Electric Ireland Stops Feed In Tariff for Microgenerators

quentingargan · 23-10-2014 10:24pm #1

Up to now, Ireland had one of the worst feed in tariff regimes in the EU. Electric Ireland would buy back surplus electricity from solar photovoltaic or other microgenerators for 9c per kwhr. That is to be scrapped after 31st December.

The financial case for those of us trying to sell photovoltaic panels to domestic users falls apart if you cannot get paid for electricity exported to the grid.

Most countries have various carrots to encourage solar PV on the grid. We only have a stick. New houses must produce renewable energy to meet Part L of the building code, and solar PV is by far the cheapest way to do it, but it would be nice to get something for the surplus power.

See Electric Ireland announcement here.

Superdaddy · 24-10-2014 9:50pm

I had planned on installing solar PV on my house, connection would be 2015. Does this mean that I will get nothing for the electricity I export to the grid?

Ronan Raver77 · 24-10-2014 10:23pm

I was hoping to do the same over the next 2/3 years!!

bonzodog2 · 25-10-2014 12:30pm

Darn. How forward-thinking of them :rolleyes:

quentingargan · 25-10-2014 1:11pm

Superdaddy wrote: »

I had planned on installing solar PV on my house, connection would be 2015. Does this mean that I will get nothing for the electricity I export to the grid?

Correct. De Nada. Unless things change (and I believe they will absolutely have to. - this position is completely untenable.

The viability of the system depends on how much electricity you use during the day. You can use a device like i-Boost to run your immersion on surplus PV power. In the past I argued against this approach because it is better to do this at night using off-peak power, but the new reality imposed by Electric Ireland makes this a better option.

pawrick · 25-10-2014 1:20pm

There goes my plan for next years home improvements.

quentingargan · 25-10-2014 1:42pm

pawrick wrote: »

There goes my plan for next years home improvements.

Yes - I think the main market for solar photovoltaic panels now is going to be a minimalist box-ticking exercise for meeting Part L of the building code on new houses. Most people doing this will later fit devices to divert surplus electricity to their immersion (these are available for about €200) and the grid will not benefit at all from the electricity produced.

This is a disgrace, coming in a week when Europe is agreeing new CO2 emission targets, and Ireland is seeking agri-exemptions. Where renewable energy is concerned, we have become a one-trick pony relying exclusively on wind :mad:

gman2k · 25-10-2014 4:35pm

quentingargan wrote: »

This is a disgrace, coming in a week when Europe is agreeing new CO2 emission targets, and Ireland is seeking agri-exemptions. Where renewable energy is concerned, we have become a one-trick pony relying exclusively on wind :mad:

Q, do you know if the Green Party are aware of the upcoming change?
I had plans for a 2-3kw PV installation next year.

26-10-2014 3:32am

freddyuk · 26-10-2014 9:16am

Politics apart the fact the financial benefit was so small actually means the downside is a lot less, in fact. In the UK the benefit was cut from 43p to 20p overnight and this caused the growing renewables industry to collapse.
The benefit of exporting surplus power to the "country" has been diminished as said. The whole point of making it viable is not to sell 18c worth of power for 9c but to use the power on site thus getting 18c worth for zero (once the capital cost has been taken into account). It means a little more planning and utilisation of some gadgets to control the onsite management but this also focuses the mindset to the benefit of the homeowner. Whole house management of power is no bad thing to reduce overall consumption and minimise waste.
Also in Ireland there is little regulation on what equipment you can or can't use so choice is widened and prices could be lower.
In UK you cannot self install your PV and get any tariff payments so if the tariffs go then anyone can install DIY as that regulation is no longer viable.
However the design of any PV system is critical to it's long term viability so getting professional advice on this aspect is very important.
So don't give up on PV - do the sums and seek professional advice from more than one supplier.

quentingargan · 26-10-2014 10:59am

It is almost impossible to get your export down to zero and use all of the power produced for useful purposes that value the premium primary energy conversion factor of electricity.

It takes 2.4Kw of oil or gas to produce 1kw of electricity. Using solar PVs to produce electricity and then using that electricity to heat water degrades that 2.4 multiplier.

Most people would agree that 9c was a tad low, but it is better to export electricity so that its premium value is utilised.

Ecologically, it is also better to export the electricity during the day when industry is using power and the grid is under load, and then if you want to heat your water with electricity, do so at night when there is often a surplus on the grid from wind.

Yes - there will be a plethora of devices sold to use your immersion on surplus power rather than export it to ESB for free, but I think that's a pity.

Superdaddy · 28-10-2014 9:52am

It makes no sense and seems a callous way to exploit those who have invested in these systems. They will still accept the electricity but they won't pay for it. So this means there is no payback for solar PV. And as more and more people install them to comply with part L they will get more free power. It's sickening!
Is there any other way to comply with part L without giving away free power?

BryanF · 28-10-2014 10:35am

Superdaddy wrote: »

Is there any other way to comply with part L without giving away free power?

yes

quentingargan · 28-10-2014 12:41pm

Superdaddy wrote: »

It makes no sense and seems a callous way to exploit those who have invested in these systems. They will still accept the electricity but they won't pay for it. So this means there is no payback for solar PV. And as more and more people install them to comply with part L they will get more free power. It's sickening!
Is there any other way to comply with part L without giving away free power?

You can also opt for a wood pellet stove, solar thermal or a heat pump as renewable energy options. Solar thermal has been the more popular, but there is a maintenance cost, and not all households use the hot water to justify it.

There are numerous devices on offer here and in the UK for about €250 that divert all surplus power to an immersion heater, so you use as much of your solar electricity as you can, and dump the surplus to an immersion. Arguably that is a lower maintenance and lower capital cost way of heating your water anyhow. And it meets part L.

But from an environmental point of view, these devices prevent useful green electricity from being exported to the grid, which is completely daft.

I think this has to be rolled back on by Electric Ireland, and by the Minister. It would be absurd that we rely entirely on wind to produce all our renewable energy when it can be produced for a similar price by solar, within the local grid, right in the middle of Dublin for example. There needs to be Government direction on this.

Coles · 28-10-2014 3:09pm

Could someone explain this to me (Quentin? or some other clever chap).

Electric Ireland Announcement

We are happy to announce that we are extending our micro-generation pilot scheme export payment rate of 9.0 cent per kWh to our existing domestic customers until 31st December 2015. This will be our fifth year offering the pilot scheme to support our customers installing domestic micro-generators.
Please note that from 31st December 2014 the pilot scheme be closed to new customers.
ESB Networks still accept new applications to connect micro-generators to the electricity network, however it no longer offers its micro-generation support package of (i) a free installation of an import/export meter and (ii) support payment of of 10 cent/kWh. Existing customers who successfully applied on to the scheme by Feb 2012 will continue to receive support from ESB Networks until the fifth anniversary of their contract start date (ending 2014-2017).

Link to Electric Ireland website.

If I get my application in before the end of the year what will I qualify for and for how long? When will the I lose the Electric Ireland 9c rate and the additional 10c REFIT?

Thanks!

quentingargan · 28-10-2014 3:18pm

Coles wrote: »

Could someone explain this to me (Quentin? or some other clever chap).

Link to Electric Ireland website.

If I get my application in before the end of the year what will I qualify for and for how long? When will the I lose the Electric Ireland 9c rate and the additional 10c REFIT?

Thanks!

Electric Ireland originally introduced this "pilot" scheme about five years ago. At the time they offered 9c tariff plus a 10c top-up which was guaranteed for five years.

The 10c top-up was done away with in Feb. 2012. Since then, new participants in the scheme only got 9c. Old participants continued to get the 10c top-up until their five years is up.

If you join the scheme now, you get 9c. This 9c was always subject to review each year. So it is only guaranteed for the next year. None of us ever thought it would be revised downwards, but in light of the scheme being scrapped to new entries, all bets are off on whether those who are in the scheme will also find the 9c being phased out or dropped at some point in the future.

28-10-2014 3:22pm

Seems to me they don't want the competition. I'd much prefer to see the current grid brought up to spec. to support micro grids and local generation.
For all appearances it would seem that they're invested in making demand appear to require the outlay of huge industrial turbines and a new cable network to support them and export it.

Coles · 28-10-2014 3:30pm

@Quentin, Thanks a million for taking the time to clarify.

The problem here is a political one. There is no pressure on Electric Ireland to support Microgeneration, and their competitors couldn't be bothered either. They won't do anything to support Microgeneration when they don't have to.

Just thinking out loud, but is there the opportunity to establish a co-op with an electricity supply licence to purchase from microgenerators and resell to 'Green' businesses?

Didn't Cool-Power get a licence?

quentingargan · 28-10-2014 3:45pm

Coles wrote: »

The problem here is a political one. There is no pressure on Electric Ireland to support Microgeneration, and their competitors couldn't be bothered either. They won't do anything to support Microgeneration when they don't have to.

Just thinking out loud, but is there the opportunity to establish a co-op with an electricity supply licence to purchase from microgenerators and resell to 'Green' businesses?

Didn't Cool-Power get a licence?

That's an interesting idea, but I wouldn't relish the bureaucracy of setting up an electricity supply company and getting the necessary licenses. To my mind, that would be a work-around of last resort.

You're right about Electric Ireland's competitors (even Airtricity) being bothered.

The easiest solution is to make it mandatory for all electricity providers to buy back power. ESB networks would give the meter data to any licensed operator to facilitate this, but it requires action from the Minister and/or CER to put a system in place. This is how it is done everywhere else - I don't see why Ireland should have to set up external co-operatives to run a scheme like this. The bureaucracy would require a subsidy, but also, microgenerators should be able to tap into PSO funding the same way that wind farms do.

gman2k · 28-10-2014 4:19pm

This move by EI will surely kill PV micro generation in Ireland in particular, as the average home user will not be able to utilise the electricity during the day when the sun is shining.
For me, diverting spare elec to immersion would be pointless as I already have solar water heating...
Yes I could go wind, and use more of the power when the house is occupied, but maintenance issues, towers, noise etc....
Political pressure is needed, and questions need to be put yo the minister.
Would be interesting to find out if this ending of the scheme was done under Phil Hogan's watch.

quentingargan · 28-10-2014 5:01pm

gman2k wrote: »

Would be interesting to find out if this ending of the scheme was done under Phil Hogan's watch.

This is really the remit of Alex White or Pat Rabbitte as Minister for Energy, rather than Environment. In fairness to Electric Ireland, my recollection from the introduction of the scheme was that they had expected that other providers such as Bord Gais, Airtricity etc., would follow suit. The Commissioner for Energy Regulation should oblige all electricity providers, not just Electric Ireland, to have a feed in tariff for renewable energy.

freddyuk · 29-10-2014 9:31am

quentingargan wrote: »

Electric Ireland originally introduced this "pilot" scheme about five years ago. At the time they offered 9c tariff plus a 10c top-up which was guaranteed for five years.

The 10c top-up was done away with in Feb. 2012. Since then, new participants in the scheme only got 9c. Old participants continued to get the 10c top-up until their five years is up.

If you join the scheme now, you get 9c. This 9c was always subject to review each year. So it is only guaranteed for the next year. None of us ever thought it would be revised downwards, but in light of the scheme being scrapped to new entries, all bets are off on whether those who are in the scheme will also find the 9c being phased out or dropped at some point in the future.

The "top up" of 10c was from ESB and the 9c from EI. I suspect we will get 9c until it can be quietly dropped as there are about 400 of us which is not a big number to complain (or impact the budget). Giving green energy back to the grid is fine unless we are getting screwed already and making up for inadequacies in the government which would be most peoples problem. So it comes down sadly to looking after No1. Using everything on site is economically the sensible thing to do. The surplus has to be exported to the grid unless you want to run a hybrid battery system which is currently possible but not viable based on purely economics. However you would be protected from power cuts.:)

ivorfa · 29-10-2014 9:40am

Would it be viable to run a heat pump during the day using pv or would the pay back of the system take to long if the feed in tariff were to stop

29-10-2014 12:58pm

freddyuk wrote: »

The surplus has to be exported to the grid unless you want to run a hybrid battery system which is currently possible but not viable based on purely economics.

Running batteries is a whole nuther fish of kettles.
There's no benefit unless you cycle them, otherwise you won't have anywhere to store your daily harvest. Losing bundles to charge inefficiency.
Cycling them means maintence and supply change-over. It's the hands on approach.
Makes you energy conscious alright.

quentingargan · 30-10-2014 1:50am

ivorfa wrote: »

Would it be viable to run a heat pump during the day using pv or would the pay back of the system take to long if the feed in tariff were to stop

The danger is that the heat pump might sometimes run with the panels not producing enough, causing you to import electricity at the higher daytime rate.

Coles · 30-10-2014 7:44am

quentingargan wrote: »

The easiest solution is to make it mandatory for all electricity providers to buy back power.

I know I'm preaching to the choir on this, but what is particularly grievous is that the electricity supplied into the grid by microgenerators is obviously worth far closer to the consumer rate. The electricity is used locally by neighbouring consumers without any transmission losses, unlike the Grid electricity that it has offset. I can understand a lower rate for large remote Wind farms but to treat distributed generation (and particularly domestic solar PV) in this way is wrong. It's theft.

freddyuk · 31-10-2014 10:19am

Last year Jan 2013 -2014 I exported 1088kWh back to the grid. I was paid €200. Now my system is fully functional and tweaked that amount will be going up although I am using more on site the total installation is bigger so overall I should be getting more net export payment. I have this until 2017 when my contract runs out. I can be magnanimous and supply my local community or install a larger thermal store... mmmm.... well for now I am going to supply the local community. (but not today it's dark!):(

galwaytt · 31-10-2014 1:44pm

freddyuk wrote: »

Last year Jan 2013 -2014 I exported 1088kWh back to the grid. I was paid €200. Now my system is fully functional and tweaked that amount will be going up although I am using more on site the total installation is bigger so overall I should be getting more net export payment. I have this until 2017 when my contract runs out. I can be magnanimous and supply my local community or install a larger thermal store... mmmm.... well for now I am going to supply the local community. (but not today it's dark!):(

....buy a big buffer tank with heating element and dump all your power into that, and then heat your UFH and DHW from the buffer.

It just goes to show the whole 'Green' incentive which was at the behest of the GP, including low CO2 cars, was a complete and utter con job.

galwaytt · 31-10-2014 1:51pm

Superdaddy wrote: »

It makes no sense and seems a callous way to exploit those who have invested in these systems. They will still accept the electricity but they won't pay for it. So this means there is no payback for solar PV. And as more and more people install them to comply with part L they will get more free power. It's sickening!
Is there any other way to comply with part L without giving away free power?

If I take your a latter point first: yes, build better buildings that are less reliant on energy in the first place is the most obvious answer. Then no matter what policies come & go, the physics of your fabric will be the controlling influence, not some numpty behind a desk.

As for the former, I agree it's sickening. Damn maddening actually. But it does bring up a point that was made to me about 4 weeks ago: a development of 60+ houses were being built where the Part L contribution via PV was the only method of getting the houses through Part L - such was the 'low spec' of the fabric. The builder was only interested in cost, and deigned that 2.5k per house on PV allowed him to tick that box + and 'sell' the PV feature as lowering the cost to run the home to prospective buyers.

Now that the financial cost is wiped out, will he still think the same........?? ...be interesting to see how that works out...........

gman2k · 31-10-2014 2:38pm

Article in todays Indo by Paul Melia
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/esb-ends-scheme-for-homeowners-who-want-to-sell-power-30706655.html

31-10-2014 3:31pm

Coles wrote: »

The electricity is used locally by neighbouring consumers without any transmission losses, unlike the Grid electricity that it has offset.

Power on your roof is worth roughly twice what the steam turbines are producing.

Coles · 01-11-2014 8:50am

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Power on your roof is worth roughly twice what the steam turbines are producing.

But yet they were paying less than half the consumer rate. Theft.

:mad:

Coles · 01-11-2014 8:58am

Here's the EU resolution that has been adopted that makes support for Microgeneration an integral part of EU energy policy.

Link to Resolution 2012/2930(RSP)

Electric Ireland will do absolutely nothing to properly support Microgeneration, so the only way forward is to lobby the politicians immediately so that a proper scheme can be put in place after Electric Ireland's sham scheme ends.

gman2k · 01-11-2014 9:19am

/\ Link: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popups/summary.do?id=1302967&t=e&l=en

quentingargan · 02-11-2014 4:34pm

gman2k wrote: »

Article in todays Indo by Paul Melia
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/esb-ends-scheme-for-homeowners-who-want-to-sell-power-30706655.html

A good piece also in today's Sunday Times, but not online. If we can get enough publicity for this issue and bring political pressure to bear, this situation could easily be reversed.

The situation before now was not great - there was no feed in tariff for industry, and only Electric Ireland was offering to buy power, with no long term assurance of ongoing income.

Although this latest move by Electric Ireland is a setback, it is perhaps the catalyst that was needed to bring about a change that was badly overdue.

Coles · 02-11-2014 10:26pm

quentingargan wrote: »

Although this latest move by Electric Ireland is a setback, it is perhaps the catalyst that was needed to bring about a change that was badly overdue.

I completely agree. Sometimes it's necessary for things to become a crisis in order to get the problem addressed. The situation as it was before now was completely unsustainable and unfair. Now it's so patently ridiculous that it has to be dealt with.

Passive House Plus/Construct Ireland would be a good place to get this issue highlighted.

Politically, I think Ministers like Simon Coveney (Agriculture) would be worth informing, but also Alan Kelly (Environment) and Paudie Coffey (Housing, Planning and Co-ordination of the Construction 2020 Strategy). On a local level people should inform their local councillors and TDs, both opposition and government. If nothing is introduced in January 2015 then it's going to be a long haul to get the issue addressed and the best chance will be to get the current opposition parties and independents to champion it.

Might be an idea to get a draft letter together if anyone out there is good with the auld words and stuff...?

Coles · 02-11-2014 10:31pm

Just to add...

Worth keeping track of all journalists and publications that show an interest in the issue and keeping them well informed as the issue evolves.

unkel · 04-11-2014 11:07am

Surely it would be possible to force all suppliers to take on grid feeding with a tariff around what it costs them to generate electricity (I presume this is a low rate, probably well under 9c)

I'm normally not in favour of subsidies, but look what a hefty subsidy on PV panels did in the Netherlands, or even more extreme, in Belgium?

Plenty of houses there with 10-20 100w PV panels on them. Most of the investment still done by the home owner and a permanent reduction of CO2 / dependence on importing energy from abroad. Surely a win-win for everyone?

quentingargan wrote: »

A good piece also in today's Sunday Times, but not online.

Read it yesterday. With yourself in it. Picture and all

Coles · 04-11-2014 12:42pm

unkel wrote: »

Surely it would be possible to force all suppliers to take on grid feeding with a tariff around what it costs them to generate electricity (I presume this is a low rate, probably well under 9c)

Or how about having absolutely no subsidies whatsoever!

No subsidies for homeowners who install solar panels (there are none at the moment), and no subsidies for Electric Ireland/ESB who have a monopoly to take electricity from producers at any price they like, add 150% margin to it and sell it (at no cost to them) to neighbouring consumers.

The only fair way is to reimburse the producer for what the electricity is worth. Sure, a coal powered plant can produce electricity at 8-9c/unit, but it costs them another 12c to get it to the consumer.

Clean renewable MicroGeneration shouldn't have to subsidise Electric Ireland and the filthy coal/oil/methane power plants.

unkel · 04-11-2014 1:08pm

Coles wrote: »

Clean renewable MicroGeneration shouldn't have to subsidise Electric Ireland and the filthy coal/oil/methane power plants.

Maybe I wasn't very clear. I meant force the electricity suppliers to pay micro generators the same rate as they pay other suppliers / what it costs to produce it themselves

And then for the government to pay a subsidy to private individuals buying PV panels

This is what many houses in the Netherlands and Belgium look like these days thanks to subsidies on PV panels:

Obviously the subsidy will cost the state money. They do get VAT back and it will support local providers (and employment) like Quentin's company

Best of all is that the government gets private individuals to do most of the hard work of reducing CO2 / increase renewables that they have committed themselves to at a European / global level

And as the prices for panels (more global production) and installation (more local competition) comes down, the state can decrease the subsidy and after a few years remove it altogether.

Result: Permanently reduced CO2 / increased renewables
Cost: one off subsidy

quentingargan · 04-11-2014 2:23pm

unkel wrote: »

And as the prices for panels (more global production) and installation (more local competition) comes down, the state can decrease the subsidy and after a few years remove it altogether.

Result: Permanently reduced CO2 / increased renewables
Cost: one off subsidy

Yes - this has already happened thanks to subsidies in other countries. The UK initially had a feed in tariff of 45p for solar PV electricity, and arguably is now lumbered with long-term contracts to pay this price for electricity for the next 20 odd years. Spain likewise had a 45c feed in tariff with which it is now lumbered. Ireland sat on the sidelines for all this phase of development.

Thanks to the efforts made in these countries, the cost has come down to the point that many householders are happy enough to install systems with a 9c feed in tariff, which is pretty much the same cost paid wholesale for electricity from gas fired plants, except that it has to be delivered along the grid.

We are already late in playing our part in this technology. The least we can do is support it now that it has become feasible.

I think the argument is the one presented by Colm McCarthy - we have already built the gas fired stations, so we should use them to recoup the cost, rather than have green electricity and all our peaking stations from gas fired systems on stand-by.

gman2k · 04-11-2014 3:07pm

If the same effort was put into promoting micro generation as there is in the Bike to Work scheme, there would be a greater national interest and benefit.
I'm all for the Bike to Work scheme (used it myself) but the Co2 reduction element is farcical!

bluesteel · 04-11-2014 5:40pm

gman2k wrote: »

If the same effort was put into promoting micro generation as there is in the Bike to Work scheme, there would be a greater national interest and benefit.
I'm all for the Bike to Work scheme (used it myself) but the Co2 reduction element is farcical!

have you any calculations to make that comparison? You haven't factored in the improvements in health, traffic, enjoyment of course!

Seems to me like a bunch of hobbyists (and suppliers to same) are annoyed that their pet projects which produce piddling amounts of electricity (unpredictable of course) will no longer be able to sell at above the true economic value.

The Government efforts should be concentrated on larger scale wind projects - PV in Ireland will require much reduced panel costs.

The idea that by subsidising PV panels made in China we [tiny, bankrupt Ireland] can get things to a scale where they'll be suddenly economic is farcical. It's like Ireland spending a fortune on CO2 reduction when China's belching out vast amounts of CO2

quentingargan · 04-11-2014 5:48pm

bluesteel wrote: »

have you any calculations to make that comparison?

Seems to me like a bunch of hobbyists (and suppliers to same) are annoyed that their pet projects which produce piddling amounts of electricity (unpredictable of course) will no longer be able to sell at above the true economic value.

The Government efforts should be concentrated on larger scale wind projects - PV in Ireland will require much reduced panel costs.

The idea that by subsidising PV panels made in China we can get things to a scale where they'll be suddenly economic is farcical. It's like Ireland spending a fortune on CO2 reduction when China's belching out vast amounts of CO2

I don't think this needs to be subsidised to any great extent. I am all for wind farms, but the point is that solar electricity from households was being sold to the grid for roughly the same price, and this was abolished.

In fact, solar complements wind very nicely on the network - by and large when the wind speed is low, you have more light. Solar panels produce all of their power during the daytime when demand is generally higher. Wind produces 1/3rd of its power at night when we're asleep.

A grid based on increased levels of renewable energy requires a combination of mixed components (wind, hydro, solar, biomass, CHP), demand side management (such as electric cars charging off-peak, and heat pumps), and peaking plants such as gas that will run on standby, to be called in only when needed. It is the peaking part element that is effectively a subsidy because the hardware is lying idle, but if you want renewable energy, there isn't an alternative.

Coles · 04-11-2014 8:12pm

bluesteel wrote: »

have you any calculations to make that comparison? You haven't factored in the improvements in health, traffic, enjoyment of course!

Seems to me like a bunch of hobbyists (and suppliers to same) are annoyed that their pet projects which produce piddling amounts of electricity (unpredictable of course) will no longer be able to sell at above the true economic value.

How much do you pay for your electricity? Does that price reflect it's 'true economic value'? Perhaps you could explain what this term means to you? Thanks.

The Government efforts should be concentrated on larger scale wind projects - PV in Ireland will require much reduced panel costs.

Are you aware of the cost of solar panels? The price has collapsed in the last 2-3 years. Check it out.

The idea that by subsidising PV panels made in China we [tiny, bankrupt Ireland] can get things to a scale where they'll be suddenly economic is farcical.

Seriously. Read up on it.

It's like Ireland spending a fortune on CO2 reduction when China's belching out vast amounts of CO2

No. MicroGenerated Solar PV is becoming cost effective against coal/oil/methane regardless of the benefits of reducing our emissions of CO2. Seriously. Read up on it.

Coles · 04-11-2014 8:33pm

Great to see one of our MEPs making an effort to push MicroGeneration in the European Parliament. About time!

Lynn Boylan MEP wrote:

Given the important role microgeneration has in offering opportunities to households, SMEs and both rural and urban communities to produce their own energy with a focus on renewable and sustainable energy forms:
1. Does the Commission currently have any plans to produce a directive on microgeneration?
2. Can the Commission outline which funding streams or programmes are available for microgeneration?
3. What measures has the Commission taken and what measures does it plan to take to encourage the uptake of microgeneration in the EU?

recedite · 04-11-2014 11:03pm

quentingargan wrote: »

There are numerous devices on offer here and in the UK for about €250 that divert all surplus power to an immersion heater, so you use as much of your solar electricity as you can, and dump the surplus to an immersion. Arguably that is a lower maintenance and lower capital cost way of heating your water anyhow. And it meets part L.

But from an environmental point of view, these devices prevent useful green electricity from being exported to the grid, which is completely daft.

Technically, a typical Solar PV array would not allow a new house to meet Part L unless the surplus power was being exported. This is because of the SEAI stipulation that the electricity being produced "displaces" incoming mains electricity, and is therefore counted at the 2.5 multiplier rate. If it is only heating water, it is only displacing energy from the central heating system. So the array would have to be 2.5 times bigger, and there would not be enough space on the roof.
The most obvious con that would most likely happen is that the import/export meter would be installed at the time of first connection of the new house to the mains, just to satisfy the Part L. Then the diverter to the immersion would be retrofitted, to avoid the power being given away free to EI. So no power would ever be exported.

How much are these import/export meters going to cost anyway?

Also the EI website announcement does not actually say they intend to stop paying the 9c. They commit to paying it up until Dec 2015, and say they will charge for the meters. Buying it for 9c and selling it on to your next door neighbour for 18c seems a good business model for them. Why would they give it up?

In fairness to EI, they are entitled to a level playing field in the market. The regulator should force them to buy the power for more than 9c/unit, but equally all the other electricity providers should be bound by the same rules.

quentingargan · 05-11-2014 12:00am

recedite wrote: »

Technically, a typical Solar PV array would not allow a new house to meet Part L unless the surplus power was being exported. This is because of the SEAI stipulation that the electricity being produced "displaces" incoming mains electricity, and is therefore counted at the 2.5 multiplier rate. If it is only heating water, it is only displacing energy from the central heating system. So the array would have to be 2.5 times bigger, and there would not be enough space on the roof.
The most obvious con that would most likely happen is that the import/export meter would be installed at the time of first connection of the new house to the mains, just to satisfy the Part L. Then the diverter to the immersion would be retrofitted, to avoid the power being given away free to EI. So no power would ever be exported.

How much are these import/export meters going to cost anyway?

Also the EI website announcement does not actually say they intend to stop paying the 9c. They commit to paying it up until Dec 2015, and say they will charge for the meters. Buying it for 9c and selling it on to your next door neighbour for 18c seems a good business model for them. Why would they give it up?

In fairness to EI, they are entitled to a level playing field in the market. The regulator should force them to buy the power for more than 9c/unit, but equally all the other electricity providers should be bound by the same rules.

I agree fully with the Part L comments. I have an instinctive dislike for these devices anyhow, for the reason you outline (reversing the 2.5:1 ratio). If you want to use one of these devices, then you would have to declare that you are using the immersion to supplement hot water. Click that button on the DEAP and watch what happens to your EPC/CPC :eek:

But I think that the refusal to pay for exported electricity will make these devices a commercial choice for householders - "export it for free, or use it to heat your water" - quite a few will opt for the latter.

The export meters are €340 usually. That's mad as well. You can buy a less smart, but straightforward and fully certified meter for €20 in the UK which could measure exports. You don't have to get one, especially if you aren't being paid for your power.

The 9c tariff has always been from year to year, renewed usually at this time of the year. They may or may not give it up sometime, but the main issue is that they aren't offering it to anyone after Jan 1st.

Coles · 05-11-2014 12:27am

recedite wrote: »

In fairness to EI, they are entitled to a level playing field in the market. The regulator should force them to buy the power for more than 9c/unit, but equally all the other electricity providers should be bound by the same rules.

Absolutely. QuentinGargan has made this point. The CER (under direction from the Minister if necessary) should set the price relative to the consumer price. Up to now there has been no certainty because the rate was being set on a year to year basis.

That's no basis for developing an industry.

bluesteel · 05-11-2014 2:08am

Coles wrote: »

How much do you pay for your electricity? Does that price reflect it's 'true economic value'? Perhaps you could explain what this term means to you? Thanks.

Are you aware of the cost of solar panels? The price has collapsed in the last 2-3 years. Check it out.

No. MicroGenerated Solar PV is becoming cost effective against coal/oil/methane regardless of the benefits of reducing our emissions of CO2. Seriously. Read up on it.

the variability in the reliability of the supply is a significant negative factor. Colm McCarthy has written on this.
1 MW of reliable, predictable electricity is more useful than sporadic supply Can you admit this? Then you've the admin overhead of dealing with you lads.

The cost is falling anyway - if it becomes economic in the future on its own great, the notion that Irish taxes/electricity rates should be used to help speed up the economies of scale is silly. A real Eamon Ryan idea. If PV were truly economic in the Irish climate we'd have large arrays like in Spain. We don't because the prices haven't collapsed by as much as you're making out.

as someone else points out :

Buying it for 9c and selling it on to your next door neighbour for 18c seems a good business model for them. Why would they give it up?

why do you think they can't be arsed dealing with small suppliers - why don't they pay 1c even? It'd be a bargain for them surely. Why don't Airtricity get in on the cheap energy source?

Micro generation is great for small holders to reduce their own supply and so reduce CO2 - messing with the grid? not so much.

You describe it as theft earlier - because they were paying less than consumer rate? Get real. Is it theft to turn down a supplier?

I'm not an electrical engineer BTW, but clearly you're not either.

BTW Feel free to link to impartial studies of the competitiveness of PV.

quentingargan · 05-11-2014 2:16am

bluesteel wrote: »

BTW Feel free to link to impartial studies of the competitiveness of PV.

Like this?

Electric Ireland Stops Feed In Tariff for Microgenerators

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