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Teachers behave like children at their conferences

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    #122
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Is fluency in mathematics important for a primary school teacher?

    Fluency in the basics of addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions, decimals, time, money, weight, distance, volume, temperature, money, angles, the language of problem solving, yes.

    Beyond that? Junior Cert Higher Level covers algebra, Linear and Quadratic equations, sets and functions, statistics, arithmetic, coordinate geometry, trig. theorems, rational/real/irrational numbers.


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    #123
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,500 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    The booing was for his sexism, implying only boys do honours maths. But please don't let your blinkered anti -teacher stance get in the way of the truth .



    No. The first booing and guffawing occurred when he mentioned honors maths. Fact. Go and listen to it again.


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    #124
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    An File wrote: »
    Fluency in the basics of addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions, decimals, time, money, weight, distance, volume, temperature, money, angles, the language of problem solving, yes.

    Beyond that? Junior Cert Higher Level covers algebra, Linear and Quadratic equations, sets and functions, statistics, arithmetic, coordinate geometry, trig. theorems, rational/real/irrational numbers.

    So are Junior Cert (Ordinary level) English and Irish are, likewise, good enough to teach English and Irish to primary school children?


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    #125
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,057 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Would you care to answer Pherekydes question:

    So, do the teachers need honours level English or Irish?

    Seriously? THIS is your way of backing up your point? I'm convinced now that you really have no idea if there is relationship between hons subject and ability to teach it, so after four sidesteps and no backup I'm leaving this here. PM me if you actually do post something that makes your point.

    In answer to Pheredyke and you: the same - demonstrate a solid knowledge of the syllabus you're teaching, then examine the rest of the candidates abilities.

    I really can not understand why I keep having to bring it back to this point or why you have no wish (or ability?) to discuss it.

    As I said, PM me your on-topic rebuttal. Four chances is enough in-thread, I believe.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #126
    Cantremember
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Cantremember


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Only the very uneducated would fail the first part of your process above, for maths. Moving on to the credentials, it's not unreasonable to suggest that Higher Level maths is important for primary school teachers.

    Taking the first OED definition of unreasonable as "not guided by good sense" I disagree with you. Primary school teachers do not need higher level LC Maths to teach the level they do. I think its a stunt by Quinn to try to appear innovative and is guided by political needs rather than educational.

    Of course if he dumbs down honours maths so that the new LC HONS is actually the old pass course then it makes educational sense. But he wouldn't be doing that, would he?


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    #127
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Seriously? THIS is your way of backing up your point? I'm convinced now that you really have no idea if there is relationship between hons subject and ability to teach it, so after four sidesteps and no backup I'm leaving this here. PM me if you actually do post something that makes your point.

    In answer to Pheredyke and you: the same - demonstrate a solid knowledge of the syllabus you're teaching, then examine the rest of the candidates abilities.

    I really can not understand why I keep having to bring it back to this point or why you have no wish (or ability?) to discuss it.

    As I said, PM me your on-topic rebuttal. Four chances is enough in-thread, I believe.

    My queries throughout have been concerning your repeated assertions that one must only have enough knowledge of a subject to match the contents of the relevant syllabus. I don't think that's a good standard for aspiring teachers - they should aim for (and we should look for) mastery of a subject.


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    #128
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    If you want to be able to teach maths at any level, you need to be totally confident in working with numbers, and have a good understanding of WHY you do certain things in a certain way.

    Ordinary leaving cert maths is a very low bar for a teacher to pass. It is possible to pass it even if you absolutely hate maths just by rote learning. Higher level maths actually requires work and a little aptitude for maths. This is why being able to pass ordinary maths is not enough for anyone who wants to teach the subject.

    If you are a 10 year old child learning how to work with fractions, it is enough to be able to get through the problem slowly, and make a few mistakes.
    If you are teaching, you need to be at a much higher standard of fluency with the concepts. Teachers who find maths difficult, and are not confident working with numbers themselves transmit this to the kids they are teaching. If kids are taught to fear maths by an teacher who is not confident in the subject themselves they may never be able to get to grips with it properly in later life.

    Primary teachers do not have to teach a massive amount of material. The most valuable thing they do is impart curiosity for the subject and a solid base of knowledge into their students. You can't do that if you struggle with the subject yourself. And that goes for every subject, not just maths.


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    #129
    Daisies
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Daisies


    Surely if we are going to go down thus road then the law makers in this country need to have relevant qualifications. The minister for education should have a relevant background. How can someone advise on changes if they are not at ground level seeing what needs to be done. Yes, in an ideal world all teachers would have HL in all subjects that they teach but until the uptake if HL maths is increased, all that will do is deter potentially excellent teachers from their path.

    FWIW, I got an A2 in HL maths in the LC, did a further year of university level maths. I enjoy mathematics and understand it but I would mot be able to teach primary school maths. I don't have the patience, or the ability to being things to a 7 years old level of understanding.


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    #130
    Pompette
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Pompette


    c_man wrote: »
    I don't see why the argument for primary teachers having to have a certain standard of Irish, doesn't translate to Maths...


    It does and it doesn't.

    If you want to teach a language you HAVE to be fluent in it. So you therefore need to have acquired it to a high level, hence HL leaving cert Irish.
    Imagine someone teaching English who isn't fluent in it....


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    #131
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    I have to applaud the government and media in diverting the populations attention once again from the very real detrimental aspects of the education sector.

    Once again the easy target, teachers, are scapegoated. Ireland joined the illustrious nations of Malta, Cyprus, Croatia and the United Kingdom in being the only countries to actually decrease the education budget from 2012 to 2013. Irish teachers have the highest face to face time in the EU with students. They also have one of the largest pupil teacher ratios.

    The jealousy and vitriol which other professional and otherwise express toward teachers is embarrassing as it is based largely on ignorance. This thread is a perfect example. The recent PISA results were placed Ireland as fourth in terms of literacy across the OECD. I missed the congratulatory thread for that but then again I wasn't expecting it.


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    #132
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    I don't know about higher level maths for primary school teachers.

    It is not about the actual teaching of maths to primary school children it about positioning primary teaching to attract very strong academic candidates, higher level maths is strongly correlates with academic ability. Whether we need primary teachers with that level of academic ability is another question.


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    #133
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Pompette wrote: »
    It does and it doesn't.

    If you want to teach a language you HAVE to be fluent in it. So you therefore need to have acquired it to a high level, hence HL leaving cert Irish.
    Imagine someone teaching English who isn't fluent in it....

    Same applies for maths. Maths is effectively a language - you are either happy, confident and fluent in its use, or not.


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    #134
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    they should aim for (and we should look for) mastery of a subject.

    Saying that LC honours constitutes "mastery" of a subject is a bit of an insult to anyone with a Masters or a PhD.
    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    Primary teachers do not have to teach a massive amount of material. The most valuable thing they do is impart curiosity for the subject and a solid base of knowledge into their students. You can't do that if you struggle with the subject yourself. And that goes for every subject, not just maths.

    Who's to say they struggle with the subject, though? Struggling with the complexities of the LC Honours exam is no indication at all that you'll struggle to teach the basics.


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    #135
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    The recent PISA results were placed Ireland as fourth in terms of literacy across the OECD. I missed the congratulatory thread for that but then again I wasn't expecting it.

    Maybe because Ireland was not in fourth place in the reading tests, but shared joint seventh place with Canada and Taiwan?


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    #136
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    Considering that their job is a 9:00-2:40 with a 15 minute break and 45 minute lunch I don't think it's unfair to expect primary school teachers to have a higher level pass in the three core subjects. Come on FFS they work less than 5 hours a day, get weekends, Christmas, Easter, Summer and some of you think they deserve "extra remuneration" for doing higher level maths?

    Get real. I would argue that secondary school teaching is a bigger joke (and I believe it is) but at least teachers there can be held accountable to some extent for their students grades due to standardized testing at JC and LC level. The same cannot be said of primary school teachers.


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    #137
    Daisies
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Daisies


    An File wrote: »
    Saying that LC honours constitutes "mastery" of a subject is a bit of an insult to anyone with a Masters or a PhD.



    Who's to say they struggle with the subject, though? Struggling with the complexities of the LC Honours exam is no indication at all that you'll struggle to teach the basics.

    And to add to this a lot of people I know who did OL did so because to do well in HL maths requires work, a lot of additional time that they could dedicate to other subjects. These people would have been able for HL but getting a C on HL verus using the time to get an A in HL biology (for an example) meant more.


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    #138
    Daisies
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Daisies


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    Considering that their job is a 9:00-2:40 with a 15 minute break and 45 minute lunch I don't think it's unfair to expect primary school teachers to have a higher level pass in the three core subjects. Come on FFS they work less than 5 hours a day, get weekends, Christmas, Easter, Summer and some of you think they deserve "extra remuneration" for doing higher level maths?

    Get real. I would argue that secondary school teaching is a bigger joke (and I believe it is) but at least teachers there can be held accountable to some extent for their students grades due to standardized testing at JC and LC level. The same cannot be said of primary school teachers.

    Ah here, it always comes back to the same "sure they only work half the time". As a previous poster said, if their working conditions are so good why didn't you go into teaching?


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    #139
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    Come on FFS they work less than 5 hours a day

    That's bullshit as well.


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    #140
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Daisies wrote: »
    And to add to this a lot of people I know who did OL did so because to do well in HL maths requires work, a lot of additional time that they could dedicate to other subjects. These people would have been able for HL but getting a C on HL verus using the time to get an A in HL biology (for an example) meant more.

    So they were afraid of hard work?

    Are these the type of people we want teaching our kids?


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    #141
    wandatowell
    Registered Users Posts: 8,435 ✭✭✭wandatowell


    Hells bells 10 pages in 2+ hours


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    #142
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    So they were afraid of hard work?

    Are these the type of people we want teaching our kids?

    Deliberately highlighting the wrong part of the quote. Silly, sensationalist, rhetorical questions. Casting snide aspersions at an entire profession.

    Classy stuff!


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    #143
    Daisies
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Daisies


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    So they were afraid of hard work?

    Are these the type of people we want teaching our kids?

    No, they knew if they dedicated the extra time to this one subject, their other 6 would suffer. And I'm not just talking about teachers. Accountants, pharmacists, solicitors


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    #144
    Pompette
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Pompette


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Same applies for maths. Maths is effectively a language - you are either happy, confident and fluent in its use, or not.

    Yeah you could be happy and confident in using maths but not have it to an advanced level.

    Whereas if you can't speak English, I don't know how you could teach it to others.


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    #145
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    Considering that their job is a 9:00-2:40 with a 15 minute break and 45 minute lunch I don't think it's unfair to expect primary school teachers to have a higher level pass in the three core subjects. Come on FFS they work less than 5 hours a day, get weekends, Christmas, Easter, Summer and some of you think they deserve "extra remuneration" for doing higher level maths?

    Get real. I would argue that secondary school teaching is a bigger joke (and I believe it is) but at least teachers there can be held accountable to some extent for their students grades due to standardized testing at JC and LC level. The same cannot be said of primary school teachers.

    Have you ever had to give a presentation in work?
    Have you ever had to give one for 5-6 hours?
    How much preparation would you put into organising your presentation?
    Would the specific audience to whom you are delivering you presentation change the manner in which you present your information?
    Have you ever managed a team?
    Have you ever managed a team of 30 people?
    How was that experience? Have you ever managed a team which had very little enthusiasm or initiative?
    How was that experience?

    Now imagine all that with children and adolescents.

    The amount of ignorance is hard to swallow.


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    #146
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    An File wrote: »
    Deliberately highlighting the wrong part of the quote. Silly, sensationalist, rhetorical questions. Casting snide aspersions at an entire profession.

    Classy stuff!

    I'm not. I'm specifically stating that these are the type of people we don't want teaching! Not commenting on those that are teaching.


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    #147
    Amy teehee
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭Amy teehee


    The problem stems from the fact that they aren't 100% fluent at stuff like long division. They struggle to get the sum right the first time around and have to keep referring back to mathemagic 5 before they finally finish the example problem. So yes, they "know" how to do it but their colossal struggles with it make a terrible impression on the kids - they end up thinking "**** this stuff is so hard even teacher can't do it! Maths is so hard I give up!"

    Source - 1st, 2nd and 3rd class maths for me. Didn't do any in 4th, 5th or 6th. Anyone who thinks maths is being taught well is a complacent fool.


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    #148
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    An File wrote: »



    Who's to say they struggle with the subject, though? Struggling with the complexities of the LC Honours exam is no indication at all that you'll struggle to teach the basics.

    Yes it is. If you are not able to pass leaving cert honours maths, then you clearly struggle with the subject. Anyone who is comfortable with basic maths could pass leaving cert honours with a bit of hard work.


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    #149
    YFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    So, if the primary teachers need to have honours maths, what about college lecturers in maths? They need to have worked for CERN and been to the moon before they can teach?


    As the syllabus stands, they have no need for honours maths. They need to look at the syllabus.

    They would have completed a PhD and likely a number of Post Docs


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    #150
    Cantremember
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Cantremember


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    So they were afraid of hard work?

    Are these the type of people we want teaching our kids?

    Higher Level LC Maths is unnecessary for teaching primary level Maths. Talking about "fluency" and "confidence " really is exposing the waffle at the heart of the idea. As is the statement about "the type of people" we want teaching "our kids". These are the type of people already teaching our kids and in my experience they generally do a very good job. Of course if we think that only the best is good enough for our little one then we will be flying in the super duper teacher from far far away. The best things are always far away.


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    #151
    Bananatop
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 166 ✭✭Bananatop


    I've an honours degree in Mathematics. I'm a primary school teacher. My Maths qualification doesn't help me teach maths to children, my teaching qualification, along with my experience, does. I have a huge interest in Maths, and I like to share my love of it with the children. But if I don't package the information in a way the children will enjoy and understand, I might as well be flinging faeces at them!

    Saying that though, I don't see the harm in having honours Maths seeing as it's required in Gaeilge. Ruairí Quinn is very much disliked by many teachers, he doesn't seem to have any grasp about what life in a school is like. He's the equivalent of that crap teacher in school that nobody ever listens to, and just gets heckled as a result. I think he needs to do an honours course in 'How To Deal With People Who Clearly Aren't Happy With You Because You Want To Leave A Legacy To The Detriment Of The Education System Campaign'!


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