understand why my mother will only deal in cheques.

    The company get the money when she has signed her cheque, any issues she can cancel the cheque from her side.

    Fair play to you for following this to the bitter end, personally I'd be getting on to the press with this, more people need know the ombudsman's interpertation of the ipso's dd guarantee.


  • #323
    zynaps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭zynaps


    wmpdd3 wrote: »
    Fair play to you for following this to the bitter end, personally I'd be getting on to the press with this, more people need know the ombudsman's interpertation of the ipso's dd guarantee.
    Yes, this is appalling. I'm disappointed that the FSO didn't even summarise RangeR's own arguments to indicate that they'd paid serious attention to them. This suggests that they have no interest whatsoever in the core issue: the DD "guarantee" is worth nothing... well hold on, €100 per complaint, minus the hours and hours of your time spent on it, minus costs for getting audited accounts etc, so MUCH LESS THAN NOTHING.

    I agree with wmpdd3 here -- people need to be aware of the fact that the DD guarantee is worth less than nothing. The scheme has become pretty much the de facto payment scheme for utilities and semi-essential services, so we've handed banks and businesses enormous power which needs responsibilities met from both.

    This case and its outcome should serve as evidence that banks displaying the "DD guarantee" text anywhere are guilty of false advertising, because there is no DD guarantee.

    Time for everyone to contact the ASAI?


  • #324
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Cheers for the words of support. I'm not sure if this is worth persuing. The Direct Debit Scheme, for all intents, is dead. SEPA is the new Scheme and the rules are quite different. Some are the same, some are different and some... well, let's just say that there might be big holes in SEPA for the average Joe.

    I'll have to read over the rules in detail but there is a question mark on the ability to cancel a Direct Debit ala the old scheme.

    NINJA EDIT : I'm in work at the mo. I'll post up the two responses when I get home tonight.


  • #325
    Legislator
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 139 ✭✭Legislator


    RangeR wrote: »
    Cheers for the words of support. I'm not sure if this is worth persuing. The Direct Debit Scheme, for all intents, is dead. SEPA is the new Scheme and the rules are quite different. Some are the same, some are different and some... well, let's just say that there might be big holes in SEPA for the average Joe.

    I'll have to read over the rules in detail but there is a question mark on the ability to cancel a Direct Debit ala the old scheme.

    NINJA EDIT : I'm in work at the mo. I'll post up the two responses when I get home tonight.

    Cancellation of a DD doesn't change with SEPA. Banks in Ireland will continue to accept cancellations from customers and you should also advise the Creditor.


  • #326
    Legislator
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 139 ✭✭Legislator


    SEPA Direct Debit - what's new and what stays the same.

    New - Consumer Rights
    1. Blacklist & whitelist - debtors can blacklist Creditors from debiting their account or alternatively provide a list to their Bank of Creditors who may debit their account.
    2. Limit the amount and frequency of a direct debit.
    3. Block your account from all direct debits
    4. Refund of unauthorised direct debit up to 13 months after it was debited.
    New - Direct Debit Scheme
    No questions asked refund of a direct debit for 8 weeks after it was debited.
    Other new
    Pay DD's to any Creditor in Europe from your Irish bank account
    New mandates - BIC / IBAN now required.
    New timelines for submitting transactions to banks
    New R transactions, returns, rejects, refusal and refunds.
    Each mandate has a unique reference number
    Stays the same
    1. Advance notice
    2. Cancellation
    3. Refuse a DD prior to date of debiting.


  • #327
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #328
    Legislator
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 139 ✭✭Legislator


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    They have no choice - its a Scheme rule.


  • #329
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #330
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Legislator wrote: »
    They have no choice - its a Scheme rule.

    Legislator, Bank of Ireland, by their own admission, acknowledge that they don't follow Scheme rules. They state, quite clearly, that their own bank terms and conditions supersede the Direct Debit Scheme. I have it in black and white, to which was their final response over Christmas, to the FSO.

    Actually, it's one of the documents I attached to a post a short while ago. I just didn't post the T's & C;s doc as it was many pages to photo and attach. It can be obtained from any branch, I'm sure.


  • Advertisement
  • #331
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Not once did the FSO, in it's final ruling acknowledge the fact that I got the run around and had to fight for my refund. In fact, it clearly states the banks line in that the refund came the very next business day. While that's technically correct, if I didn't fight for my rights, the Bank would have left me waiting for over two weeks while they get refunded by the SPONSORING bank.

    Now, tell me... How am I supposed to take solace in the Scheme rules and guarantees when the banks don't.

    I'm pissed at the outcome, but to be honest, not surprised.


  • #332
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #333
    wmpdd3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    ^^^^

    Exactly, the bank will even state what the FSO will decide on even if the issue has never arisen before.


  • #334
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    The actual findings

    Business 1, 2, 3, 4
    Personal 1, 2, 3, 4


    It should be noted that Three confirmed that my personal account was vanilla Direct Debit and not Direct Debit Plus as the Bank affirmed. I purchased my contract and phone instore, in Bray, and signed a physical mandate. I've never heard [but willing to be corrected] of Direct Debit Plus being enacted with an instore purchase. I believe it's meant for online or telesales.The FSO accepted the Bank's throwaway comment without question and Direct Debit Plus was the cornerstone of their finding of the Bank being purely a third party.

    There are many, many, many other examples of my word against theirs. None of these were acknowledged by the FSO's findings. Part of me feels that I'm being made out to be a person of un truths.

    My only recourse, as far as the official process is concerned, would be to take this to the High Court. I don't have that sort of money.


    18,060 views


  • #335
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Yeah, I'm still sore about this. I received both of my €100 cheques. I cashed the personal one. Had to bin the business one as my business ended a few months ago. Thinking back how many people in the little DD circle know of the problems yet BOI can act with impunity.

    Came across this one today. BOI royally screwing over a mortgage customer. In effect, took two Mortgage payments and says it will take a week or so to fix. Customer bank says it will take up to 72 hours to fix as they have to get the money back from BOI first.

    Legislator [IPSO account - I've never said this before], get your house in order. It's a shambles. Banks are acting with impunity with no apparent recourse by consumers. Stone wall after stone wall. That poor consumer above, fighting for their rights [that they didn't know they had] since lunch time today. Every one involved [BOI, TSB etc] basically told them to survive until mid next week. They now have to go and borrow little bits of cash from friends and family just to feed themselves for the weekend. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    It just so happens that my partner, post Constitutional Convention, is now running for elections in May. If she gets elected, I will make it my personal mission in life to fix you. Believe it.


  • #336
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Advertisement
  • #337
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Under SEPA is meaningless - who is going to enforce "under SEPA'?

    There is no will to enforce the rules of the dd scheme - plain fact.

    There are no consequences for any companies who break the rules of the scheme - plain fact.

    The dd "guarantee" is a lie - plain fact.

    SEPA for the bill payer is already a shambles.

    I am baffled that no journalist has ever torn the scheme apart.


  • #338
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #339
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    I was in Ub the other day and I spoke to two staff members who knew nothing about SEPA dd's. Previously I have had to print off the dd scheme rules and bring in a copy to UB to prove to them how you cancel a dd.

    Under SEPA UPC (and no doubt others) have brought forward the date of sending debit information to the bank by seven days. Under SEPA there is absolutely no requirement for this although UPC blame SEPA for it. The effect of it is that the bill payer is frustrated in their efforts to correct a wrong amount as UPC claim the amount is already gone to the bank. UPC regularly break the rules of the dd system in their failure to give correct notice yet they are poster boys for IPSO!

    They have even been allowed brand the DD scheme as their own!!

    Exercise your supposed rights under SEPA and reverse a dd and guess what UPC DO? Charge you an administrative fee of €50!!!

    Do IPSO give a hoot about consumers been screwed like this? Not at all.

    There is no one in the dd structure to represent bill payers interests.

    You would think that any company deliberately submitting a cancelled dd would be in serious trouble.

    The bill payer has explicitly withdrawn permission to access their accounts. So they are attempting to take money without permission. Do the banks care? Do IPSO care? Apparently there isn't even a requirement on a branch discovering these attempts to report them. So IPSO can claim they have no reports of this happening. Very convenient indeed.

    This farce will continue under SEPA's brave new world.


  • #340
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Because they can! They can make us all wait! With no consequences.

    Who is going to do anything to them? IPSO ?


  • #341
    cookie1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    So I've (what I call anyway) fallen foul of SEPA. VHI took a payment from my account for a Dental Insurance DD which I had cancelled with both my bank and VHI. VHI acknowledged the cancellation in a letter on the 13th of Feb yet took a payment from my account on the 8th of March. I contacted VHI and they acknowledge that they took the payment in error but said under the new SEPA rules they cannot reverse or payback a transaction.

    They supplied me with a Unique Mandate Number and Credit ID Number which I have to fill into an Ulster Bank form to reverse the payment (I'm not permitted to do this over the phone). So I have to get time off work or find a branch (thankfully) open on a Saturday and do this.

    Dont get me wrong I can appreciate mistakes do happen but it's ridiculous that the customer has to do the leg work to get their money back after doing the leg work to formally and properly cancel a payment with both a bank and with a company. "We screwed up but can you go fix it for us now please!"

    I wonder how many "small" payments will go uncollected due to the convoluted way of having to get your own money back.


  • Advertisement
  • #342
    wmpdd3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    Can Ulster not email you the form and you post it back?

    I agree its crap having to go into the branch for something so trivial.


  • #343
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Have you asked your bank why they allowed a cancelled direct debit to be paid.

    There really is no excuse for submitting a direct debit that was cancelled over a month ago.

    Once again we see the nonsense that SEPA is for the bill payer and the fact that when there are no consequences for companies or banks that fail in their obligations under the scheme the result is chaos for the bill payer.

    All the so called protection and rules in the world are useless when they are not enforced.

    VHI have taken money without your permission. Your bank has allowed them to do this.

    Who suffers? You.


  • #344
    cookie1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    wmpdd3 wrote: »
    Can Ulster not email you the form and you post it back?

    I agree its crap having to go into the branch for something so trivial.

    No I have to present myself at the bank with ID etc... This despite the fact that calling them I had to give over my account security details etc. Go figure.


  • #345
    cookie1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    dub45 wrote: »
    Have you asked your bank why they allowed a cancelled direct debit to be paid.

    There really is no excuse for submitting a direct debit that was cancelled over a month ago.

    Once again we see the nonsense that SEPA is for the bill payer and the fact that when there are no consequences for companies or banks that fail in their obligations under the scheme the result is chaos for the bill payer.

    All the so called protection and rules in the world are useless when they are not enforced.

    VHI have taken money without your permission. Your bank has allowed them to do this.

    Who suffers? You.

    To be honest I dont have the energy to find out why and I presume they'll say the usual. At least with the old way when they stole your money they had to sort it out (they'd refund you eventually) even if it took time. Now they steal it and it's up to you to sort it.


  • #346
    Yggr of Asgard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,231 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    It seams to me that these problems are partly due to the way Irish banks have implemented this and the lack of correct online facilities to deal with Direct Debits.

    My German bank tells me days in advance about upcoming direct debits as a pre-advise with the full details including amounts and actual debit date.

    On each Direct Debit that goes out I have the option to "return" with a choice of reasons plus I have the option to block the DD for some intervals (like next x occurrences) or for ever and that includes the "Creditor Identifier" to stop a company from doing it again.

    The exception is DD over 3000€ for which I need to call them, but anything below that I do all online in my banking interface.

    So if my German bank can do it, why can't Irish banks?

    I love SEPA so far, it made my live easier and cheaper as the conditions on the German account are great, it costs nothing for anything.


  • #347
    cookie1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    dublin-texas wrote: »
    It seams to me that these problems are partly due to the way Irish banks have implemented this and the lack of correct online facilities to deal with Direct Debits.

    My German bank tells me days in advance about upcoming direct debits as a pre-advise with the full details including amounts and actual debit date.

    On each Direct Debit that goes out I have the option to "return" with a choice of reasons plus I have the option to block the DD for some intervals (like next x occurrences) or for ever and that includes the "Creditor Identifier" to stop a company from doing it again.

    The exception is DD over 3000€ for which I need to call them, but anything below that I do all online in my banking interface.

    So if my German bank can do it, why can't Irish banks?

    I love SEPA so far, it made my live easier and cheaper as the conditions on the German account are great, it costs nothing for anything.

    Clearly a well thought out system there.


  • #348
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    To be honest I dont have the energy to find out why and I presume they'll say the usual. At least with the old way when they stole your money they had to sort it out (they'd refund you eventually) even if it took time. Now they steal it and it's up to you to sort it.

    Cookie, I understand that you don't have the energy and if that really is the case, I won't push it. The fact is, this part hasn't changed. The bank is still obligated to refund your money now, today. If your local branch aren't being of assistance, which should be your first port of call, then ring their head office and make a formal complaint.

    Relevant text from the actual rules URL="http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/knowledge_bank_detail.cfm?documents_id=597"]V7[/URL, uninterpreted
    Page 27 wrote:
    If the request for a Refund concerns an Unauthorised Transaction (see definition in section 4.4 under Refunds), a Debtor must present its claim to the Debtor Bank within 13 months of the debit date in accordance with Article 58 of the Payment Services Directive. Section 4.6.4, PT-04.21 provides guidance for Participants to determine whether a transaction may be considered as being unauthorised.
    Page 28 wrote:
    Once a Debtor Bank has determined that a transaction is unauthorised in accordance with Article 58 and 59 of the Payment Services Directive, a Debtor Bank is obliged to immediately refund the Debtor with the amount of the SEPA Direct Debit pursuant to Articles 59 and 60 of the Payment Services Directive.


    IMPORTANT : VHI are colouring the water. It's not that they can't. They chose not to implement this service.
    Page 29 wrote:
    Reversals: When the Creditor concludes that a Collection should not have been processed a Reversal may be used after the Clearing and Settlement by the Creditor to reimburse the Debtor with the full amount of the erroneous Collection. The Rulebook does not oblige Creditor Banks to offer the Reversal facility to the Creditors. For Debtor Banks, it is mandatory to handle Reversals initiated by Creditors or Creditor Banks. Creditors are not obliged to use the Reversal facility but if they do so, a Reversal initiated by the Creditor must (if the Creditor Bank offers a Reversal service) be handled by the Creditor Bank and the Debtor Bank. Reversals may also be initiated by the Creditor Bank for the same reasons. Debtor Banks do not have to carry out any checks on Reversals received.


    There is more information in the Rulebook but some if it is quite technical and I also don't want to bog you down. What's above is enough to demand your money back today.


  • #349
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #350
    cookie1977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Well talking to them this morning they said they could not. I'll contact my branch in a while and see about that.


  • #351
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    Well talking to them this morning they said they could not. I'll contact my branch in a while and see about that.

    Who said? The only UB you should be talking to is your local branch. The one that holds your current account services by SEPA.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement